Hillwalking inspiration, supported by you

Hillwalking inspiration, supported by you

Please help UKHillwalking continue to provide varied and free content by becoming an official UKH Supporter. You can show your support and with recieve rewards.

Please help UKHillwalking continue to provide varied and free content by becoming an official UKH Supporter. You can show your support and with recieve rewards.

Loading Notifications...

NEWS: Become a Supporter of UKClimbing and UKHillwalking

Please Register as a New User in order to reply to this topic.
 UKC/UKH News 06 May 2020

During the past six weeks, we have seen our traffic increase as people spent more time at home and reached out to their virtual communities for support. At UKClimbing and UKHillwalking we have been proud to have played a small part in facilitating this community spirit with our informative news, inspiring articles and quizzes. In order to continue to do this, we are asking for your help by creating a Supporter scheme to work across both of our web sites.



Read more
Report
 jpd 06 May 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I'm probably just being blind, but where is the Supporter (not plus) option? Underneath the table comparing the two levels of support there is just the SupporterPlus option.

Edited to add: 

Hmm. If I look at my profile, apparently I'm already a supporter. Not sure how that's happened, but the edit box I'm typing this in has a "Become a Supporter" button underneath it, so it looks like some pages think I'm already a supporter, but others don't. 

Post edited at 16:16
Report

In reply to deepsoup:

It does say they plan to keep it going after the crisis, so it seems the current situation was the catalyst for this.

Report
 deepsoup 06 May 2020
In reply to RX-78:

So it does - I'd missed that.

Report
In reply to jpd:

> I'm probably just being blind, but where is the Supporter (not plus) option? Underneath the table comparing the two levels of support there is just the SupporterPlus option.

You are an App Subscriber. For App Subscribers the only option is to upgrade to SupporterPlus which you are only charged £14 for. This gives you the full SupporterPlus benefits.

> Hmm. If I look at my profile, apparently I'm already a supporter. Not sure how that's happened, but the edit box I'm typing this in has a "Become a Supporter" button underneath it, so it looks like some pages think I'm already a supporter, but others don't. 

This might just be a cache/refresh issue but I'll get Martin to check.

Alan

Report
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Is it possible to become a Supporter or SupporterPlus without the modified username header?

Apologies if this has been answered before.

TJB.

Report
In reply to The Jazz Butcher:

> Is it possible to become a Supporter or SupporterPlus without the modified username header?

Yes, go to your Supporter Account under User. You can turn the badges off.


Alan

Report
 remus 06 May 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Out of interet what is the logbook badge meant to look like? I had a go at turning it on but couldn't see anything different.

Report
In reply to remus:

> Out of interest what is the logbook badge meant to look like? I had a go at turning it on but couldn't see anything different.

It is quite subtle. It appears in the ascents lists under climbs next to Supporter's name.

Alan

Report
 Oceanrower 06 May 2020

In reply to deepsoup:

> If I were going to set up a recurring annual payment for something I'd rather use a direct debit for that than give someone permission to charge my credit card willy nilly without asking me first.

Agreed. I've had a situation in the past where an insurance company has this system. After setting it up and forgetting about it I was issued a new card by the bank. Same account number but different card expiry date.

Some months later, bounced payment and 12 quid fee...

Report
In reply to Oceanrower:

> Agreed. I've had a situation in the past where an insurance company has this system. After setting it up and forgetting about it I was issued a new card by the bank. Same account number but different card expiry date.

> Some months later, bounced payment and 12 quid fee...

I don't think that happens as standard. Who is charging the fee in this case?

For our system, when payments fail because of new cards they just fail and no money changes hands. If you are worried though, become a subscriber then go to your options and cancel your subscription that way the next payment will never be made.

Alan

Report
In reply to jpd:

> Hmm. If I look at my profile, apparently I'm already a supporter. Not sure how that's happened, but the edit box I'm typing this in has a "Become a Supporter" button underneath it, so it looks like some pages think I'm already a supporter, but others don't. 

Ok, we have looked into it. There was a bug that showed existing app subscribers as Supporters on their profiles. That should now have been removed.

As stated above, if you are an App subscriber already then the only supporter option you get is the upgrade for £14 for a year which gives you the discount on Rockfax books and the badge.

Alan

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Woohoo, I'm in. Now to checkout the app

Report
 Oceanrower 06 May 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Thinking about it, you're probably right. Fee to the insurance company for a missed payment.

Report
In reply to deacondeacon:

This also means that if you ever climb with Theo again, he has to carry all rack, ropes etc...

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

£50 seems good value to me for all the information and entertainment I get from UKC. 

Report
 deepsoup 06 May 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

> Agreed. I've had a situation in the past where an insurance company has this system. After setting it up and forgetting about it I was issued a new card by the bank. Same account number but different card expiry date.

There's that - if I wanted to set up a recurring payment for next year that's not necessarily going to work if the card has a different expiry date & security number by then.

My concern (not about UKC specifically, but about this kind of thing generally) is the opposite though.  I've had a situation in the past where I told an insurance company I did not want to renew and they took the premium the following week anyway.  An honest mistake I'm sure, and after a phone call I got the money back with a slightly grudging apology.  But if I'd cancelled a direct debit they would not have been able to take the money.

Report
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Damn good value if you ask me. I haven't climbed for about 2 years now but I love this forum, it's my go to place for information on current affairs and just about any subject you can think of. 

£5 a month works out at pennies per hour for the amount of time I spend reading on here. 

Report
 jbrom 06 May 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Highly possible that I’m being a bit thick, but it’s a bit hard to work out the pricing structure particularly when only one option is shown.

Currently as an app subscriber I pay £4 a month (£48 a year) and I think that for a £14 top up I can become a supporter plus, which will give me the app that I already have access to, plus the extra benefits including a discount on print books and UKC benefits.

Makes sense.

However I think if I cancel my Rockfax subscription I could then become a supporter plus for  £50? With app access, rockfax book discount and forum benefits.

I’m all for supporting UKC but it does seem a bit ‘insurance renewal’ prioritising new customers and financially penalising those who already have the app. Happy to pay a top up to become a supporter plus, but would have thought that ‘top up’ should apply to all?

Report
 John Aisthorpe 06 May 2020
In reply to jbrom:

It's just not explained clearly. Apparently a "supporter" means you have an app subscription.

