UKH

The SMC Scottish Winter guidebook describes 3 star routes as those “combining superb climbing with line, character and situation”. Can someone expand upon those three categories please?

What are your personal highest starred winter routes and what criteria do you go by to judge?

They're not stars, they're snow flakes.  

More usefully, those criteria are probably exactly what you think they are. 'Superb climbing' is just that, good quality sustained moves. Line is the feature the route follows so routes with strong lines like following a corner or groove all the way will rate higher. Character and situation are the feel of the thing and how exposed it is.

Personally I think quality moves trump all the rest but I think there's been a tendency in SMC guides to favour line as the most important.

I share some agreement here, certainly for short, cragging Rock routes.

However this is a winter climbing thread, where line is important. I would not be so crass as to claim all ice climbing is the same but it is samier than mixed climbing and here is where the line, length and scenery come in.

Limit the stars to the quality of the moves and ice routes could all be 4* or 0* depending on how much you enjoy it. 

Yes, there's much in that. Ice is dull, at least in terms of the interest in moves.

To be more precise then, I think the importance of line to an ice climb has often been carried over into snowed up rock routes where the quality of the moves is more important, to me anyway.

Length, climbing moves and /or quality pitches, line and remoteness and/or scenery for me!

3* climbs for me have been:

central grooves, SCnL- Glen Coe

Shangh-High, eastern rampart Beinn Eighe.

Fiddler’s Nose, sgurr an fhiddlear

The sea the sea, Atlantic wall, Slioch

War and Peace, #4 buttress CnL NC

Central Buttress, triple buttress Beinn Eighe

Supersleuth, Mainreachan buttress Fuar Tholl.

I realise most of those are at the highest end of my grade and snowed-up rock routes. I suspect my experience of them and of ticking them has made me very biased toward those. Struggling to think of a V that’s achieved the same wow factor:

I particularly liked things like 

Savage slit, #4 CnL NC

Crest Route, SCnL Glen Coe

Purple Blaze, beinn an lochain, arrochar

recess route, north peak, Cobbler

There are others I am sure

I found Poacher's Fall (V 5)

Slav Route (VI 5)

to be super entertaining though

I would also add: Messiah (VI 7)

Probably because we got it in excellent nick and fat with ice. It was a VI on that day!

Gully of the Gods (VI 6)

That, in contrast with Samurai on the same hill is a good example of line being given greater weighting than the quality of the climbing. Shang-High has a strong line and Samurai doesn't but the climbing on Samurai was much more memorable yet Shang-High is *** and Samurai is *.

Both great but for some reason, Shang-high sticks more in my head than Samurai ! It can’t have been the company that’s making the difference though…

the latter probably deserves as many stars as the former !

That can be fixed.

That's got everything, amazing line, interesting climbing, situation and bags of character. **** for sure. In fact, it might be the definitive four star route!

 My personal highest starred routes are linked to memories. Many routes I've climbed melt into the past and are quite hard to distinguish from others. Apart from epics the exceptions are routes that I climbed on my own.  In Scotland Blue Ribband in Glen Coe, Steall falls and Crowberry Gully left fork (which terrified me) really stick out.  The other route that I don't think I'll ever forget is Slipstream. An ice route in Canada with fairly easy climbing and a scary descent.

The traverse of the Aonach Eagach is my favourite winter route. Long, serious, views and mostly climbed in good company. It can me quite macho to list lots of hard routes but the best days out I have had climbing, winter and summer, have been dictated by the company, not the routes.

Sounds like there's a story there.

I think climbing out the top of an inversion as I led the ramp on Smith's Route was infinite stars.

I've done some of the easier ones on your list. Savage Slit and Crest Route are great but not 4 star routes IMO. Central Buttress the same; could have more continuity of quality climbing.

Not 4* but 3* thus far as per post.

I think I meant Central Grooves (Winter) (VII 7)

not the variation which I haven’t done yet.

I meant the Beinn Eighe one

Fair enough! It is a bit uneven but still happy to give it a 3* in my opinion. Long, great place and views. Some excellent climbing along the way and a crux to remember. Not sure about 4* right enough!

Winter lines are no different than summer ones. You start with the line, it needs to stand out (often a clear weakness, but a clear path of nothingness can also be a ”line”). Then the actual climbing, it needs to be interesting, varied and imho sustained. Off the few lines I have climbed in Scotland, I can honestly say that Central Buttress (Winter) (VI 7) was a good line, long and had varied climbing. I do think the climbing was not that sustained (and IMHO at parts also the ”line” was missing). Where as Para Andy (VI 7) seemed to actually have a much more evidence line, and also sustained climbing (especially since when I climbed it, we soloed the first pitch,  but it was in all essense just a snow plod). That being said, DaveHKs picture makes you realize that perhaps a more logical line can be taken. That being said, the belay above the roof was really athmospheric.