UKH

The Highland Kings ultra race has been accused of vandalism on the isle of Arran, after race organisers marked 'hundreds' of rocks on Goat Fell with bright waymarkers. The exclusive event, which charges over £15,000 per entrant, claims on its website to be "one of the most sustainable endurance events in the world".

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This is pretty poor form, especially in an SSSI. It's well known in running circles that this "chalk paint" doesn't wash off very quickly, it can last on roads for ages (6+ months) if sprayed thickly.

I am also baffled why they are needed. Each competitor gets a Garmin Marq watch with the course pre loaded. Is the Garmin Marq such a poor watch that this isn't enough to allow them to follow the course? Doesn't say much for Garmin's watches.......

If they want to see a real highland king, they should click on the first news article below this one and read about Finlay Wild's unsupported Paddy. Now that IS impressive.

I saw this on FB last night and after a sweary and exasperated response I thought, ‘must share this on ukc in the morning.’ 

I await news of some form of prosecution. It makes me want to visit irresponsibly run events and sabotage some of the race infrastructure, scrub off numbers/arrows etc then inform the organisers and the local media. I would never do this of course.😀

For anyone interested, Richard Asquith’s Running Free has some key commentary on events like this, as well as being a great read.

Ecodefense, a field guide to monkeywrenching is also an inspiring read.

what a bunch of absolute reptiles.

Dreadful / lame / sad. Not sure why they thought it's needed; e.g. Glen Coe Skyline(*) marks the course with little flags on metal poles that they stick in turf / between rocks. They place them before the race start (thus checking their course is ok) and remove them after time-outs. This way they check no-one is left behind injured / knackered / hypothermic. This seems a much better approach and leaves no traces.

(*) Glen Coe Skyline is an "expensive" race if you ask me but they probably spend a fair bit e.g. on all the guides they have on the trickier scrambling parts of Curved Ridge and Aonach Eagach. 

I’m not sure that Arran’s adder population will appreciate that.

It's ok they'll send their butlers to pressure wash the rocks later.

Did anyone actually pay £15,000 to "race"? I'd assumed it was an elaborate hoax.

Basically just graffiti, hope they get charged with something given it's an SSSI.

As others have said surely navigation should be part of the challenge for an event like that, and if they need markers at certain points then marshals or little flags which can all be collected behind the last runner are surely how it should have been done. 

Did they spray paint all potential trip hazards, too? Rocks, roots; anything lumpier than a running track?

I've seen that done on organised cross country events. I think I even argued at length here with a keen event runner...

At £15k entry, you'd think they could afford butlers standing at each point, providing directions and champagne to ward off mountain lassitude.

Or maybe the 'elite athletes' could learn to bloody navigate.

Or the metal poles jammed into their likely habitat...

I had to check my calendar to see it isn't April 1st.  Unbelievable...

I think it’s billed as a no experience needed, just money.

I’m assuming no real sponsored athletes actually took part as Ive hardly seen any social media about it.
It’s an expensive holiday in my opinion 

Privileged money grabbing tossers of the highest order. Prosecute them and put them in the stocks.

Anyone else picturing Kendal Roy pounding out the miles on this one? With full support team, getting an IV drip on the luxury speedboat as an assistant changes his 'sneakers' and Cousin Gregg struggles to capture the right angle for an Instagram story. 

Kendal jumps into the sea to emerge on to the (helpfully spray painted beach) for the second leg of the race. Greg messes up the shot as waves spray over him. Kendal activates his running playlist, headphones in. 'All bangers, all the time'.

On a slightly more serious note: it's just a massive f*** you to all us little people, isn't it? A money-grabbing grift aimed at people with too cash pouring out of their backsides, with sheer contempt for those that actually interact with and respect these environments on a long-term basis for more than Facebook bragging rights. 

What a world.

You can make the statutory authority aware of this so that HKR can be taken to task about this by emailing the Nature Scot Tayside and Grampian office here: https://www.nature.scot/about-naturescot/contact-us/area-offices

Very surprised they were 'allowed' to do this. I've been involved in commercial events before, both in the planning, and receiving applications for events on a SSSI. You ALWAYS have to submit an environmental mitigation report as to what impact you are having on an area. Surely their waymarking would have been put into this, so whomever was approving this would have known and okayed it? Or did they downplay it? beggars belief that this would get through. 

I recall their original promo material talking about 'running through untouched natural environments' (or summin' like that). Certainly nothing untouched or natural about a big massive yellow arrow on a rock!

Is the chalk paint used in this event substantially different to the massive amounts of chalk pasted across rocks by climbers across the country? I would assume climbers chalk is similarly damaging for lichen and such.

That is  such a stupid analogy it's almost not worth replying to. It's a bit like saying climbers drive to the crag so why would have a problem driving monster trucks across nature reserves. 

"I have since spoken to a number of event organisers who say that this really goes against accepted practice, especially as this stuff takes a lot longer to wash off than advertised. I also understand that it will fatally change the pH of the granite boulders and kill the lichens that grow there."

That whole part is the meat of the criticism in this article and is actually pretty weak. The first sentace is just quoting somone saying what someone else told them. And the second sentance is just the quote syaing "apparrently is does this [source:trust me]". Either the chalk they've used does kill off lichen, in which case ukc should just say that, rather than this weak sauce hiding it behind 2 layers of quotes; or it doesn't, and ukc is just going off hearsay publishing serious allegations about what the organisers have done.