"Supporter plus" means you have an app subscription and have paid the £14 upgrade.

On the table comparing the two why does it say there is no app subscription with "supporter" since as I understand, it is an app subscription? Very confusing.

Report
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> This also means that if you ever climb with Theo again, he has to carry all rack, ropes etc...

Or you!  

Report
In reply to John Aisthorpe:

> It's just not explained clearly. Apparently a "supporter" means you have an app subscription.

Ok, that isn't true. I am interested where you saw this though so that we can clear the wording up.

> "Supporter plus" means you have an app subscription and have paid the £14 upgrade.

Not necessarily. You can become a SupporterPlus by upgrading your existing app subscription if you had one. If you didn't then you need to pay the full Supporter Plus rate.

> On the table comparing the two why does it say there is no app subscription with "supporter" since as I understand, it is an app subscription? Very confusing.

There isn't so the table is correct but I am interested where you got this impression from.

Alan

Report
 John Aisthorpe 06 May 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

I see. I misunderstood one of your previous comments about the "not plus" supporter. It seems confusing for people with an app subscription as it looks like we can stop our app subscription and then just pay £14 a year for the app instead.

Post edited at 21:04
Report
 jbrom 06 May 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

> Not necessarily. You can become a SupporterPlus by upgrading your existing app subscription if you had one. If you didn't then you need to pay the full Supporter Plus rate.

Hi Alan,

Am I correct in saying that that paying the full Supporter Plus rate is cheaper than upgrading the existing app subscription?

I think some confusion might be arising from not showing all the supporter options on the supporter page?

Report
 Sans-Plan 06 May 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Jeez, some of these replies about the subscriptions and potential unauthorised payments read like this is some sort of scam website or it’s the posters first day on planet earth !

Post edited at 21:13
Report
In reply to jbrom:

> Currently as an app subscriber I pay £4 a month (£48 a year) and I think that for a £14 top up I can become a supporter plus, which will give me the app that I already have access to, plus the extra benefits including a discount on print books and UKC benefits.

> However I think if I cancel my Rockfax subscription I could then become a supporter plus for £50? With app access, rockfax book discount and forum benefits.

Ok, thanks for pointing this out. There was a problem here with the options presented to people who had a monthly app subscription. They were only being given the £14 annual upgrade option (which is actually a basic £36/year plus £14 = £50/year which makes sense for annuals, but not for monthlys).

If you are a monthly app subscriber then you can't directly upgrade to become a UKC Supporter, you just need to cancel your current app subscription and take out a UKC Supporter when appropriate.

This has now been changed. Apologies.

Alan

Report
 jbrom 06 May 2020
In reply to John Aisthorpe:

I think that the page only shows what is available to you as a subscriber so £14 top up. If I look at the page on a browser with no cookies then I can see all options, which shows a supporter plus fee that is cheaper than the app subscription plus the top up.

it isn’t the clearest.

Report
 jbrom 06 May 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Thanks Alan.

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Done! UKC had given me so much, it’s time to give back. I hope you get back on track soon, big love

Report

In reply to deepsoup:

Would it be worth them looking into DD via GoCardless?  You have more protection then (not that I'm saying UKC *would* take the mick) and the fees are I think cheaper than most card processing, so a win-win?

Report
 deepsoup 06 May 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

Thanks for the suggestion, maybe that would be worth looking at for something else in the future.  It isn't really a matter of trust (well, not in this case anyway) - it's more that I don't want to use my credit card that way.  I think of it as a thing for making a one-off payment right now, not as a thing for setting up future payments (regular or otherwise) to then go through automatically.

I don't think UKC would take the mick either, but similarly if I'm being asked to chip in voluntarily for something now I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to be allowed to do that without making a commitment to chip in again next year even if it is easily cancelled again afterwards.

So, who's going to be first to upload a photo directly into a post then?  I think I'll miss the 'cleanliness' of there not being photos embedded directly in the forums.

Report
 snoop6060 06 May 2020

In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

I think the supporter name banners are too subtle. Perhaps you can make them flash or play a trumpet sound when they scroll by when reading the forum

Report
In reply to snoop6060:

I've turned the banner off.  I am contributing but I'm not sure I want to shout about it, donating to things is a personal choice as far as I'm concerned.

Good that that option is there.  Maybe it would be better a little more subtle, like a little icon the size of the email envelope button, a bit more like the way Strava does it.

Post edited at 22:24
Report
 pasbury 06 May 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

Might be better if the banner wasn't so blooming obvious. I will probably contribute but do I really want a big black stripe across my user name?

Supporters look like they're about to be executed!!

Report
In reply to pasbury:

You can switch it off so you display as a normal user, I think it's too "shouty" so have done this.  If it was a very small icon (look at how Strava do it) I would probably turn it back on.

Report
 pasbury 06 May 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

Ok thanks, probably should have read the thread a bit more thoroughly.

Interesting to see the interpretation of payment as support - a bit like the guardian do. 

I prefer this model. It seems that the trajectory for all other media consumption on the internet is towards a subscription model. That encourages silos of opinion and thought.

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I've just handed over my credit card details, and I can only say that I'm absolutely bloody livid!

I'd read the scheme as UKC Sup Porter and assumed that I was joining an exclusive boozing club, rather than being awarded a poxy virtual badge!

Where do I send my complaint to? 

Report
 pasbury 06 May 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> So, who's going to be first to upload a photo directly into a post then?  I think I'll miss the 'cleanliness' of there not being photos embedded directly in the forums.

I think Alan already did up thread. I bet he's stroking his beard right now.

I desperately want to post a gif of a cat doing something weird - should I support UKC?

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I have to admit that I find this all a bit weird. I have absolutely no interest in the app, so I am basically being asked for a voluntary subscription, effectively a charitable donation, to UKC. Now I can afford £20 and if it was a compulsory subscription I would consider it good value and would happily pay, but, when I give to charity, I don't advertise the fact - I never tell anyone or wear any of those little badges. So I am uneasy about paying for the (slightly sinister looking!) black banner, but would feel that I am being shamed by its absence if I don't, or do pay but turn off the banner. A bit of a dilemma.

Post edited at 00:03
Report
In reply to pasbury:

> Supporters look like they're about to be executed!!

When I first saw it I thought it must be some sort of warning of a ban or proabation on return from a ban!

And just noticed the black clenched fist thing - is this a branch of ISIS or something?

