advise on winter rack and equipment

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 mauraman 26 Oct 2018

Having soloed a few gullies (scottish I/II) I have some experience on low grade winter climbing and, conditions permitting, this winter I would like to progress to grade III. I will be climbing with a partner of similar experience. I have upgraded to 2 DMM fly axes and front point crampons. I have a full trad rack but no protection for ice. Given that we will not climb waterfalls but more likely snow/ice/mixed, I would like to know if it is necessary buying and carrying a couple of ice screws or more, or something like bulldogs/ice hooks, or nothing at all. Are any of these a necessity or at this grade is still possible to mostly find protection and belays on rock?

Thanks! 

Post edited at 11:16
 Webster 26 Oct 2018
In reply to mauraman:

all depends on the route! i always vary my rack accordingly. at that grade you are starting to get routes with significant ice pitches which would warrent more than 1 screw if not a happy soloist. equally you can choose routes with no ice at all. i would definately recomend at least 1 bull dog/warthog/terrier/spectre for any scottish (brittish) mixed at any grade where using a rope, they are so versatile. but they are by no means essential at grade 3. its very easy to pick a pure rock route with ample gear at grade III somewhere like the northern corries.

OP mauraman 26 Oct 2018
In reply to Webster:

Thanks. So, assuming that it is quite difficult to know from guide books how much ice there is on a given route and where the ice pitches are (I suppose it varies each season), it will be advisable to carrie 3/4 ice screws minimum and a couple of ice hooks all the time, just in case?

 subtle 26 Oct 2018
In reply to mauraman:

Ice screws are not cheap, but they can be a necessity.

Try and get two (its nearly Christmas, idea for presents) and possibly bulldog etc. as well as they are more versatile - and get your partner to get the same.

Avoid "ice" routes and go for classic gullies / mixed routes at grade III as you suggest- wait until things are in condition (not this weekend!) and go out, review conditions, make decisions on the day (not a bad thing to decide against one particular route and do another / nothing at all), stay safe and have fun - at grade III there are a lot of fun to be had   Good luck, fingers crossed for a good season.

OP mauraman 26 Oct 2018
In reply to subtle:

Thanks a lot, it sound like a plan! What do you think about starting with a 20 cm screw and a 15 cm, plus 1 ice hook. I will then ask my partner to get a 15/16cm and a 13 cm, plus another bulldog. is that enough as a beginners rack? If not, what other lenght of screws you suggest?

 HeMa 26 Oct 2018
In reply to mauraman:

Based on my feeble one week in Scottland... you can most likely survive without bulldoss/specters and ice screws, if you select the routes you climbs.

How ever, a few screws per climber (16cm or 19cm work horses) might be nice, as would one or two bulldogs per climber. The latter can to an extent be also substituted with reg. pegs.

If you have to choose, get the Bulldog(s) first, as they work like a charm on frozen moss, dirt and also as pegs. And avoid waterfall gullies, until you have a few screws.

 Webster 26 Oct 2018
In reply to mauraman:

Its pretty rare that you cant tell from the guidebook or the ground if a route needs screws. for any pitch requiring more than a couple of screws and you are going to be able to see it! plus with a bit of expereince you will know from the crag if it needs screws or not. pretty much any grade III on the ben is going to be on ice of some description for example, where as most grade IIIs in the northern corries will be snowed up rock.

If in dobt i carry two screws, a bull dog and terrier on any route. its incredibly rare to find ice thick enough for a 20cm screw anywhere in the uk, and if you do you are going to be on a pure ice route and need 8+ screws! mid size screws are the most usefull - 12-16cm depending on the brand. i would recomend getting a 13cm and 15cm or equivalent as a start point.

 JLS 26 Oct 2018
In reply to mauraman:

I can sympathise. In my short winter career I never developed much of an ability to glean from guide book descriptions any real sense of the terrain that would be encountered and the likely required protection. It seemed to me that the guidebooks almost assumed that winter climbing had been learned via an apprenticeship model and that by the time you were on the sharp end, selecting the rack, you’d know what you were about, with enough experience to interpolate and extrapolate from your back catalogue of times when more experienced partners were calling the shots.

I think things are thus just so the experienced guys in the know can laugh at you, setting off up, what will turn out to be snowed-up rock routes, with your twevle ice screws and a deadman.

OP mauraman 26 Oct 2018
In reply to Webster:

Great! thanks to all for the advise.

 Webster 26 Oct 2018
In reply to JLS:

I know your post is a little bit tongue in cheek, but it really doesnt take a huge amount of mountain nouse to know what kind of crag you are on, and the guidebook will often tell you that in the crag intro page. if not then the pictures will be a huge givaway. Beinn udlaidh = seepage water ice, Ben Nevis = snow ice, northern correis = snowed up rock, hells lum = seepage water ice, much of the southern highlands = turf.

It pays to do a bit of research about a crag before visiting. if your guidebook isnt much help then the internet often will be.