Not defending the organisers but I think story this could have been better reported.

I disagree with you. Rocks marred with tons of climbing chalk is very comparable in my opinion. As is the erosion caused by dragging mats.

Who organizes this thing? Who took part? And who is bragging on Facebook about it?

(For that matter, who is Kendal Roy? I have no f*cking idea.)

I see from https://www.highland-kings.com/ that that nice Mr Fiennes has put his imprimatur to the next one.

Witch is probably why climbers get pissed off with people over chalking and not brushing afterwards. This is accepted good practice, lots has been written about it and those who dont are often called out for it.

Your second point regarding erosion has 0 relevance 

Jesus that website is everything that is repellent about this sort of organised event. Unbelievable. If I were a Highland King I would ban this organised  monetising of the land itself outright.

Go and have a look at the Thrudark sponsors site to top things off.

Its not a great selling point for garmin is it? On the one hand they boast about how the watch will keep you ontrack but on the other hand have gone spray happy. I wouldnt be to happy if I was garmins PR team.

Yes I've come across their website before. Very SuperArmySoldiers... 

What a bunch of bellends. Looks like the parent company is https://www.primal-adventures.com/

https://www.facebook.com/PrimalAdv

That pretty much sums up what journalism is.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to ask organisers of similar events for their comments, and to report it when they say this doesn't represent best practice.  

However I agree that a bit more research into the environmental impact of the marker would not have come amiss.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_(TV_series)

What goes into an environmental mitigation proposal and what happens on the ground often differ. My experience is only in construction/renewables, but I suspect it's much worse once you get into the world of RedBull/Insta/LookAtMe events where the lines between professionalism and improvisation are likely much less clear.

primal adventures in a 4x4-lol. sad to see Mark Beaumont involved..

Terrible.

But for non-climbers (and some climbers) climbers and chalk marks/tick marks, destruction of lichen, gardening to unearth, create or maintain routes = double-standards. 

Last time I saw Sir T-W-F talk it was boring corporate bullshit so he is very suited to talk to the sort of tosser who would do this event.

I keep wondering who exactly would have done this event. £15k for a run? The whole thing seems like an April Fool.

One year, I had the misfortune to be in Kinlochleven and surrounding hills when that event was being run. Mass events like that are a total pain in the arse.

https://www.trailrunningmag.co.uk/articles/news/day-two-of-the-highland-kin...

https://www.trailrunningmag.co.uk/articles/news/the-finish-is-in-sight-for-...

More money than sense.

Almost makes it sound like it was just the two of them running...

Perhaps tellingly, the event website does not include results ...

You've got to hand it to them. As a feat of marketing finding 40 tw*ts willing to pay £15k to be told they are 'Highland King ultra marathon athletes' is genius.

Climbers "gardening" is a massive problem. and climbers complaining about damage to lichen is ridiculously hypocritical.

However, the marks are a massive eyesore, have probably been placed illegally (assuming that the licensing authorities did not defer to the price tag), and the organizers should be made to pay for removal in addition to massive penalties.

CB

I’m as guilty of over chalking rock climbs as anyone. And while this yellow spray takes “chalking up” to a whole new level, despite the best of us being diligent tick mark removers, generally as climbers, I think we are on pretty shake-y ground here to be preaching from…

i wonder if we'll ever know who won? (King of Kings)

But climbers don't have the alternative option of using flags. OK, at a stretch they could work to mark holds, but I'm not sure they'd help when your hands got sweaty.

We could all join the clean hand gang. Purely for ego driven performance reasons we chose not to. You could even argue that using chalk is akin to doping in that those genetically disadvantaged by sweaty hands are seeking to offset their lack of natural predisposition with artificial means.

Personally, I don’t see the chalk left by climbers on the odd bit of rock that’s suitable for climbing, as a huge eco-disaster but can wholly see why non-climbers might strongly disagree, which, as I say, doesn’t leave us in a great position to be moralising to others from.

If the flag was made out of a towel it might work pretty well.

I've been thinking for years about stitching bar towels to the crampon-patch-areas of my summer climbing trousers to clean my shoes - maybe a section on the arse to dry my hands would be in order as well.

I guess it depends on whether climbers are collectively to blame/responsible for the actions of who has gone before them, or not, re it being hypocritical for posters on here to see the paint in a dim light? 

The question has my mind going off on philosophical tangents, about whether one can feel pride in the actions of one's ancestors or country men and women, that kind of thing...

HarryJohnston makes a very good point in his post. Care to explain why you say this?  There is also something missing from your second sentence, because it doesn't make sense.

Sounds like bad planning on your part.  

I really enjoyed the Skyline the times I did it and their organisation is gold standard unlike this crowd of gold diggers.

This might sound like splitting hairs but I see a bit of a difference between individual responsibility for individual impacts and corporate responsibility.

Is there actually any evidence that non-climbers are particularly bothered by chalk on crags?

I’ve never looked for that evidence but I’d willing to bet at least one person has walked along the base of Stanage Edge and been appalled at the white powder vandalism.

I’ve had comments from walkers on at least two occasions, annoyingly none of the chalk was mine (on well ‘ard problems I have no chance of ever doing..). I did my best ‘it annoys me to’ but I don’t think they believed me..

