Walk Before You Run - winter skills for hill runners

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Who wouldn't want a bit of that? But learn the winter walking essentials before you try running!

There are a lot of strong runners out there, but those coming to winter hill running without a grounding in mountain skills may not appreciate the severity of the challenge posed by snow on the hills, says fell running guide Keri Wallace. Here she discusses safety advice for winter hill running, looks at the specific demands of Scottish winter, and seeks top tips from the pros about how to get started.



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1
 Garethza 21 Dec 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Great article. Any tips on keeping your feet warm? As we all know, running shoes are generally 'breathable' so all that winter wetness is surely going to give you cold feet pretty quick. Are there any special socks or goretex-y shoes that minimise this? 

 Marek 21 Dec 2020
In reply to Garethza:

Perhaps I'm weird, but I've never had trouble with cold feet when running in snow as long as the rest of me was warm. Obviously once you stop it all changes, but then a change of socks/shoes is usually on the cards. Actually, the only time I remember cold feet is at the start of the second day of a mountain marathon when I'd been stood around too long at the start in blowing powder. Feet were then cold for the next 5 minutes till we had to wade through a river. The water actually felt almost tepid and my feet warmed up instantly. They were fine the rest of the day.

I'm not convinced by goretex lined shoes (snow/water will quickly go in over the top). Long waterproof socks (you can get knee length ones) might be better, but I've never liked the feel of waterproof sock for long days out (blister risk).

 BuzyG 21 Dec 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Great article well worth a read and good links to further reading.

It's interesting being a hill walker who jogs the occasional mountain marathon.  I take all my walking kit with me in winter. Then if there is an opportunity to run some sections of my route I will run them.  I treat it as making good safe progress.  No records or PB's to set. One advantage of being a little older I guess.

Neoprene socks over cotton sports socks keeps the cold and damp out.  You may need bigger shoes though.  Me I wear my boots.

 Garethza 21 Dec 2020
In reply to Marek:

I don't suffer from cold feet usually but I haven't tried running in the white stuff just yet, but thats some interesting feedback, perhaps my concern was not really something to be concerned about.. until you stop obviously! 

 Marek 21 Dec 2020
In reply to Garethza:

Yeh, I think there's something about the leg/foot action when running that keeps the circulation going well into the toes. A really bad mistake is to assume the same is true when cycling!

In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Can someone explain FKT please. I am clearly too old and uncool. 

1
In reply to Presley Whippet:

It’s just the Fastest Known Time for a particular round or route I believe. 

 Nigel Coe 21 Dec 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

FKT = 'First Known Traverse' = 'A record, I think'

8
 George Ormerod 21 Dec 2020
In reply to Stuart Williams:

https://fastestknowntime.com/

There's also a good podcast of the same name, with a nice international flavour, including the recent Pennine Way records.

Post edited at 18:55
 shuffle 21 Dec 2020
In reply to Garethza:

Wool socks do the trick for me, though if it’s really wet underfoot I might wear waterproof socks if I’m planning on being out for a long time. I have Dexshell and wear a thin merino liner sock underneath. I’ve not had any issues with blisters from them.

 barry donovan 21 Dec 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

‘Heuristic’ . .surfaces again - but how do people say it ?  Hoyer istic like the German or her istic like the brits ?  

 mountainbagger 21 Dec 2020
In reply to barry donovan:

> ‘Heuristic’ . .surfaces again - but how do people say it ?  Hoyer istic like the German or her istic like the brits ?  

I pronounce it somewhere between the two and hope nobody notices!

 mountainbagger 21 Dec 2020
In reply to Garethza:

> I don't suffer from cold feet usually but I haven't tried running in the white stuff just yet, but thats some interesting feedback, perhaps my concern was not really something to be concerned about.. until you stop obviously! 

I find wearing warm tights/leggings/trousers (when it isn't blindingly obvious that you should be wearing them) useful. Keeping the blood warm on its way seems to help the extremities. I never get cold feet running, even if they get wet. That's in contrast to Cycling, where I get numb tootsies even in the autumn!

 dovebiker 21 Dec 2020

On the subject of preventing cold feet, oversize shoes and thicker woolly socks are the solution - I've done ultras in the arctic winter where it gets to -25C and colder. In extreme cold you can get away with non-waterproof footwear but even in extreme condition you can encounter overflow which is where excess meltwater sits above frozen lakes and rivers - effectively a slush layer under the snow that soaks footwear so prefer to use a waterproof shoe. The article doesn't mention that you can get winter running shoes with carbide studs from a number of makers which work very well on hard ice / neve meaning you don't really need micro-spikes. The action of running does actively 'pump' the blood through your feet, but you do get a condensation build-up in your footwear so regular sock changes are essential. Another tip from extreme ultra experience is don't over-dress and try to avoid wetting-through your base layers as it can chill you if you stop. Means you need to carry extra layers + an insulated jacket and pants for when you do stop. 

 deepsoup 21 Dec 2020
In reply to Garethza:

(And others, on the subject of waterproof socks.)