Post edited at 00:14
Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Please ignore my earlier comments; I take it all back.

This new initiative is the best thing that's ever happened to the site!

... Here's a photo of an owl in a bath:

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Is this a clever ploy to encourage people to buy the back catalogue of RF guides to the extent they haven't already? The discount is a great idea, we can all do with some new destinations to dream about visiting one day.

My evil plan to mount a hostile takeover of UK Climbing Limited will have to wait though ;-)

You might need a space between UK and Climbing in the web page footer by the way.

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Can we get the support banner a little more subtle please. Perhaps just having the little 'wanking wire' logo next to our name would be better.

Report
In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm assuming that regular, frequent (*) users will be more likely to become supporters, but if like you they want it hidden then supporters who are "out" might end up wondering why other regular, frequent users are not supporters and feel annoyed that the "non-supporters" are somehow taking advantage of UKC.

This runs the risk of becoming a two class system where supporters look down on "non-supporter" users.

(*) - having started a thread a little while ago about misuse of the word "regular", I now find myself hamstrung because I go to use the word and immediately feel "hoist by my own petard" - damn 😀

Report
In reply to deacondeacon:

Yeah, stick it next to the envelope without changing the colour of the top bar of the post, just as a little icon.

Post edited at 06:43
Report
In reply to pasbury:

> I prefer this model. It seems that the trajectory for all other media consumption on the internet is towards a subscription model. That encourages silos of opinion and thought.

I think that's OK for something like the forums bit of UKC - there are a load of us who use it lots and probably relatively few who use it occasionally (and still can anyway).  I do however think it's a bad thing that if I want to read a news story on a given paper I have to subscribe.  I'd rather see a "micropayments" system for that sort of thing - say pay 10p for the article - and I'm really surprised nobody has done that yet as it's been talked about for years.

I'd far rather pay to read an article than the invasive way ads tend to be used.  (note: I don't find the way UKC does ads is invasive).

Post edited at 06:43
Report
In reply to deacondeacon:

Given the feedback I suspect we'll review this later today.

With that in mind it'll either be more subtle, as per Neil's suggestion, or flashing like a disco glitter ball - it clearly isn't obvious enough ;-)

Thanks to everyone that's subscribed so far too.

Post edited at 06:57
Report
In reply to deacondeacon:

Do you mean more like in the logbooks, just by your name but no change in background colour - I think that would be better.

BTW - love your description of the logo 😀

Post edited at 06:52
Report
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Do you mean more like in the logbooks, just by your name but no change in background colour - I think that would be better.

> BTW - love your description of the logo 😀

Exactly, just a, little logo about the size of a letter.

And lol

Report
 JLS 07 May 2020
In reply to deacondeacon:

I expect “wire wankers” will get their own exclusive forum soon.  

Post edited at 07:28
Report
In reply to JLS:

> I expect “wire wankers” will get their own exclusive forum soon.  

Hope so, I'll moderate it. 

Report
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Yeah, stick it next to the envelope without changing the colour of the top bar of the post, just as a little icon.

No, remove it all together. I really don't like the arm twisting of this two tier system.

Report
In reply to Robert Durran:

One thought on it, isn't it (and the Grauniad "patronship" thing) a bit like "shareware" software that used to be quite common?  That said, how many people were on day 2,582,472 of their 30 day evaluation period of Paint Shop Pro? :D

Report
In reply to deepsoup:

> So, who's going to be first to upload a photo directly into a post then?  I think I'll miss the 'cleanliness' of there not being photos embedded directly in the forums.

You can hide the photos in your User Options > Forums

Alan

Report
In reply to Robert Durran:

I have a distinct feeling that if we had instigated a compulsory subscription model you - and likely a great many others (UKC staff included!) - would have hit the roof; as such, we decided to take the soft Guardian-esq approach whereby users can contribute of their own accord, without articles being stuck behind a highly annoying paywall.

When it comes to promoting the fact you've contributed, that option is a personal choice - you can turn it off within the supporter options. Some may be alright with it, others not, so it's down to you (like the thumbs up/down button).

I can assure you the intention was never to shame anyone, because in spite of how we might come across on the Forums from time to time we're not sociopathic

Post edited at 08:53
Report
In reply to Robert Durran:

> No, remove it all together. I really don't like the arm twisting of this two tier system.

Just to be clear, the reason we're actioning this is so that the site itself isn't removed altogether - which do you consider to be the lesser of two evils?

Post edited at 08:43
Report
 Rob Parsons 07 May 2020
In reply to Darren Jackson:

> ... Here's a photo of an owl in a bath:


Now that's more like it!

Report
 Sans-Plan 07 May 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Any chance you can add PayPal to the subscription payment option ? 

That's what i use for Netlfix, Zwift etc. pretty easy to control and cancel too, or is that not an easy thing to do ?

Report
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> I have a distinct feeling that if we had instigated a compulsory subscription model you - and likely a great many others (UKC staff included!) - would have hit the roof.

No, I would have happily paid, even if it were significantly more than £20. It would be excellent value for money.

> ........ we decided to take the soft Guardian-esq approach whereby users can contribute of their own accord.

And that would have been fine as well.

> When it comes to promoting the fact you've contributed, that option is a personal choice - you can turn it off within the supporter options.

Sorry, but that is missing my point - if I choose not to promote my contribution, the assumption will probably that I am one of the stingy freeloaders and I don't want that for myself or anybody else. So my arm is effectively being twisted and my instinct is to resist.

> I can assure you the intention was never to shame anyone, because in spite of how we might come across on the Forums from time to time we're not sociopathic

Well, in that case, why not suggest a minimum anonymous donation. If you had done so, I would have paid, probably quite generously, by now.

Report
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> Just to be clear, the reason we're actioning this is so that the site itself isn't removed altogether - which do you consider to be the lesser of two evils?

Yes, I entirely get that. And I probably will pay. I just don't like the way it is being done.

I suspect the dynamics of the forums (and even maybe the photo voting!) will change with the two classes of ostentatious payers and the rest.

Post edited at 09:17
Report
In reply to Darren Jackson:

I'll see your owl and raise you a baby goat in a bath.

 

Report
In reply to Robert Durran:

> No, I would have happily paid, even if it were significantly more than £20. It would be excellent value for money.