It's not even very neat. £600,000 in entry fees collected and they couldn't afford some stencils? 

£119 if entered before end of March this year. Entering just now until 9 September is £129. This is expensive but pales when compared to £15,000. As others have said, this figure is hard to believe 

Stencils? With that much cash they should employ someone to stand near each boulder and point and say "its that way....tosser".

£15k

Or Banksy?

It would be a good point if it was substantiated or referenced rather than qualified with an assumption. Maybe he's right, I don't know and clearly neither does he. His post is also blatant whataboutery.

Do you ask them or stay quiet in blissful ignorance?

Chalk, bolts, tat, gardening, trundling, creation, van life, short hauls to Kaly etc etc. Grey areas. For me, there's an inherent hypocrisy when we pontificate and act like we're the great protectors of the outdoors that we like to think we are.

I've done most of those things and yet I don't feel like a hypocrite when I condemn the actions of these clowns. This is because its wrong and my past actions are irrelevant to how wrong it is.

A bold interpretation of John 8:7  

That was in my mind when posting.  Like lots of advice in the bible it's good advice in some scenarios and poor in others.

Assuming you're referring to the John of the bible and not your own book of wisdom?  

Brits are obsessed with hypocrisy - to point out wrongdoing you have to be completely blameless or else you'll face howls of "whatabout xyz!". See also the usual reaction to any sort of climate activism, eg "did they drive to the protest?!!!??!" or "I bet they own an iPhone!!!" 

In those cases, like here, the whataboutery just serves to distract from the actual issue at hand. In this case in particular the occasional intense (sometimes to the point of ridiculous) debates about climbing ethics on these forums would suggest that this community is more than qualified and morally justified to criticise an event like this.

The best solution would be some ukc activists acquiring some yellow spray of their own and adding to the other side of the arrow, runners then have a 50/50 chance, it'll add to the adventure for them. 

The spray paint is obnoxious, but it's the £15k entry that I find particularly disgusting. That's more than my yearly salary... and many other people are in the same position.

Part of me agrees, but, on the other hand, if the organiser's can get people with more money than sense to part with that amount of money, then good luck to them.

And, on a third hand, I suppose people can spend their money how they like; flashy cars, expensive climbing trips etc.

The point is not what individuals should do  according to their moral compass. The point is that this underscores how in the UK today many people doing valuable work are paid a pittance, leading to extensive poverty (4 million UK children live in poverty) whilst other people have so much spare wealth that someone else's yearly income is their small change. This is an intolerable and unforgiveable situation and it is even visible in the hills, which I tend to allow myself the delusion of viewing as a kind of refuge from the everyday atrocities of neoliberal capitalism.

I've no objection to the entry fee, just the management.

100s of orienteering events every year put out thousands of signs to events, start, finish, download, parking, toilets, plus all the actual controls in the forest or on the hills. Unpaid volunteers run around for a day after removing everything. There's no reason little arrows on posts couldn't be place the day before, then collect in and placed out on the next leg. It's either management incompetence or laziness. 

Agreed, it's disgusting in a similar way to the Everest circus. If anything events like these should be more on the case of LNT because a) they've clearly got the money to pay someone to come and clean it off, or better yet pay stewards to direct people if they feel it's necessary and b) luxury events like this leaving a mess just increases the impression that they don't give a **** about anyone else. They're wealthy and therefore feel entitled to leave whatever mess they want without caring what the proles think.

Yes, indeed. We can go a step further: the ideological function of events like this is to help very wealthy men convince themselves that they really do deserve their wealth and power because they are fitter, stronger, braver than others. A lot of these financers and business types convince themselves that the world operates according to the principle of "survival of the fittest" and that they are genuinely just superior to ordinary people. It's absolutely no coincidence that it's called the "Highland Kings" because these people use events like this to convince themselves that they deserve to rule over others.

Here's BBC Scotland's version;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-61272121

Rich people can't navigate. Well known fact. The more money you have the less able you are to find your own way out of the car park. It's not as if there is a hundred year old sport which challenges you to run in the wild, navigating your own route on a map. Good job that nobody with that kind of money have ever heard of the Scottish Orienteering Association. Orienteering requires people to think about what they are doing and face the consequences, so that would never work.

(Hallo Lucy)

I believe there is. A bouldering area in Yorkshire lost when the land owner chiselled off the holds and a load of chalked holds chiselled off at Robin Hood Stride.

This does not make the way marking right but it does throw a few stones around our greenhouse.

As climbers we do need to recognise our impact. The chalk on MGC can be seen from Cat bells. The bowderstone is a dappled mess. It would only take a small group of objectors to make things difficult for climbers here. 

And you can generally afford orienteering.   Anyway I expect this sport would give the wannabe Highland kings the fulminant heebeegeebees.  

What... I have to think as well?  What no path?

As climbers it's time we stopped mouthing off about others and "leave no trace" until we've got our own house in order. 

Our own house? We're a bunch of individuals, not a homogeneous mass. Some climbers leave chalk marks and litter all over the place, some don't, and even the ones that do would still have a point if they criticised Highland Kings. You might find hypocrisy distasteful but it doesn't invalidate an argument.

Why would a  self confessed litterer have any grounds to complain at the Highland Kings waymarking?