 Pay Attention 26 Oct 2018
In reply to mauraman:

Psst!

Do yer wanna buy a deadman? 

You'll need it for the routes you'll be doing.

It's in good nick and will last a lifetime.

 

2
 olddirtydoggy 26 Oct 2018
In reply to mauraman:

I've got a couple of BD peckers on the winter mixed rack that have been very useful. Not designed for winter climbing but they have been great when needed.

1
 Misha 26 Oct 2018
In reply to mauraman:

As others have said, whether you will need screws will depend on the route. You can usually tell from the guide book topo (does it look like the route follows a gully or ice flow?) and description (does it mention ice?). Bear in mind that even if it's an ice route you will still need rock gear (nuts and hexes) to supplement the screws (unless you're doing Euro water ice).

16cm is the workhorse for Scottish ice. Ideally you'd have longer screws for belays but the ice might not be thick enough and a lot of the time the belay will be on rock gear anyway but it depends on the route. So if you want to get into ice routes I'd recommend you and your partner each getting say two 16cm screws and a 19cm screw. A 10cm 'baby' screw can be useful sometimes but generally you'll get more use out of 16cm. Six screws should see you up most icy grade IIIs, as long as the belays are on rock gear.

OP mauraman 26 Oct 2018
In reply to Misha:

Yes , it make sense. Of course the trad gear will be on the rack, plus the screws, as you suggested. No Euro ice as yet. I'm from Italy so at some point I will probably head there as well but at the moment I am in love with the mountains in this country. I hope this winter will offer opportunities to head to the lakes and wales as well as scotland, so i want to be as prepared as possible. Thanks for the heads up!

OP mauraman 26 Oct 2018
In reply to Pay Attention:

Hello and thanks but I will try to borrow one and will see if I get to use it.  Not keen in buying one right now. From what I read in most posts, more often than not a snow bucket backed up with a buried axe belay seems to be the common choise, rather than carry a bulky and heavy piece of equipment.

OP mauraman 26 Oct 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I imagine they work well on iced turf or as pitons as they are similar to the Terriers, have you driven it on ice too?

 Pay Attention 27 Oct 2018
In reply to mauraman:

>   Not keen in buying [a deadman] .... more often than not a snow bucket backed up with a buried axe belay seems to be the common choise, rather than carry a bulky and heavy piece of equipment.

And now you know why the deadman will last a lifetime...

Is anyone else reading this interested in buying an unusual wall decoration ?

Seriously, you'd find some long slings + light rock pro more use on your first outings than ice screws.

From Italy?  Which part? Are you familiar with the gulliver web site?

 olddirtydoggy 27 Oct 2018
In reply to mauraman:

I use them like you would a piton, never used them on turf and ice as they are tiny.

1
OP mauraman 27 Oct 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Cool Thanks!

OP mauraman 27 Oct 2018
In reply to Pay Attention:

I am from Asti, near Torino. quite close to the alps but I am not familiar with the climbing scene in italy at all. I will have a look at Gulliver, now that you mentioned it! I have been working abroad since I was 22 so I have discovered climbing in other countries and quite late in life. Did some sport climbing in Italy and a few easy alpine summer ascents on rock , all great but most of the time climbed in warm weather, hence the reason I want to get to grip with winter climbing before I even think about returning to the alps; besides the climbing in uk is great! I am also getting to know  the rich climbing history in this country and the excellent strong ethic (which I admire) so I have enough to keep me busy, learning  and motivated.

 Pay Attention 27 Oct 2018
In reply to mauraman:

There are some short 2 screw practice icefalls near Bardonecchia.  Gulliver gives details.

OP mauraman 01 Nov 2018
In reply to Pay Attention:

Great, Thanks!

 

 Mr. Lee 01 Nov 2018
In reply to mauraman:

I wouldn't be placing bulldogs high on the list of priorities if it was me. I tended to use them in Scotland in iced up cracks but mostly got by without them. At the grades you mention I wouldn't expect too many essential bulldog placements. Warthogs were generally better in frozen turf, provided enough of it. As far as screws go, worth bearing in mind that the shafts can be tied off with a sling if the ice is a little too thin to fully sink. I'd stick therefore to 16cm screws until you find yourself with a decent stock. Then you can start to diversify. For Scottish gully type stuff a few screws will probably be plenty. The belays will nearly always be rock gear. 

OP mauraman 02 Nov 2018
In reply to Mr. Lee:

thanks Big Lee, yes i will probably stick to gullies routes for a while and what is out there. i never used an ice screw but from the literature I read I did get that if the screw doesn't sink all the way in, a sling around the shaft will eliminate the leverage. it make sense and I think i will follow your advice and go for 16 cm screws. with regards to bulldogs, I tought that they were a more versatile solution to the warthogs, as they double as pitons and I have to decide if I buy warthogs or ice hooks. Again, from literature only, it seems that the use of warthogs is fading.  How many warthogs and what lenghts will you suggest to start with? 


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