Not everyone is you though. You're active on the forums, logbooks, have submitted articles and no doubt read a tonne of them too - hence you are in a great many ways a spiritual 'site supporter' already. For those that come from time to time, or are short on cash, it would be a lot less appealing to visit the site if we put everything behind a paywall and - as a result - we made it into more of an exclusive/paid-for club. 

> Sorry, but that is missing my point - if I choose not to promote my contribution, the assumption will probably that I am one of the stingy freeloaders and I don't want that for myself or anybody else. So my arm is effectively being twisted and my instinct is to resist.

I think your default view on this - and potentially everything - is to think of the negative first, because that is certainly not how I view it or likely anyone else working for UKC. I'm also confused by the fact that you think you're having your arm twisted by something that is fundamentally optional, whereas you're completely ok with something that is compulsory? I guess the latter is more black and white, but either way we weren't intending this to become some sort of red mark against your name if you didn't have one - it's just a positive if you do.

> Well, in that case, why not suggest a minimum anonymous donation. If you had done so, I would have paid, probably quite generously, by now.

We have a simple, two-tier system which you're already claiming is too complex and no you want another option? For what it's worth we did consider this, but for clarity we thought we'd keep it simple: become a supporter, get x; become a supporter plus, get x and y. Whilst we could have included a third ad-hoc option, or simply made the whole thing ad-hoc, it wouldn't have been as sustainable in the long run whereas the current system (hopefully) is.

Report
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I suspect the dynamics of the forums (and even maybe the photo voting!) will change with the two classes of ostentatious payers and the rest.

As per my comments about re: negativity this doesn't surprise me. I suspect that the forums will be exactly the same as they were last week and the week before that, aside from the fact there there'll be a few more photographs/pictures uploaded onto them.

Post edited at 09:34
Report
 Rob Parsons 07 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Well, in that case, why not suggest a minimum anonymous donation. If you had done so, I would have paid, probably quite generously, by now.

Suggestion: buy one of their printed guidebooks; use it for bog paper in these straitened times; and tell nobody about it. Should be an all round win-win.

Report
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Suggestion: buy one of their printed guidebooks; use it for bog paper in these straitened times; and tell nobody about it. Should be an all round win-win.

Been there, done that - they're woefully unabsorbant

Report
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator UKH Supporter 07 May 2020
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> Been there, done that - they're woefully unabsorbant


Not one of mine I hope

Chris

Report
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> I think your default view on this - and potentially everything - is to think of the negative first, because that is certainly not how I view it or likely anyone else working for UKC.

I think that is unfair. I am primarily positive about contributing and want the system to work. I am just expressing a reservation about the system.

> I'm also confused by the fact that you think you're having your arm twisted by something that is fundamentally optional, whereas you're completely ok with something that is compulsory?

I am absolutely fine with it being optional. I simply don't like the fact that it is possible to advertise the fact that one has opted in. That is all.

> We weren't intending this to become some sort of red mark against your name if you didn't have one - it's just a positive if you do.

Well I think there is a danger of it being seen as a negative (not by me; I would prefer to see the positive, despite my apparent reputation!).

Anyway, Positive v Neutral or Neutral v Negative; it's all relative.

Post edited at 10:08
Report
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> As per my comments about re: negativity this doesn't surprise me. I suspect that the forums will be exactly the same as they were last week and the week before that.

Well I hope so, but surely you can see the danger of labelling too distinct tribes. 

Report
In reply to Darren Jackson:

OK, I've just coughed up too, mainly because I want to see my new "slightly sinister" black banner and to put a photo in my post. What witchcraft is this? After 20 years of not having photos in posts? Here's my bike surrounded by bluebells as these are two themes of my life over the last 5 weeks (actually it was daffodils at the start of lockdown, now it's bluebells),

Report
In reply to Robert Durran:

Strava have a good system for identification on the app. A small red chevron next to the username shows the user has a premium membership. Its subtle yet distinct and no where near as obvious as the highlighted identification being shown on here. 

Report
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Well I hope so, but surely you can see the danger of labelling too distinct tribes. 

I think we all have an interest in ensuring that this doesn't happen, so let's keep an eye out.

When it comes to negativity vs. positivity, we've obviously met each other a fair few times before and have always got on, but I do think your posting tends to err more towards the negative. If it's meant to come across as positive then that's nice to know, but it clearly isn't being interpreted that way judging by the feedback on other threads.

Not really sure what the solution is, other than to view/word things in a slightly less cynical way. We're certainly not intending to shame people, neither are we wishing to twist people's arms into signing up - we're just in a tricky situaiton currently and wanted to come up with a scheme that rallied support  for the site in as positive a way as possible.

Report
 Grit4Life 07 May 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Great to see so much support coming out for UKC and lots of people signing up. I will be too come the end of the month. 
It would be helpful to see a similarly sympathetic approach being given to climbing walls by ukc. In the coming weeks there will be many walls looking at ways to safely and responsibly allow their customers to return while still protecting their staff and the community. (Sorry clearly biased here!) I found the stream of articles against climbing walls quite unessacery at a time when they will have been making tough decisions and ultimately closing regardless of what ukc published. Most climbing walls closed well before the Friday announcement forcing them too. We too need support, not cries for us to close from a business we have supported through advertising revenue. I look forward to reading the articles about ways climbing walls are protecting customers and staff to enable them to return, perhaps I’ll write a quick one for free, if I can get someone to proof.  I look forward to becoming a supporter of UKC too. 

Post edited at 10:40
Report
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> I think we all have an interest in ensuring that this doesn't happen, so let's keep an eye out.

Good. 

> When it comes to negativity vs. positivity, we've obviously met each other a fair few times before and have always got on, but I do think your posting tends to err more towards the negative. If it's meant to come across as positive then that's nice to know, but it clearly isn't being interpreted that way judging by the feedback on other threads.

> Not really sure what the solution is, other than to view/word things in a slightly less cynical way.

It's funny because I genuinely don't think I do view or word things negatively or cynically - yes, I may make some critical comments, but I would like to think they are always constructive and defensible. I make loads of positive comments too. So the way it comes across to me is that it is the people who accuse me of being negative who have the exact same problem they accuse me of having; they seem to only see the negative comments! That film last week was a hilarious/infuriating case in point, especially when I have been so unreservedly positive about some other films recently. 

But fair enough. I'll try to be more mindful of how I word things in case they come across the wrong way

Post edited at 11:08
Report
In reply to TobyA:

Yup... Bike photos are another rich seam to mine with the dawning of this brave new world!