Why wouldn't they? Both are wrong.

No, if I go out stealing from people , I'm not in a position to criticise other thieves. That's how I see it, anyway.

I'm afraid I don't see your logic. Bad behaviour is bad behaviour no matter who points it out.

Yes but the people pointing it out shouldn't be doing so if they are guilty of the same offence themselves. They don't have the moral high ground.

If I am discovered accessing pornography in my place of work then I am the very last person who should be calling someone else out for doing the same.

Something you want to tell us?

No, just speaking on behalf of a friend....

...and get our fittest, strongest and bravest fell-runners to go and run the course in parallel and embarrass the shit out of them?

Apparently, it's bad form to run a course without paying for it...

Ok I'll try another example: if I park my car on the pavement to such an extent that I am making it impassable for wheelchair/pushchair users, is it acceptable for my neighbour to reprimand me for my actions when he has parked his car in exactly the same way? 

I am not defending the rights and wrongs of my parking but I am questioning his right to criticise me when he is guilty of the same offence himself.

Don't mouth off about others until "we've got our own house in order". Who's this "we"? What's this shared "house"?

I am not responsible for the behaviour of other climbers, nor them for my behaviour but if I was responsible for a mess then I hope someone would call me out whether they be climbers or not.

"We" is the greater climbing community and the image that we present to the general non climbing public.

Obviously someone with your user name might struggle with the concept 

Do they need someone in a yellow jacket to direct them as well, or can they find their own way ?

We're not some homogeneous blob.

In your example with your neighbour would you accept a reprimand from a completely different driver or would you just tell them to get their house in order before mouthing off to you?

I'm not sure how drivers have the moral high ground to complain about anything really, they pollute, speed, kill others, are noisy, park inconsiderately.

More we need to recognise that we too have an impact which others may object to. 

I think the hk markings are triggering indignation because:

a) they are an intrusion of way markings into an off shoot of fell running which is traditionally a self reliant sport. 

b) the shocking entry fees are beyond the understanding of most. This is likely the biggest driver. If only the rich would stay in their super yachts. 

The impact of a single event using chalk paint in a wet mountain environment is  minimal.

I recently watched some children chalk out a hopscotch course, should I object? 

I'd be more likely to accept a reprimand from someone who wasn't so obviously as guilty as myself and I assume most people would be the same.

Only if its in the mountains.

Now that does sound a bit like a homogeneous blob........

Probably best to complain first about the bastards who created the urban environment and tarmaced over everything...

In that case we need to keep an eye on next year's event then turn up en masse and run it. OK, we won't get a complimentary Buff and we'll need to bring our own gels but such are the privations of DIY outdoors.

only if using liquid chalk!

I was referring to this earlier discussion of this event

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/ukc/premium_events_-_how_they_affect_us_a...

I've never been very keen on people trying to claim exclusive use of public spaces and rights of way, so my tongue was firmly in my cheek.

I'd love to see these numpties given a complete humiliation by real fellrunners like Nic & his fellows...

Odd enough their address is Fairlie quay, Fairlie, Largs, Ayrshire. Exactly where Curtis and Townshead were stationed during the war when they put up the classic rock climbs on Arran. The rock face across the road they used for rope practice has been lost to a housing development and covered in steel netting. I'm sure those guys would be livid with this their climbs were left spotless.

This thread has hit peak UCK in places.

Climbing "chalk" is not chalk. Chalk is calcium carbonate, the stuff you have in your chalk bag is magnesium carbonate.

Blackboard chalk is not chalk either, that stuff is actually gypsum.  Road and railway markings were traditionally done using sticks of this kind of 'chalk', but the marks were easily washed off and didn't last long so it's only used for the most temporary of marks these days - marks that will be finished with in hours, not days let alone weeks.  Non-white chalk includes dyes which tend to stain and can leave permanent marks, especially on porous surfaces.

The marks that have been scrawled on rocks on Arran by the weapons grade bellends behind the "Highland Kings" event were clearly done with a road marking aerosol, which is in fact a kind of paint. Squirted out of a spray can. Not the most durable and permanent paint they might have used, but paint nonetheless.

Excessive chalking of holds on climbs, tickmarks etc. is obviously a thing. But equating that to this is plainly ludicrous.

"The Highland Kings" would be a good name for a ceilidh band. A good support act for Neil Parish's "The Devon Tractors."

Thanks I'll have a read. I'm by and large against exclusive use of public spaces, (with exceptions for things like the IoM TT, Tour of Britain, etc). Nothing wrong with exclusive use of dibbers, free gels and complimentary Buffs of course.

I can't help but think that the organisers and indeed anyone who'd pay 15k to enter a hill race might regard the course and environs as temporary private property.

I'm not aware of any hill/fell race in the UK has 'exclusive use' of trails. There are a couple of bits of the Yorkshire 3 peaks (running and cx) that you're only meant use on race day but that's different.

That may be true, but the Highland Kings are not a true representation of what the  'sustainable/LNT' race communities are doing, and thus if an individual here wants to call out that individual race, then so be it!

I find the entry fees shocking but I have regarded large events with an amount of scepticism for many years. Money for old rope. I thought triathlons were an expensive money spinner for the organisers but this seems outrageous.

Of course, I recognise my inverse snobbery here. The rich have an equal right to the outdoors too. As stated above, I believe a lot of the hoo haa is actually triggered by the entry fee. Be honest with yourselves.

