NEWS: UKClimbing Limited Becomes an Employee Ownership Trust

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 UKC/UKH News 07 Feb 2023

We are delighted to announce that UKClimbing Limited, the company behind UKClimbing, UKHillwalking, Rockfax print and Rockfax Digital, has become an Employee Ownership Trust. Alan James, Managing Director of UKClimbing Ltd throughout its long progress from humble beginnings to today's thriving business, explains the thinking behind the change to the new model.   

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 chris_r 07 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Wow. Really interesting.

Well done Alan, and good luck to everyone at UKC/Rockfax for the future.

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Obviously I’m biased, but thanks Niff (aka. Alan).

It’s been an honour working for you over the last 9 years and it’ll be an honour working with you over the next however many.

 mountfenton 07 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Brilliant Niff, really good effort to keep UKC / UKH moving with - infront of the times; all guidebooks better because of Rockfax.

 Axel Smeets 07 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Congratulations - this is something which I have just done with my company. EOTs are a great thing. 

 PaulW 07 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I remember the black and white Dorset book. Groundbreaking at the time compared to everything else.

 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 07 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

A very interesting read - well done Alan and all the UKC/RF team, it sounds like a great way forward for everyone involved. I 'enjoyed' revisiting that ridiculous debacle from 2001 - just look where we are twenty-two years later.

Chris

 Mick Ward 07 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Good effort!

Mick 

 Doug 07 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

How does this set up compare to a worker's co-op ?

 Glyn 07 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Fantastic! Good effort to everyone involved 

 Ramon Marin 08 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Well done Alan and team. I've been working for an EoT for the last 10 years and I can say it does work and it's a great way ensure a future legacy and equity for the partners. 

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Congratulations Alan and team!

In reply to Doug:

> How does this set up compare to a worker's co-op ?

I'm afraid I can't answer in a detailed way but my limited understanding is that co-ops are better suited to start-ups and very small businesses, and EoTs are better for converting from an existing business that is already established.

Alan

 hokkyokusei 08 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Fabulous! My congratulations to you all!

My own company, Consult Red, converted to employee ownership almost two years ago. I firmly believe that it's the the way forward for small to medium sized enterprises.

 Neil Williams 08 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Very cool.  Good luck all!

 Paul Sagar 09 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

About 5 years ago, when I wrote my first article for UKC, I was more than a little surprised when Natalie simply told me up front how much I was going to get paid for it. I've done a decent amount of freelance journalism over the years, and I am not exaggerating when I say this is the only time a publisher has made it clear from the beginning that they expected to pay me, and told me what they were going to pay me, without me first having to cajole or beg or insist. To put that in perspective, I'd previously written for big outlets like The Guardian or the TLS, and in the case of the former, never got paid at all - they just knew I'd be so grateful for the CV points that I'd take the gig for free. I had assumed that, as a relatively small website, UKC didn't pay contributors - to find out otherwise was not only a pleasant surprise, but told me an awful lot about the people behind the operation. I'm glad to see that spirit is not only still there, but going stronger than ever. Bravo.

4
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

This is really great news, congratulations.

 Forest Dump 09 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Nice!

 alexm198 09 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Very cool! The company I work for has also just transitioned to being an EOT. Great to see so many organisations moving in this direction. Congratulations UKC team!

In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Well done UKC/RockFax

 simoncov 10 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Great news!  Thanks for sharing the article and looking forward to hearing about more EOTs in the industry.

 Abu777 10 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Very grateful you seem to have found a way to keep this invaluable online community hub away from the commercial death spiral it could easily have fallen into. I've been using this site to log my VDiff to HS onsights for as long as I can remember - long may it continue! 

 neilh 10 Feb 2023
In reply to Abu777:

I would not be so glossy eyed about it.Employee owned businesses are very common in the USA that home of capitalism. USA seems rife with them in the small and mid sized sector.Its a real pity that such an ethos has not really got hold of the Uk market.

However they also are not good structures when a company goes through a difficult patch as it becomes hard to make tough decisions on cutting back.

14
 IggyLiz 11 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News
Very pleased to read this, Chris the Tall would have been delighted

 neilh 11 Feb 2023
In reply to neilh:

For the dislikers about the USA , some 8 million people work for employee owned businesses in the USA. It’s an impressive number in the home of capitalism. 

 pneame 11 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Great news. 