Report
 Myfyr Tomos 07 May 2020
In reply to TobyA:

Let's hope you don't post a photo of "lockdown bike in snowdrops".

ps. my financial adviser is looking into possible tax breaks re. becoming a supporter.

Post edited at 11:06
Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Quick update for everyone that has provided feedback (and also for those that haven;t): we've updated the headers so that they're subtly darker for supporters (as opposed to black) and moved the supporter badge from right to left, which - in my opinion - looks a lot better.

Hopefully that's to everyone else's tastes too!

Report
In reply to Grit4Life:

Glad to hear that you are becoming a supporter. I also want to acknowledge your decision to make it the end of this month. We don't want people to feel pressured and we are also w=aware that we are far from the only people in difficulty in these times. Please only contribute if you have the means.

> It would be helpful to see a similarly sympathetic approach being given to climbing walls by ukc. In the coming weeks there will be many walls looking at ways to safely and responsibly allow their customers to return while still protecting their staff and the community. (Sorry clearly biased here!) I found the stream of articles against climbing walls quite unessacery at a time when they will have been making tough decisions and ultimately closing regardless of what ukc published. Most climbing walls closed well before the Friday announcement forcing them too. We too need support, not cries for us to close from a business we have supported through advertising revenue. I look forward to reading the articles about ways climbing walls are protecting customers and staff to enable them to return, perhaps I’ll write a quick one for free, if I can get someone to proof.  I look forward to becoming a supporter of UKC too. 

Well, it was actually only one article and we took the publication of that article very seriously. I consulted with a number of climbing wall managers and we had a group conference as a team to make sure we were all in agreement. It was a difficult choice.

We were not "against walls", we were against the spreading of the virus and, at the time, there wasn't much leadership coming from other sources. It also wasn't clear that the government would take the decision out of everyone's control by the end of the week. 

Since then we have been proactively supporting people in lockdown with their training, inspiration and entertainment. We have been working with walls to help rearrange their advertising and we will obviously support them when things do turn around. This last week we have been putting together a couple of articles about how and when the climbing walls might open. 

Feel free to submit an article if you have one. Proof-reading we can do.

Alan

Report
 ChrisJD 07 May 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Add a PayPal option and my money is yours.

Report
In reply to ChrisJD:

> Add a PayPal option and my money is yours.

Sorry Chris but that won't be happening. We have committed to Stripe as our payment provider and that isn't going to change since integrating the payment system is a significant part of the work we have done. Adding a second payment provider isn't possible.

PayPal is a nightmare to work with from a technical point of view, they are also very expensive from a business point of view for accepting payments.

Alan

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Happily paid up. I've had a lot more than £20 worth of info/articles/beta/logbook use/climbing partners/floors to sleep on etc  from UKC over the last 15 years. In fact, given how much time I've spent lurking on here I should probably be charged ground rent, or at least make a contribution towards food and utilities....

The religious arguments of the late 00s alone were worth it

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I am not keen on using my credit card that way but I have now joined because I want to support something that I find valuable, I have turned off the badging though. I also make voluntary payments to Mozilla, Wiki & the Guardian and prefer their methods. 

Post edited at 12:08
Report
In reply to RX-78:

Hmmm.... 

Interesting. 

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Excellent idea!

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Done. All aboard the little black rowing boat. If UKC's up shit creek, we better start paddling.

Report
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator UKH Supporter 07 May 2020
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Tbh I think the two grey shades (supporter vs not) are too similar now,

Chris

Report
In reply to Chris Craggs:

> Tbh I think the two grey shades (supporter vs not) are too similar now,

Maybe they're leaving scope for 48 more.

Report
 mattrm 07 May 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Just to check, if I become a supporter I still see ads?

I would do it in an instant if it meant no ads.

Ohhh, a dislike already.  C'mon people, post up as to why you don't like me saying that.

On that note, I'd also become a supporter if it means dislikes get turned off.

Post edited at 13:02
Report
In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

> I am not keen on using my credit card that way but I have now joined because I want to support something that I find valuable, I have turned off the badging though.

Thanks Keith for your support.

I am slightly puzzled by this credit card thing cropping up. Personally I don't use a credit card for this sort of thing either, I use a debit card and I use that for virtually everything. Direct debits are just a pain because you forget them and need to go to your bank to stop them, not the company/organisation that you are paying. They work ok for bills though where the amount changes.

> I also make voluntary payments to Mozilla, Wiki & the Guardian and prefer their methods. 

Hmm, they have slightly more resources than us, and they probably took longer than the three weeks we did from start to finish. We will look at the options though over the next few months so keep the feedback coming.

On the one-off donation front, would people pitching say £10 to UKC as a one-off want the Supporter reminders removed from the first login of the day and news/articles? If so, for how long?

Alan

Report
 Iamgregp 07 May 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Whilst I would have been happy to chuck UKC a few quid in a time of need, I too have a few issues with the way this has been handled.

I don't like the banner change at all (I'm aware it can be turned off) as this really does create a bit of a two tier user level system – word like freeloader and stingy have already been bandied about (albeit in jest) but it’s portent of things to come. 

Would you want to go into a club where it was free to get in, but if you do pay you get a big shiny badge so that everyone can see you've paid?  No, me neither.

I must have spent many times the £50 on Rockfax books over the years, and have contributed on threads here, started new threads, had discussions (albeit normally I’m being told I’m wrong about something) yet I’m not as much of a supporter as somebody who has paid in 20 quid?

Also I mainly come here to use the forums, which is user generated content, so needs little financial support, so would my money be being spent on this, or on other parts of the site and wider business?  I know that the counter argument to this is that without the rest of the business the forum wouldn't exist but I've been a member of countless forums with huge memberships that have no associated website and are run completely FOC by volunteers.

Also, will there be a supporters only sub forum?  Can somebody answer that?

Report
In reply to mattrm:

> Just to check, if I become a supporter I still see ads?

No, that is not going to happen. We have worked so hard over the last 20 years to provide appropriate well-targeted advertising only. We have resisted all approaches from the horrible third-party advertising providers that are the death of so many sites as acceptable browsing experiences.  The Outdoor trade have been great in supporting us with this approach.

If we removed them from a category of user then the site would be bankrupt faster than an extended Corona lockdown could achieve.