Is the chalk paint better or worse than the non biodegradable plastic flags placed every few metres on "sky race" events? I cannot believe every single one of these is collected from every single event. At least the paint weathers away. I would rather not see either but maybe the paint is the better option. 

As this is an outdoor event, there will be those within our community involved and cashing in, organisers, guides, instructors etc, there are maybe even some volunteers from a local sports club hoodwinked into supporting the profit making machine (this happens routinely in tris and sportives). Perhaps a ukc user is feeling a pang of guilt somewhere. 

103 posts from the Splutteratti, and not one has said they have made a formal complaint to the body responsible for SSSI's.

 

Here you go, crack on:

https://www.nature.scot/about-naturescot/contact-us

Or did you just want to have a splutter about someone else not having done it?

Nope, I was spluttering long before I noted the price tag. It's the arrogance and high-handedness of the paint and the appropriation of the hills that bother me the most.

I admit that the fee does add a bit of antagonism though. I associate it with the worst elements of unimaginative social media sprayers for whom outdoors activity is a narcissistic device. Next stop Everest, stand in a queue, hopefully not die, write a book then eat out on it forever more. Yawn, at best.

Big events are not necessarily money for old rope. I know someone who organised a big closed-roads cycling event in the Scottish Borders and it was a huge amount of work, the returns of which weren't going to see him prancing off to the Aston Martin dealership. The Strathpuffer, which is the only event I regularly do, doesn't generate big profits and takes a lot of work to organise. Once you're into the realms of big entry fees though, the organisers will likely comprise of professional events managers rather than enthusiasts who are making it up on the hoof, (and generally do a pretty good job of it).

I agree completely with that.

I disagreed with the notion that a person could justifiably take offence at the HK signage while simultaneously tossing an empty lager can into the heather,

Not sure anyone mentioned tossing lager cans into the bushes.

Or straw men.

20.39 Sat

"Some climbers leave...litter all over the place ...." 

I was simply pointing out that those individuals/ litterers were not in a position to criticise a few temporary waymarks and was surprised to see that most people thought that they were.

Kind of, Cornudella, little chance of it being weathered away currently. 

I made my views clear to the organiser's by e mail when I read this thread and got this response from them 

"Thank you for the message to let us know about your concern about the Highland Kings course marking.  We much appreciate it.  Living and working in the area, we are acutely conscious of the environmental impact that events such as Highland Kings have.  As such we sourced and used high quality biodegradable chalk for the event, but we are aware of the impression any sort of marking can have, so had always planned to have a team returning to the course this morning (the day after the event) to wash down all surfaces.  

We did carry out industry research and went over and above to source material recommended for this type of event.  The route markers were only used purely from a safety point of view for the athletes.

Moving forward, improving our practices and working with the local community is of paramount importance to us, and so feedback such as this is extremely helpful."

Does anyone know whether this has actually happened? - or was it just a plan.

And if it has happened, does anyone know whether it has left "unsightly" boulders, or whether the washing has been successful?

"Working with the local community" What a load of bollocks. Never heard of them despite living 5 miles from their base. There isn't even a sign at the gate. There is one for scuba diving lessons maybe the same mob. "Industry research" jeez that makes me cringe with embarrassment for them. COSHH assessment they probably mean but dont  have the knowledge to know what its called.

You were “simply pointing out” that you think no climbers at all are entitled to complain about litter or about the behaviour of other people.

“As climbers it's time we stopped mouthing off about others and "leave no trace" until we've got our own house in order.”

Which is nonsense. If you are throwing your lager cans into the heather then that isn’t the fault of the climbing community as a whole. It’s your fault, and people are well within their rights to call you a tool (hypothetically).

I'll try to clarify because I'm not out to criticise the entire climbing community.

I think that climbers who litter should keep their mouths shut about  a bit of waymarking. 

But I also think that all climbers should be aware that there are litterers and the like in our community when we are trotting out the old "leave no trace" advice.

But if you agree that the lagercan littering tool has no right to criticise a bit of removable waymarking then we're on the same wavelength. 

What i can't follow is the mindset which says that the tool can go about his littering and still make justifiable com plaints about the marking.

There are boaters who dump their shit in the rivers. There are 'parkourists' who go out of their way to antagonise the locals when being kicked off of private spots. There are drivers who wilfully put other people's lives at risk by driving dangerously.

As a boater, a 'parkourist', a driver, I don't do any of those things. I'm not sure why I should assume any responsibility for their behaviour just because they also live on a boat, or jump on walls, or drive cars. I'm not them. Some climbers are tossers, yes. Some of every identifiable cohort of people on the planet will be tossers. That doesn't mean that the rest of their cohort need to take responsibility for the tossing behaviour when criticising the tossing behaviour of other groups of tossers.

I'll happily vehemently argue for leaving no trace because I, myself, to the best of my ability, leave no trace. I'll happily call out those who do leave a trace - and I'll happily call them out whatever the flavour of trace they're leaving and whatever group they identify as belonging to.

And I think that's what most others on here would argue too.

The leave no trace argument is supported by most climbers and that's a good thing. 

But wait for the reaction if someone suggests that bolting a crag is hardly in line with the philosophy of "leave no trace". All of a sudden exceptions will be made and exonerating circumstances will come into play. 