 David Riley 11 Feb 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Best wishes.  Good to find new structures to escape 'them and us'.  Hope it works well.

In reply to IggyLiz:

> Very pleased to read this, Chris the Tall would have been delighted

Thank you Liz, that's a really nice thing to say. We miss Chris's contributions on UKC.

Alan

In reply to IggyLiz:

> Very pleased to read this, Chris the Tall would have been delighted

I’d echo exactly what Alan had to say - I really miss Chris’ contributions to the site. Such a nice, warm and welcoming person both online and in reality.

 Mark Kemball 11 Feb 2023
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Yes, a lovely bloke, I climbed with him a couple of times when he was on holiday down here in Cornwall.

 salix 19 Feb 2023
In reply to neilh:

> However they also are not good structures when a company goes through a difficult patch as it becomes hard to make tough decisions on cutting back.

I'd be interested to know what that's based on, I have some anecdata that suggests the opposite, but would be interested in a more rigorous comparison of worker owned vs single owner/shareholder ownership models.

My experience of starting a worker's coop (similar idea, to EOT - presumably similarly weak at making with 'tough decisions') was quite different - since we were all very invested in the co-op's success, making compromises on hours/pay etc was something we would do. This was repeated during the pandemic when the business (a small shop) survived, but many similar businesses in the same sector and city failed.  I was no longer a member, but I thought it was a good advert for the resiliency that worker ownership can bring. But I am a very biased observer .

 neilh 21 Feb 2023
In reply to salix:

Look at the failures in the USA amongst employee owned businesses. Witnessed a competitor of mine in the USA where the employee owned  business in effect died on its feet, it had a good business but became locked in employees shareholders battles for as each employee left the business had to fund the purchase of the shares and they in effect ran out of cash to buy back those shares.The remaining employee shareholders lost everything as they went bust. Needless to say a multibillionaire sweeped up the pieces and its now back on track.

The lesson is there is no perfect business model despite what people think.There are pluses and minuses.You tend never to hear about the minuses with employee owned models as everybody thinks its the ideal, do not kid yourself.

3
In reply to neilh:

I work for an EOT organisation, that is not how the shares structure works for us. We collectively own 51%, but I specifically do not own shares - the trust does. So when I leave there are no shares of mine to fund. The only time the 'share' of the total shares per person comes into it is at bonus time where there is a profit sharing scheme and so a large expansion in staff could equal lower bonus payments.

 neilh 21 Feb 2023
In reply to willworkforfoodjnr:

As you say there are various structures that can be done which work well in certain situations.

I am not knocking the model, what I am saying is that it still is not perfect- nothing is whendealing with the rough and tumble of the business world.

 sandrow 21 Feb 2023
In reply to neilh:

> As you say there are various structures that can be done which work well in certain situations.

> I am not knocking the model, what I am saying is that it still is not perfect- nothing is whendealing with the rough and tumble of the business world.

What we need are more Elon Musks - swashbuckling, alpha-male, psychopaths...

1
 The New NickB 21 Feb 2023
In reply to neilh:

The down votes are probably because your post doesn’t make much sense. Employee owned companies are not anti capitalist, they are just another way of doing capitalism. I’m not surprised they are popular in the US, they have a strong tradition around co-operation, despite all the shouting about individualism.

 neilh 22 Feb 2023
In reply to The New NickB:

That is a better way of putting it......

In reply to neilh:

> Look at the failures in the USA amongst employee owned businesses. Witnessed a competitor of mine in the USA where the employee owned  business in effect died on its feet, it had a good business but became locked in employees shareholders battles for as each employee left the business had to fund the purchase of the shares and they in effect ran out of cash to buy back those shares.The remaining employee shareholders lost everything as they went bust. Needless to say a multibillionaire sweeped up the pieces and its now back on track.

This is not an EoT as I understand them which willworkforfoodjnr describes well. What you have described is the squabbling that can plague management buy-outs. 

Having said that, I do agree with your assertion that EoTs may struggle should they fall on hard times, but then all businesses struggle when they fall on hard times. It is the case that EoTs may struggle to get finance more than other businesses that have the option to go to the shareholders for financing should they need it.

Alan


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