Also, are they really that bad? Are you perhaps judging UKC/UKH based on the horrible jumpy ad experience of sites which have got into bed with the devil?

> On that note, I'd also become a supporter if it means dislikes get turned off.

User (top right) > User Options > Forums - turn it off in your prefs.

Alan

Report
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Done. All aboard the little black rowing boat. If UKC's up shit creek, we better start paddling.

Done. I'm paddling!

Mick

Report
 Iamgregp 07 May 2020

> User (top right) > User Options > Forums - turn it off in your prefs.

That's even worse than seeing them.  

Report
In reply to Iamgregp:

> That's even worse than seeing them.  

Yes, I agree. I think Alan missed the point. It is only possible to hide (NOT switch off) the dislikes if you also hide the likes*. And if you do so, it is still possible for people to dislike your posts "behind your back". 

*I am fine with likes (they are a positive thing), whereas dislikes are a lazy and negative thing

Report
In reply to Iamgregp:

> I must have spent many times the £50 on Rockfax books over the years, and have contributed on threads here, started new threads, had discussions (albeit normally I’m being told I’m wrong about something) yet I’m not as much of a supporter as somebody who has paid in 20 quid?

> Also I mainly come here to use the forums, which is user generated content, so needs little financial support, so would my money be being spent on this, or on other parts of the site and wider business?  I know that the counter argument to this is that without the rest of the business the forum wouldn't exist but I've been a member of countless forums with huge memberships that have no associated website and are run completely FOC by volunteers.

I think you are missing the point slightly and you are also making judgments on what might happen. Perhaps you could give it a chance first?

We don't want anyone to pay if they can't afford it, or simply don't want to. The split on this thread of opinions over public displays of being a supporter and others who want to remain silent contributors (by turning it off in their user options) is noticeable. With that being the case you can't make a judgement about who is or isn't a supporter anyway. As site owners, we certainly won't be judging people.

The forums actually take a lot of financial and technical upkeep but if that is all you use, and you don't feel that warrants paying us anything, then fine.

> Also, will there be a supporters only sub forum?  Can somebody answer that?

No there won't be.

Alan

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I'm wondering if it is worthwhile. 

Report
In reply to Robert Durran:

From our 2019 Readership Survey. 

Report
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH

Mozilla & Wiki because they are Open source and I have contributed for several years now. The Grauniad because it suits my view of life.

I looked to see whether I would get an annual reminder before payment was taken but couldn't find that info. Can you answer it please?

Report
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

> From our 2019 Readership Survey. 

Damned photos!

Anyway, my point stands that hiding dislikes does not make them go away.

Post edited at 13:50
Report
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

My thoughts on the visual look:

1. Forget the different greys - no point

2, Remove the white background from the logo+text, use the grey background

3. Maybe no need for the "UKC Supporter" text, just the logo is probably sufficient

Not a supporter yet, but I will be soon because I certainly reckon it's worth it.

Report
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

£50 a year for UKC AND Theo’s porter services is the bargain of the century 

Report
In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

> I looked to see whether I would get an annual reminder before payment was taken but couldn't find that info. Can you answer it please?

Yes, this is what we have been doing with the app and will do again with this system. It has a single click login link to take you to the Supporter account page. Sent out 1 week before you are due to renew.

Alan

Report
In reply to Wizzy:

I'll send you my bank details ;-)

Report
In reply to Theo Moore - UKC and UKH:

You should be more grateful after I stopped you from decking on tales of Yankee power

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

This is why I love UKC, people will argue about anything at all. Who knew that an optional contribution towards the costs would cause such outrage. I love it.

Here is a photo of our dog in his Biker gear, hopefully this will make a few people smile. 

Report
 Iamgregp 07 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

Agreed, if you don't like people anonymously displaying thier dislike of your post, it's going to be even worse if you know it's going on but you can't see it! 

Report
 Iamgregp 07 May 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Thanks for you reply, I really do appreciate you responding, so thanks for that.

I'm slightly confused about what point I'm missing, what is that?  Perhaps I'm really missing it?!

Bearing in mind the financial and technical support required to run a forum I'd wager they more than pay for themselves in terms site visits and therefore ad revenue?  What do you think?   

Report
 Greenbanks 07 May 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Happy to do this & will action as soon as my working day closes.

However, I'd hope that there are further status categories in the offing...what about Supporter Gold, Supporter Platinum etc etc.

I also think consideration should be given to those who's enthusiasm to pay wanes...with the status of 'Lapsed' being visibly accorded.

A 'Rewards' scheme is also in order: maybe for Supporter you could be given 5 'Likes' as a free starter for each post you make, 15 for 'Plus'...and so on. Platinum would give you 100 Likes and prevent anyone from giving you 'Dislikes'. 

The world's your oyster really!

Post edited at 15:23
Report
In reply to Michael Hood:

Yep.  Literally just make it like the "click to email" envelope, same grey background and no text.

Report
In reply to Greenbanks:

> A 'Rewards' scheme is also in order: maybe for Supporter you could be given 5 'Likes' as a free starter for each post you make.

No, much better to have a free starter of 5 dislikes for the stingy non-supporters. Always best to stress the negatives after all.

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Having spent many hours of my time looking on UKC since it's inception as Rocktalk, I'm more than happy to lend my support!  Would prefer the wire w@nker logo to be a little less prominent, just the hand by the name would be fine. 

Are you going to moderate the photos posted in threads, one good thing about UKC forums is the lack of tedious memes rolled out on every occasion... 

Report
In reply to Iamgregp:

> I'm slightly confused about what point I'm missing, what is that?  Perhaps I'm really missing it?!

We aren't measuring people's worth to us by what they contribute, be it financial, by way of contributions, or by way of book purchases. All of these are valuable and much appreciated. 

You seem to be linking these things. We aren't going to treat people who are long-standing Rockfax users any differently to the way we treat people who have never bought a Rockfax but have become UKC Supporters. 

These are choices you make. If you resent your choices and feel that the price you paid for the book was part-book, part-website, then don't buy the book. If you resent us asking you for money to help support the site because you feel you have done enough, then don't pay it. But don't leverage them against each other.

> Bearing in mind the financial and technical support required to run a forum I'd wager they more than pay for themselves in terms site visits and therefore ad revenue?  What do you think?   