I feel like you're performing some impressive mental gymnastics with this argument. Are you talking about littering? Or are you talking about chalk marks? Or are you talking about bolts? Or...?

Bolting obviously isn't littering. Chalk marks obviously aren't littering. Whatever the arguments for or against bolting, I don't feel it's possible to conflate it with spraying chalk paint all over naturally wild environments. We don't stick bolts in those environments either, or so the consensus dictates. Chalk marks, if we're going to accept that chalk is a thing to stay, are as inevitable as the footprint that the walker leaves on the hill to the summit. Excessive chalk is a massive problem, and can't at all be condoned. But so is mass erosion caused by legions of walkers, for example up on the Edale skyline.

To take your argument to its logical conclusion, we should leave no trace and so everyone should stay off the hills - climber, walker, runner.

Bolts . The flavour is bolts. They do leave a trace, you'll agree.

In your next reply you go on to assert that we don't place bolts in naturally wild environments .  I don't think that's true.

But your comments about  footpath erosion being inevitable  do make sense ( I don't think chalkmarks are  is anything like as avoidable) so if we accept that it's not possible to "Leave no trace" wouldn't it be better to assign the phrase to its proper place in the file marked "Nice Sounding But Ultimately Pointless Phrases"?

It's not just bolts though is it? We'd have very little to climb if those of us who like new routeing weren't prepared to wreak significant change on the natural environment of the crag by whiling away the hours digging turf off ledges, pulling plants out of cracks, trundling sundry boulders and scraping away layers of moss. I don't regard this as vandalism but equally I don't pretend I'm not leaving very obvious traces of my presence. And this is often for some remote obscurity that only a few of my mates will ever repeat. It's hardly on the heroic scale of The Ocean (E1 5b). I agree the phrase probably best belongs in the world of soft focus sunset aspirational memes.

ETA: My heart sank the last time I visited Craig Pant Ifan at Temadog and saw how many routes were becoming overgrown and "returning to nature." I was saddened that starred E1s were disappearing under the brambles from which they were originally unveiled. I didn't rejoice that the traces of human impact were being eradicated.

I feel the same about Dovestones Main Quarry. 

Not many people have been leaving a trace there recently.

In the UK, we seem to mostly limit our bolting excesses to chossy old quarries. As ecologically important as these environments are, I think it's a far stretch to argue that they are equivalent to the Highland moors and mountains. Particularly when one occasionally has to wade through the mouldering mattresses and broken glass to get to the point of being able to clip the bolts.

Some of, if not all of the best bolted crags are on natural limestone and in quite nice places.

...but most of our bolts, by quantity, are indeed in chossy old quarries? I may well be wrong, I'm not anywhere near as well-acquainted with UK sport climbing as I'd like to be, so please call me out if I am.

I've just been climbing at Ban-y-Gor and I'll freely admit that it's a beautiful natural environment - but I'd wager that for every Ban-y-Gor there are at least three Horseshits?

Verdon...

And please, I know this is about the UK...and getting back to the original thread topic, reprehensible

Ok. Well, if there's genuinely no trace the next day I'm good 

Can anyone confirm?

Upthread you also clarified who you were criticising for “mouthing off” and explained that it is “the greater climbing community”. Make your mind up.

Who exactly on this thread have you caught throwing lager cans into the heather? Name and shame or pipe down. 

Quite. I've spent the bulk of the past four decades in TGO and must have known a few hundred like-minded people during this time and I can't think of anyone who wouldn't be outraged by littering in the hills let alone anyone who'd actually do it.

Don't think I've known many lager drinkers either  

The lager drinking lout was hypothetical. He represented a person who criticises one aspect of  anti social behaviour ( for example, graffiti) while himself indulging in an equally offensive activity( for example, littering).

As a personal opinion, I consider that leaving a trail of metal on a mountain crag to be at least as offensive as leaving a trail of removable chalk on a fell running route, especially if the chalk is removed as promised while the metal trail is there for any, number of years in the future. 

 As I've said earlier, I see no point at all paying lip service to the notion of "leave no trace" because it's a premise we can't really live up to . So let's just stop musing the phrase.

But it's a good ideal to aim for, non? That's sort of like saying "run the trains on time" is a premise that the railways can't live up to, so let's bin the timetable.

Ultimately the metal trail (lager cans I assume you mean this time, not bolts?) is as unwelcome as spray paint. Just because one sadly does sometimes exist doesn't mean that the other can be condoned. And as no one on UKC is likely to be leaving a trail of lager cans up the hill, I don't see any paradox in people denouncing the spray painting of our hills.

Edit: I'd also add that some graffiti is a positive contribution to the world. What's not to love about genuinely good and colourful art brightening up the drab urban environment?

On balance probably most of my mates drink lager. But then, a fair few of them holiday in   Benidorm as well.

No, by metal trail I was referring to bolts, especially on  magnificent natural mountain crags as opposed to shitty little quarries.

Justify them all you like, they still leave a definite trace. Non?

Last time I stayed in Benidorm it was heaving with other superannuated climbers frittering away our big fat pensions on cheap accommodation to spend a few weeks bolt clipping in the winter sun. Given the difficulty of finding decent boutique IPAs I was forced to resort to lager on occasion.

