axe technique

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 paul mitchell 17 Nov 2018

AS a novice,I wd be interested in critiques of this climber's axe technique.

youtube.com/watch?v=JBgmUmlvCFg&

 pass and peak 17 Nov 2018
In reply to paul mitchell:

Watched the whole thing thinking at any moment he was going to come off, was a climb definitely at the top end of his grade! Trouble with climbing Ice is, it's a lot about how the pick feels in the ice as much as how it looks, think I might have wanted to plant my feet and picks a bit harder/deeper, there again you can get pumped trying to get them out, all in all he didn't seam to be doing a bad job. Only criticism I would have is in the last few seconds of the video, he Connects his plate in guide mode to bring up his second with only a quickdraw, bad form that!!!  

 angry pirate 17 Nov 2018
In reply to paul mitchell:

He does look like he's pushing his grade there. A few little things that I spotted: he would be better climbing with one tool above the other and maintaining a triangle keeping his centre of balance below one tool but I'm sure we've all binned that technique when getting a bit scared and knackered; his screws are a bit close together at the final belay so if one goes, they both go; at one point he places both tools right next to each other, ditto; he's definitely getting pumped on his left hand as he is losing tool control, I find that running my thumb up the back of the grip helps prevent this. 

Other than that, it was an exciting video to watch and I'm not sure I'd have made a tidier ascent (I'd probably have sworn a bit more tbh)

 TobyA 17 Nov 2018
In reply to pass and peak:

I thought his timidity in placing his tools was terrifying. It show what you can pull on but particularly in cold ice like that I reckoned he was rolling a dice on every stick he pulled on. Swing it like you mean it!

Other than that it confirms what I've found filming ice climbing from a helmet cam - jeez it's boring. It's amazing how involving it feels to you climbing at the time compared to how utterly tedious the head cam footage turns out!

 

Post edited at 08:15
 Pay Attention 17 Nov 2018
In reply to paul mitchell:

Paul, you should get more experience in lower grades before going for the IV.   It would help you to sharpen your picks til they're like razors; they don't seem to stick.

Practise your swing so it follows through in one direction without waver.  You've got a bit of a tendency to "chicken wing" it at the point of contact, especially when you're getting tired.  Maybe  you should spend some more time working with weights at the gym?

HTH

 nniff 17 Nov 2018
In reply to paul mitchell:

He's not letting his tools do the work - he's keeping hand and axe rigid and smiting the ice instead of stopping his hand a bit short and letting the axe whip through.  In consequence, he's over-gripping, getting tired and getting stupid arm (axe and arm twisting instead of applying force in line).  Compare and contrast:

vimeo.com/22993356

 

 HammondR 17 Nov 2018
In reply to nniff: oh my goodness. That IS a film. 

 

 TobyA 17 Nov 2018
In reply to nniff:

I've watched that House video a number of times now over the years, its interesting that probably in the past I was mightily impressed by his calmness on hard solo climbing and didn't notice the routes are relatively stepped out. On the first route at least House is very sensibly putting his tools on every stick into a 'pit' which is in-effect a pre-made or semi pre-made placement. The Icelandic boys are on what looks likes a line that hasn't been climbed since it formed, or at least quite some time has gone by since it was last climbed. But of course House is probably one of the most experienced ice climbers around as well,

I reckon it's probably about 10 to 15 degrees colder in the Icelandic video. I think many UK climbers (not you) probably under-estimate what a big difference the temperature makes to ice climbing! For me I know a few body-lengths of pure vertical ice can go from being the living end oh-my-God-even-though-I'm-an-atheist-please-don't-let-me-die kind of stuff to "OH YEAH BABY! Come and take your photos people! I'm an ice-climbing GOD!" when it's -17 to when it's +1 and a bit of sun shine on you.

 TobyA 17 Nov 2018
In reply to nniff:

Looked a bit more at the Icelandic chaps videos - seems it was a new route. His mate, who has an Italian sounding name so I guess why they are speaking English to each other - does a fine job of leading what looks like a really brittle and scary WI5+ top pitch. He's tapping quite gently to get sticks but more because it looks like big bits would probably fall off the vertical pillar if you hit it much harder! The super-gentle push the crampon points in tell quite a story! :-0 youtube.com/watch?v=cqH3Fdiwh_w&

 PaulTclimbing 17 Nov 2018
In reply to paul mitchell:

The American clip is on Fat/steeped out plastic ice(low down a joy). The feel of the axe going in is a thunk or thwunk, a solid shudde comes down the axe. Its been climbed a lot. A mini bucket forms and the pick wont skitter or fly out. His technique has to be spot on to get up that on the technical stuff and he's obviously strong as an ox swinging in line, nose shaft axe head straight onto the target placement. Thwack thwack step step, triangulated. Cant afford to fall. Can hang around for a very long time if pushed probably down climb it too.