The forums are far from the biggest area of the site these days. Check the UKC Forum and look at the thread views compared to the views on the articles they cover. Also, advertisers are really not interested in forums, they want their products to be on other areas of the site. They want reviews and they want press releases. However, this also misses the point since we don't regard areas of the site by their financial worth.

Alan

Report
In reply to gimmer:

> Would prefer the wire w@nker logo to be a little less prominent, just the hand by the name would be fine. 

You can turn it off under User - Supporter Account:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/user/supporter/manage.php

Report
 mattrm 07 May 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Yes, they're really that bad.  UKC ads are definitely nicer than others, but they're still very annoying.

Hopefully you'll get enough supporters that you'll be able to stop the ads in the future.

Thanks for the tip on removing the likes and dislikes, that's great!

Post edited at 16:55
Report
In reply to mattrm:

> Yes, they're really that bad.  UKC ads are definitely nicer than others, but they're still very annoying.

I must admit that I barely notice them. So they must be pretty ineffective on me!

Report
 Iamgregp 07 May 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

To be fair, you linked these things by asking for a financial contribution to help support UKC, then offering Rockfax App subscriptions and discount on Rockfax books as quid pro quo.  

Do I resent you asking users for a contribution in this way? Mmmmm yeah maybe a bit, maybe because it's a recurring subscription rather than a one off anonymous type thing.

A lot of businesses/ngos/charities are struggling right now and I've done what I can to help where I can - some donations, a charity run (and I hate running!), some paying now for something I won't use until sometime in the future, honoring ongoing payments without expecting to receive the goods or services I normally did in return.

You've created a whole new revenue stream, which is to continue after the crisis is over.  That's slightly different to the other things I've done.

Now, I appreciate if I don't like it I don't need to pay but this is an internet forum where you invite users' thoughts and opinions, and I'm a gobby shite who can't resist throwing his hat in the ring!

So how about this? As a gesture of goodwill send me a PM (or on here if you'd prefer) letting me know the charity of your choice and I'll make a donation on your behalf?  Genuine peace offering that is meant with the best of intentions so I do hope it's taken in that way. 

I'm not a bad person, just mouthy!  

Report
In reply to Iamgregp:

> You've created a whole new revenue stream, which is to continue after the crisis is over.  That's slightly different to the other things I've done.

Wow a business has created a new revenue stream, who would believe it. 

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I'm in; worth it for the site and app IMHO. As a frequent visitor to the forums, crag database, photos & log books I am happy to contribute. 

Agree with some of the others that the banner is too much; the logo thingy is plenty. I guess the logo/banner will be used to drive awareness in future.......

Report
 Iamgregp 07 May 2020
In reply to Dax H:

Well yes.  My use of the term "revenue stream" would seem to suggest that it's not an entirely foreign concept to me.

My issue is that it's recurring, not that it exists.

Report
In reply to Iamgregp:

Hi there,

Going down the subscription route was not a decision that was taken lightly. In fact it has come up in discussion for many years and we've always came back to, no, we want the site as open and free to use as possible.

When we discussed the subscription system last month that was the first time I though, maybe this is the best route to go down in order to maintain what we have. Even then there was much thinking about how we implemented it in order to preserve quality and what we offered our users in return. All along the way there was a definite red line at any sort of paywalled content on the site.

In the end the current situation surrounding the pandemic and the economic impact it's having has really forced us to look at different ways to fund the site and the subscription system was something we could at least enact quickly.

There is absolutely no doubt, as I'm sure you are aware, that even when things return to normal it's not going to be the rapid bounce back that was talked about at the start of the pandemic. It's almost certainly going to be a long slow recovary, and the supporter system at least gives us a better chance of getting through that.

I think we've struck a good balance between keeping things free to use and offering a reasonable way for regular readers to support the site. 

There is absolutely no expectation on anyone, even the most avid users to support us. Everyone has their own situation to consider and that should take priority. However this system will allow folks who do feel they are able to support a site they enjoy a way of doing so.

Regarding what charity you should donate to, I think you should make that decision.

Cheers,
Martin

Report
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Well yes.  My use of the term "revenue stream" would seem to suggest that it's not an entirely foreign concept to me.

> My issue is that it's recurring, not that it exists.

The overheads of running a business are also recurring. 

The site is still free to use with the option of chucking a few quid in the pot if you want to.

96p per week is a price I'm more that happy to pay for both the information and entertainment I get by visiting here. 

Report
 Iamgregp 07 May 2020
In reply to Martin McKenna - UKC:

Thanks Martin I appreciate your answer and your honesty in how difficult a decision it was to make.

Your point that this was something you were able to at least able to enact quickly is a very valid point and perhaps not a factor I had considered so I take that on board.

More than happy to pick a charity unless Alan has a preference ;)

Report
In reply to Dax H:

> The overheads of running a business are also recurring. 

> The site is still free to use with the option of chucking a few quid in the pot if you want to.

> 96p per week is a price I'm more that happy to pay for both the information and entertainment I get by visiting here. 

Totally agree. I was planning to subscribe to the app anyway but I get a huge amount of information from the database, news and forum. Just as with my payments to the Guardian, a few podcasts and other things online, I feel that I should contribute somehow. 

Report
 coinneach 07 May 2020
In reply to Dax H:

Yeah, me too. I’m in the fortunate position of neither me or Mrs C being furloughed so more than happy to contribute.

Plus the opportunity to post random photos!

( if only I could work out how to do it !)

Report
 eroica64 07 May 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Why should I pay to join a web site where my views get aggressively slagged off on the forum?

Report
 Mark Edwards 07 May 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

On looking into this I found the ‘Night Mode’. That is so much easier on the eyes, and the choice of colours just seems so right. Nicely done. Happy to add my support. Although pictures? Really? One of the atractions of the site is the absence of clutter. Let's just hope it doesn't get abused.

Report
 Sir Chasm 07 May 2020
In reply to eroica64:

> Why should I pay to join a web site where my views get aggressively slagged off on the forum?

If you don't want to pay then don't. But I think that paying and assuming your views won't be slagged off is quite optimistic. 

Report
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator UKH Supporter 07 May 2020
In reply to eroica64:

> Why should I pay to join a web site where my views get aggressively slagged off on the forum?


You don't have to pay, isn't that the whole point of what has been set up?

Chris

Report
In reply to Mountain Spirit:

> I'm wondering if it is worthwhile. 