But how many magnificent mountain crags have a trail of bolts up them? I thought that it was a generally accepted premise that we don't place bolts on mountain rock!?

You were very specific that the lager-can-tossing posters were the people you had a problem with. captain paranoia even questioned whether they were real and you doubled down. We want names!

Otherwise, if your complaint is about someone who only exists in your imagination, it’s probably best to leave the real people to their justified concerns about the race markings. 

But wouldn't the most effective way to minimise climbing's impact on the natural environment be to stop all the cleaning of existing routes and crags (eg the Bwlch y Moch clean-ups) and ban new routeing? I don't want that, and consequently I can't see how "leave no trace" can be an appropriate aspiration for our hobby.

I've drifted into lager over the past few years after a lifetime of real ale fundamentalism. I still dispose of empties responsibly though. I've had a holiday in Calpé, but that's not really the same.

As an environmental issue bolts, as such, are neither here nor there. Any issues are with the impact of the popularisation of the crags they are put in.

No, I never said the lager tosser was real. I've only just finished explaining that he was hypothetical and that he represented one form of anti social behaviour  having the gall to criticise another. It's one of those occasions when you'll just have to take my word for it. 

I understand why real people have concerns about the race markings but I think that intemperate language calling it "vandalism"  ( and the same in the Levers Water thread title) doesn't help . A nd their concerns may be justified but there are other instances of leaving unnecessary evidence of our passing in the mountains which should evoke even greater outrage.

And when all's said and done, if the marks have been removed, what's the problem?

Anyone finding them really offensive better not take a walk along a French GR route......

I'm guessing you don't count the Yorkshire Dales as a mountain environment, same as someone else didn't consider the Peak to be in the same league as the Lakes?

My main worry is that all my favourite beers actually look like lager so I might be accused of holidaying in Benidorm and setting fire to the moors with my disposable barbecue.

No big issue really as long as you don't talk about leaving no trace.

I can't argue that, but obviously I mean within the confines of what is reasonable given the conflicting requirements of our hobby...sorry, pursuit, before Robert jumps on me again. In the same way that walkers should stick to the paved footpath instead of gouging out deeper and deeper trenches either side of it up the hillside, rather than staying at home entirely.

We can all aspire to leave no trace of our individual passing in the natural environment. Don't shit on the hillside, take our bog roll home, stop leaving peeled-off gear tape and rope end markings at the foot of the crag. That sort of thing.

Well, by definition...no.

Sorry, by Yorkshire Dales, I meant the Yorkshire Dales National Park.

It includes mountains such as Pen y Ghent, Ingleborough and Whernside and also some fairly substantial natural limestone crags.

You posted 15 times about litter dropping, clarifying several times that you were indeed complaining about posters dropping litter, before mentioning bolts at all. But hey ho, I’ll leave that there. 

Have they been satisfactorily removed? I didn’t think that had been confirmed.

15 times? I can see less than half a dozen where I've actually mentioned litter.

The whole litter thing arose from another poster's comment where he acknowledged that climbers did drop litter " all over the place"  but that shouldn't prevent them from expressing their disgust at the HK waymarking. That was where I stepped in to say that I disagreed. But it seems that I have a lower hypocrisy toleration threshold than most of UKC  since the majority seem to think that however much of a knob you are, you're still entitled to call out another knob for displaying the same behaviour which you are guilty of. 

As for the waymarkings, IF they have been removed it's all been a storm in a teacup and we can go back to worrying about more serious things 

You're saying that individual climbers bear responsibility for the behaviour of every single climber. That's absurd.

It's not hypocritical to call someone out for dropping litter if you don't yourself drop litter. It's not hypocritical to call someone out for egregiously abusing the outdoor environment when you yourself don't egregiously abuse the outdoor environment.

If they had been removed already it could only have been achieved with a good scrub. If the HKs' butler or one of the footmen has been sent up there to do that I would suggest 'the problem' is that any lichen growing there has also been removed and that a sort of dilute slurry of the original paint plus some detergent has been poured into the ground at the base of each boulder.

Perhaps not a great deal of damage to the environment up there in the scheme of things, but still significant and completely unnecessary.

In reply to everyone arguing with Tom:

I don't mean any kind of criticism at all by this, god knows I'd be the last person in the world entitled to that - but you do realise you're playing pigeon chess right?

Tom's theory is that nobody is allowed to object to *anything* so long as anything arguably worse is happening anywhere in the world. There's probably nothing to be gained by exploring that further.

• 40 People going for a Run is a good thing.
• A few people making it happen, and making a load of money, is a good thing.
• The chalk all over, not so great, little flag things or something on sticks would have been better.
• Does the chalk kill Lichen, personally I would be surprised they would have used it if it did.

Just find it fascinating all the people getting worked up, but do not actually do something about it.

EDIT

Change of tack here, the chalk is not the real problem. The people behind it seem to be Primal Adventures https://www.primal-adventures.com/4x4-adventures/ , not so sure I am keen on "If you’re in need of a thrill, Primal Adventures’s 4×4 Off Roading Holidays are just what you need! Our 4×4 Adventure Tours are a fun, fast-paced and unique experience, which is perfect for family holidays, corporate trips and incentive trips."
A bit of chalk and a few runners I can cope with, but an ersatz Jeremy Clarkson zipping past me in his 4X4 I would struggle with.