I wear Chillcheater 'Aquatherm' socks when it starts to get soggy outside, and love them.  (They're a small Devon company little known outside of paddling circles, and the material is unique to them.)

It's like a high-tech version of wearing bread bags over your socks, they're not at all breathable, quite thin, slightly stretchy and seemingly almost indestructible.  Being thin they maximise the available space for woolly socks inside the waterproof layer.  But being entirely non-breathable feet inevitably get a bit clammy anyway, so they may present a risk of blisters over a full day.  (I rarely wear mine for more than a couple of hours at a time.)

They do a fleece-lined version but I've never tried those.  The unlined ones are very low maintenance, I just rinse them under the tap to get the mud off the outside, then turn them inside out and rinse the sweat off the inside.  Bung them in the machine inside out for a cool wash once in a blue moon if they start to get smelly.

https://www.chillcheater.com/gloves-and-footwear/aquatherm-socks

 Marek 21 Dec 2020
In reply to shuffle:

Whether waterproof socks work for me depends mainly on the terrain. They are OK for trails/paths/tracks and anything reasonably flatish, but on rough/steep ground - particularly if traversing - then foot stability (and the foot not moving inside the shoe) becomes more important and that's where anything other than minimal (single/thin) socks doesn't work so well. For me, at any rate.

Removed User 21 Dec 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Re micro spikes.

I agree with everything the author of the linked article said about the Kahtoolas . Because the spikes aren't part of a frame they float around and on heavily cleated shoes like Mudclaws the spikes can disappear between the cleats. They can also twist off a hard surface rather than bite into it. I think these Hillsound spikes are superior: https://www.outdooraction.co.uk/footwear-traction-aids/hillsound/hillsound-...

1
 girlymonkey 21 Dec 2020
In reply to Removed User:

They do look good. I have only run in yaktrax before, which are great in the Ochils or the like, but I was wondering about getting something more substantial for proper hills. These might be the thing.

Do people generally just run with a normal hill axe, or are there running specific ones? I am imagining that if I get to the point where I want my axe out, I have probably started walking and I am into normal winter hill mode, so normal axe?

In reply to George Ormerod:

Ah thanks, I’ll give that a listen. 

 Marek 21 Dec 2020
In reply to Removed User:

And don't forget the old technique of putting about a dozen self-tapping screws (short!) into the studs or blockier parts of the tread. It's amazing what difference they make on sheet ice or neve. Admittedly a bit clattery on rock or tarmac, but they're a good compromise since most of the blocks/studs are still rubber and working to provide grip on hard surfaces. We used to put them 'last-year's shoes' - at least in the days when we had proper cold winters. The best ones were the sort with a pronounced hexagonal head (hard to find), but ordinary countersunk head were good too (although you have to put them in at 45 degrees). Happy times!

 George Ormerod 21 Dec 2020
In reply to Marek:

The screws in the shoes trick does tend to piss off the mountain bikers as they fall out.  I'm using Inov8 Arctic Talons, but they're not a good as a microspikes and definitely not as good as the Kahtoola flexible crampons I have..

A light ski mountaineering axe is probably the best bet for a running ice tool.

 DaveHK 22 Dec 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

> They do look good. I have only run in yaktrax before, which are great in the Ochils or the like, but I was wondering about getting something more substantial for proper hills. These might be the thing.

Kahtoola KTS are a proper crampon and way better than microspikes for any serious hill running.

> Do people generally just run with a normal hill axe, or are there running specific ones? I am imagining that if I get to the point where I want my axe out, I have probably started walking and I am into normal winter hill mode, so normal axe?

Ski mountaineering axe like Petzl Glacier Literide.

 steveriley 22 Dec 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

Funnily enough I was pondering a new ski axe for those rare winter mountain runs. I figured light and cheap was where I was aiming as I'd hope to leave it on the sac unused, so something like the Petzl?

 Nic Barber 22 Dec 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Excellent article and imo very much needed. It even delineates between Fell Runners and Ultra/Trail runners, which makes my heart sing. I'm getting a lot more useful posts from UKC than from anywhere else at the moment - and I'm definitely a Fell Runner, not a Mountaineer/walker.

I consider myself a very experienced Fell Runner, especially when the chips are down and the weather comes in, but I am very aware of my limitations when it gets properly wintery. I'll stick to enjoying the snow on flatter, lower hills, on pathed terrain that I know well, carrying a much bigger bag than usual (though still much smaller than a walker). It's also an excuse to pack in pork pies and proper cakes, instead of caramel wafer and gels!

Post edited at 09:43
 DaveHK 22 Dec 2020
In reply to steveriley:

> Funnily enough I was pondering a new ski axe for those rare winter mountain runs. I figured light and cheap was where I was aiming as I'd hope to leave it on the sac unused, so something like the Petzl?

That's what I've got and really like it. You can get slighly lighter ones but I like the literide because it's got a proper spike on the end rather than a cut off shaft. 