In clips out there where there's a fall, there's often multiple thwacks in brittle ice of two axes at the approx. same height or ice stress point and a horizontal fracture appears after dinner plating and your gone. ta ta. They're often tired and lost technique. So stay aerobic/breathing and think to guarantee that placement if its got that hard/serious as you'll be reducing lactic.

In your vid there's very cold brittle ice. It could dinner plate in sheets up to a metre, but seems well bonded. So when he thwacks at it above his head on the steep bit he needs to be strong technique( in line nose/handle/shaft/ v sharp pick/let axe head flick into ice to get a pick down capture) to control it and stop the axe head deflecting/skittering as that will tire/fatigue. Target practice visualising a bulls eye on critical placements helps you hit the point/be accurate/minimise effort, excavate the deeper pick placement. You should be able to comfortably hit 1,2 to rid/clear dinner plate and 3 or more times for the placement at the same point because you may have to clear crud or snow. On that ice and it will be more demanding and you could ping without bomber placements and it could take all day; or choose some of the easier featured ice to turn into the step/take effort off. He gets up some steep ice in line reaching past, but the bigger moves were a little under cooked- should be practiced as long reach pasts and need some rotation in the trunk and lock off of the lower arm, possibly, but when its very cold, its also very demanding. It may allow you to overflank an obstacle with reach, but be cautious because you will need to recover. Practice getting extra reach for the over/out of reach placement.  eg going into winter at the wall or around the house, when theres no ice like now, using an hooking between overhanging rock or tree branches and going around a tree one side overhanging on branches and feet moving feet up and pulling in may replicate this in safety and is like intervals. Don't damage trees/grit though. Lovely things them.

I only saw the first two screws worth...but you don't get a good captain without sailing a stormy sea...either and 4 screws in 50m shows it was hard. eh.

Post edited at 13:17
 pass and peak 17 Nov 2018
In reply to TobyA:

Your right, that looks as brittle as hell, you'd probably chop all the way down to the rock trying to get the kind of placement that makes me feel safe. like you say he did a dam good job on that video, bet his hands were cold!

 CurlyStevo 17 Nov 2018
In reply to nniff:

Not really a fair comparison as your vid is on a well hooked out route.

 CurlyStevo 17 Nov 2018
In reply to TobyA:

In Scotland the 09 and 10 winters were very cold it was below -20 several nights in a row in my friends aviemore cabin and one day we left the car at -20 to do eas Annie. Your right when it’s that cold it makes a big difference, you hit too hard and the whole lot dinner plates off and quite often you go with sticks where the ice looks a bit shattered (but you know / think the pick is in solid ice just far enough). There was a few sticks in the vid that looked a bit close together and a few times he hit above a bulge and went for it I winced, but over all it was a fairly solid lead, especially feet wise. Yes a few more glanced stick hits than he would have liked and pushing it a bit but not too crazy imo.

Post edited at 21:29
 Jim Fraser 19 Nov 2018
In reply to paul mitchell:

The guy appears to be trying to read the ice reasonably well in that he's not just thrashing out anywhere but often choosing spots where he's expecting a bit of a hook and maybe some softer ice. I can see what nniff means about the swing. 'The Book' says feet wide and axes narrow and he does a bit of that but of course you have to balance that against the state of the ice to prevent you relying upon two axe placements in the same dodgy brittle patch.  And we are talking cold and brittle. And no ready-made hooks or steps. So cut the guy some slack.

Like many of you, I'd have had the audio off ... 

Post edited at 02:11
 Ramon Marin 19 Nov 2018
In reply to paul mitchell:

Paul, I think the comments in here have been a bit harsh on this poor fella. Sure, he's technique is far from ideal, but we all had to break into a new grade not having the best of technique. The biggest failure for me was he wasn't reading the ice well, not picking the obvious indentations, or "pits" as Toby says, and hence making his life a bit harder for himself. The second main thing is that he's not swinging with enough intent. At the end of each swing you have to flick your wrist so you thrust the headweight nicely into the ice whilst preserving as much energy as possible (this fella is swinging with all his arm). His placements are too shallow for my liking. Third main thing is that he's not kicking his feet hard enough. It takes a good two or three kicks to make a nice platform for your feet so you can take weight off your arms and feel secure. 

 wilkinscl 20 Nov 2018
In reply to paul mitchell:

The biggest test is that he got up it, but he loses a few points for timidity, and body position.

Ice climbing, like aid climbing, is really procedural, the triangle technique helps keep the weight on feet, and body position for getting good solid sticks. Focusing on the sequence of movement keeps the fear at bay!

I like to repeat the mantra: "place, test, trust, forget" whilst climbing as I focuses the mind on getting a good sticks before moving on to the next. If you move on a shit one, and the panic builds, the next will likely be poor, and so on and so on until you fall off and break an ankle. (I have done this, it sucked)

 


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