I agree.

Don't twist my words.

My stance is simply that people guilty of an offence should not criticise others for committing similar offences.

To the man in the street , leaving a line of bolts up a crag might be seen as a worse offence than leaving some removable chalk waymarks. 

Its worth bearing in mind that climbers often have a different point of view than non climbers about what is permissible and what is not.

All I'm doing is supporting the comments made by Cusco and JLS on Friday afternoon, nothing more, nothing less.

"Storm in teacup" weve not had a good rammy like this since the bench on Ben Nevis.

Why do you think these exceptions are acceptable?

I agree.

It isn't chalk, it's paint. Which may or may not contain chalk, or gypsum or whatever - in an emulsion with dye, solvents and other stuff squirted out of a pressurised can by a propellant.

You'd be surprised if they'd have used or of it was harmful to lichen. I'd be surprised if they'd done any research at all, otherwise why would they not have marked and marshalled the route using the same basic good practice that any other feel race or ultra would?

Had to scroll past a lot of the thread due to side issues being raised from this. The chatter is great but there are ways to put pressure on events like this by looking at who sponsors it, who puts their name on it and who manages the land. Some of the links have been posted here for that. The collective anger here could be shared and used to great effect.

Could the article be updated with links perhaps?

Thrudark clothing, Precision fuel and hydration and Resilliant nutrition sponsor this event. I wonder if they have seen this? Has Ran Fiennes seen it?

It's particularly bad press for Garmin.

"Our gps watches are so crap that these elite Highland Kings needed environmentally damaging waymarkers to tell them where to go."

UKC will without fail call out bad practice in climbing and there have been some pretty high profile examples.

I'm less of a climber and more of a runner these days and that extends to administration of the sport and race organisation. I can say with a high degree of certainty that this is very bad practice.

Acceptance that everything that we do has some degree of environmental impact, and debate about how we should approach that as organisations and individuals is part of the debate in running as much as it is in climbing. What we are looking at hear isn't about "could we do this better?". It is a case of bad practice.

My daughter climbed Goat fell when she was only 4 years old. Under her own steam and mostly out front. Fueled with countless sweets she didn't shut up till 10.30pm. She could assist next event if they are so dysfunctional at navigation.

Fair question. They contribute massively to local economies and are inclusive of the wider public. They're non-exclusive and hugely popular in terms of spectator engagement and don't take place on sensitive environment land, SSSIs or on (as opposed to in) rural/agricultural land. The two examples I gave also have the massive tradition factor and it would be unthinkable for them to vanish from the cultural life of their respective places. 

++ this

Walt Whitman would like a word...

Too subtle for me, I'm afraid, but at least it got me browsing his ten greatest poems so thanks for the prod. 

The one I had in mind was

   "Do I contradict myself?

   Very well then I contradict myself,

   (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

Although having browsed through some of his other quotes, I can see more that might be applicable to this thread:

   "Not I, nor anyone else can travel that road for you.

   You must travel it by yourself.

   It is not far. It is within reach."

and

   "Have you learned the lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you? Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed passage with you?"

and of course

   "I sound my barbaric yawp over the roofs of the world"

I just spent a few minutes wondering why the multitudes line sounded familiar then it clicked. It's in a recent Dylan song.

At £15k for 4 days instead of mere soigneurs they should have had personal butlers in uniform running beside them fully trained on the route and offering cups of tea and piggybacks if they got tired.

Evidently they had personal butlers running off to buy them ice cream https://www.trailrunningmag.co.uk/articles/news/the-finish-is-in-sight-for-... (be sure to steel yourself before reading that puff piece...) 

I assume that is just an unedited press release.

I used to get the 7am ferry over. I would leave a bag with clean T shirt and towel behind the War memorial. Run up and down. Get my lunch from the Coop. Get the 11.15am ferry back. Shower at work and be back at my desk at lunchtime. Never got to beat my 2 hour run from Brodick. Got close with 7 minutes over. It was a bit surreal especially when I did the Sannox, Rosa run and standing at the Saddle knew I would be back at work shortly. It was visable across the Clyde at Hunterston. It was such a buzz to feel so remote yet still able to be at the work in the afternoon.

I particularly liked this bit:

"Reflecting on the day’s running, Ricky says: “This isn’t like anything we’ve ever done before, but if there’s one part that feels more like your traditional honeymoon, it’s the butler service to our tents in the morning with our drinks order."

It was supposed to include seven months of training/support plus some thrudark clothing (which if you manage to look at their website without collapsing into laughter for long enough to read the prices probably accounts for 14999.99 of the cost).

I've always thought the paint that's plastered all over Fontainebleau to be a mess and unnecessary. And it's permanent. But that's okay because we're climbers so we're allowed to do stuff like that.

I didn’t realise Font was in Scotland. 

Has it occurred to you that other people might agree that it’s an unnecessary mess and that’s why they don’t want to see similar in the UK?

It's also in France where they do all sorts of other things differently as well. Via Ferrata, bolts anywhere that anyone wants to put them, alpine trails marked with paint etc etc etc.

Yeah, fair point.

I doubt Highland Twits would get away with freelance tags like that in the French Alps. Would be confusing and not part of the accepted format for marking.  

Worth remembering this is one outfit, one event so far.  Were this to take off........

Any news about vandalism in Argyll from previous days?