Removed User 22 Dec 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

> They do look good. I have only run in yaktrax before, which are great in the Ochils or the like, but I was wondering about getting something more substantial for proper hills. These might be the thing.

Yes, the thing I found unnerving about the Kahtoolas is their performance on Neve. Once a slope gets too steep they become really unstable. 

> Do people generally just run with a normal hill axe, or are there running specific ones? I am imagining that if I get to the point where I want my axe out, I have probably started walking and I am into normal winter hill mode, so normal axe?

I've got a Camp Corsa axe which I reduced in length. It weighs 220 grammes.

https://www.ekosport.co.uk/camp-corsa-alpine-21-p-9-76363.html

 99ster 22 Dec 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

> Do people generally just run with a normal hill axe, or are there running specific ones? I am imagining that if I get to the point where I want my axe out, I have probably started walking and I am into normal winter hill mode, so normal axe?

Check out the Petzl Ride, or Petzl Gully

 barry donovan 22 Dec 2020
In reply to girlymonkey:

Runners are going on snow where they might have to do an ice axe arrest ? 

 fimm 22 Dec 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

I'm reasonably experienced on Scottish winter mountains. I've also run a number of Munros in summer, both in races and for pleasure. I personally don't feel that the risks justify the rewards of running on the high mountains in winter, i.e. I would not go up a Munro in winter, especially if there was any chance of snow, without full winter hillwalking kit. I've run in the Pentlands (my local hills) in winter and will continue to do so, but the bigger hills are a whole different level of risk.

All of this is my choice, of course. I'm not criticising others (especially those with more experience than me!) who make different choices. 

 greg_may_ 22 Dec 2020
In reply to Nic Barber:

> . It's also an excuse to pack in pork pies and proper cakes, instead of caramel wafer and gels!

You surely mean AS WELL AS Tunnocks and gels

 DaveHK 25 Dec 2020
In reply to fimm:

>I would not go up a Munro in winter, especially if there was any chance of snow, without full winter hillwalking kit. 

I probably carry much the same kit winter hill running as a winter walker would, just lighter versions of it.

 Dark-Cloud 25 Dec 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

Agreed, I haven’t had a pair of winter boots on in years but have done hundreds of winter miles in the fells running, it’s mainly about route choice and when you do need extra security spikes and a light axe are sufficient for anything in the lakes.

 george sewell 07 Jan 2021
In reply to barry donovan:

ye, I have done various winter fell runs where I have included an easy grade 1 gully (when is softer snow conditions )  or a semi exposed ridge and brought my skiing axe.  normally try to get out skiing when there is that much snow , but sometimes in the lakes it is good for a snowy fell run with some challenges but not enough for ski touring haha. 

good fun and get home quicker than going for a winter walk haha 

 simoninger 09 Jan 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

How nice to see a forum thread entirely made up of positive and supportive commentary. I’m not a runner but maybe I’ll spend a bit more time here instead of the self-centred trollfests you get on climbing articles.

 wbo2 09 Jan 2021
In reply to fimm: I'd be curious what extra kit you'd take up a Munro as opposed to someone running.  If it's survival bag etc. there are an awful lot of people who wouldnt carry one walking anyway so it really isn' much  different.

Re. cold feet, my experience - goretex lined shoes are a bit love hate most of the time but help a lot in the cold - it hasn't gone above freezing here night or day for a week now.  Also I don't especially rate Salomon speedcross, but I've got a pair of spikecross and must say they work very well.  Cushioning seems to match the spikiness pretty well.

Other shoe thoughts -  obviously when it's cold cushioning foam stiffens and cushioning reduced.  It's also badly reduced in soaking wet shoes as the pores in the foam are filled with water rather than compressible air.  So the old Nike air bag is a pretty good, reliable, winter cushion

Post edited at 13:28
 Ridge 09 Jan 2021
In reply to Removed User:

> Re micro spikes.

> I agree with everything the author of the linked article said about the Kahtoolas . Because the spikes aren't part of a frame they float around and on heavily cleated shoes like Mudclaws the spikes can disappear between the cleats. They can also twist off a hard surface rather than bite into it. I think these Hillsound spikes are superior: https://www.outdooraction.co.uk/footwear-traction-aids/hillsound/hillsound-...

Looking at the photos the spiked plate seems to be flat sheet metal, bent to shape. The kahtoola spikes have a strenthening web (stamped ?) at the point where the plate is bent to form the spike.

I'd just be a bit concerned that it might be easier to bend or snap a spike on the Hillsounds. How to you find them (at that price I might take a punt.

Removed User 09 Jan 2021
In reply to Ridge:

I found them to be fine.

I did the Northwards descent off Sgurr Eilde Mor  last winter in them when it was a mixture of scree, rock and ice and looking at them now, they're unscathed.

 Matt Podd 09 Jan 2021
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

A friend of mine who was a guide was challenged on the hill about how small his rucsack was. Yes, he said; It's full of experience.


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