Stop wondering. Yes it is worthwhile.

Mick

Report
 Myfyr Tomos 07 May 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Go on then. I'll stump up - certainly worth it, if only for the "Let's have a joke" thread. Well done all, helps to keep us sane, well, sort of...

Report
In reply to mattrm:

Whilst I don't agree with the idea that paying should remove ads, I do agree that some of them (the moving ones) are annoying and distracting. I have seen a lovely pair of shoes multiple times over, moving while I am trying to focus on something else. Much happier if static after the first run through. 

(After posting my post the next ad was for a pair of anasazi pros, no moving content needed and I still glanced at it)

Post edited at 21:40
Report
In reply to Mick Ward:

Why do they need/want more money?

Sav

Report
 Sir Chasm 07 May 2020
In reply to Mountain Spirit:

From the op:

"the lockdown has affected everyone hugely and the outdoor industry is no exception. Shops are closed and this means that the chain of supply, manufacture and design of outdoor equipment is on hold too. We rely on advertising from the outdoor industry to keep the sites running. With the freeze of the outdoor industry comes a freeze in the income which supports UKClimbing and UKHillwalking. As such we're in the strange situation that whilst our traffic has increased, our main source of income has decreased."

Report
In reply to Iamgregp:

You realize that all these UKC employers replying to your messages need to be paid don’t you? They are not doing this for the love of it. And bow the ad revenue is down they need our help, the community of climbers. So either support it, or don’t, but I think they are asking is fair and I have done it in very sensible way. 

Report
 Andy Moles 08 May 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Agreed, if you don't like people anonymously displaying thier dislike of your post, it's going to be even worse if you know it's going on but you can't see it! 

Nah. Just turn them off. You'll never go back.

Whether there are buttons or not, some people won't like what you say. If you can't see it, it's much easier not to care.

The worst thing about the Dislike button is that it tends to derail every other topic into an argument about the Dislike button. Maybe we should have the option to hide all clauses within posts that mention the Dislike button. Or even better, a dedicated opt-in Dislike forum, for the die-hard masochists out there.

Report
 deepsoup 08 May 2020
In reply to Andy Moles:

> The worst thing about the Dislike button is that it tends to derail every other topic into an argument about the Dislike button.

Very much this.  And while you can turn the buttons themselves off, you can't turn this off.  I've never cared much one way or the other about the dislike button, but I'm sick of hearing about it now.  It needs to go imo.

Post edited at 08:50
Report
 Rob Parsons 08 May 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

> Very much this.  And while you can turn the buttons themselves off, you can't turn this off.  I've never cared much one way or the other about the dislike button, but I'm sick of hearing about it now.


Alternatively, perhaps people could stop whingeing about it? Normally it's the usual suspects who bring up the same issue again, and again, and again.

Report
In reply to deepsoup:

> Very much this.  And while you can turn the buttons themselves off, you can't turn this off.  I've never cared much one way or the other about the dislike button, but I'm sick of hearing about it now.  It needs to go imo.

I think most people would be happy if it were possible to turn off the dislkes without turning off the likes (or vice versa for the perverse).

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Happy to contribute. Even if I don't post so much these days, I'm still reading. All in all, I reckon it's pretty good value for <gulp> nearly 20 years of entertainment. All the best to all the UKC team from here in NZ.

Helen

Report
 deepsoup 08 May 2020
In reply to Martin McKenna - UKC:

> Going down the subscription route was not a decision that was taken lightly. In fact it has come up in discussion for many years..

I think it was unfortunate that a long-considered permanent change was presented purely as a temporary measure in the OP above, and in all but a single sentence of the linked news article.  (Which I missed on first reading.)  I understand the urgency of the "please help tide us over through this crisis" part, and the rush to put a subscription scheme in place sooner than originally planned, but it still inadvertently came across as slightly dishonest somehow imo.

I was happy to chip in, but somewhat surprised to see there was no way I could make a one-off donation without signing up to a recurring regular subscription and authorising further future payments on my credit card.  I tried at some length to explain why I didn't like that above and just got a bit of a kicking for my trouble so won't be revisiting that one.  If it means I'm a bit of a weirdo fine, nevertheless it's my credit card and I'm entitled to choose how I want to use it.

Wikipedia are committed to all their content being available for free too, and they're funded by voluntary donations from their users.  I  value their site as I do this one, so each time they remind me that I've not chipped in for a while (I'm not actually sure now if that's annually or a bit more often than that) I invariably do so.  If the only way I could make a one-off donation to them was to authorise regular payments on my credit card, take out a subscription, make the first payment and then cancel the subscription again, I definitely wouldn't do it and if it's the only way to chip in to support UKC 12-months from now when you ask me again I won't be making a contribution then either.

Report
 LeeWood 08 May 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I could be motivated into Supporting if the forum has a better emoticon range. May seem trivial, but actually numerous social networks provide them, they facilitate more meaningful communication in the cyber world. NB. but I am turned off by folk who post them in series / multiples

Report
 robertmichaellovell Global Crag Moderator UKH Supporter 08 May 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I mean the supporter badge is nice, but it’s not one of these...

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I agree with those who are concerned by the virtue signalling aspect of the supporter icon but I also feel people need to be reminded of what might be considered their obligations. Of course, it's obvious some users will be on their beam ends at present and have to count every penny, which is why a paywall would not be acceptable. This makes it even more important that those who can afford it should contribute. However, without reminders it's very easy to forget. Perhaps it would be possible to publish a little pie chart somewhere prominent each week indicating what proportion of users are currently supporters.

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News: Great idea, and I’m more than happy to support something that has become pretty central to UK climbing culture, a huge source of information and somewhere that I certainly learned a lot from in the earlier years. Couldn’t care less whether there is a badge or not! Imagine having to find information about trips and locations if UKC ceased to exist...

Here’s a pic of my new pup, who reminds me that the whole world isn’t totally shit!

Post edited at 09:58
Report
In reply to deepsoup:

You are making a meal out of this. There’s no ad revenue, UKC wasn’t making lots of money in the first place. Help if you think you getting value out of it and you want UKC to keep going. Don’t if you think you don’t. Simples. 

Report
In reply to Ramon Marin:

Totally agree.

Mick

Report
 deepsoup 08 May 2020
In reply to Ramon Marin:

And if I do want to help but am not currently being offered a way to do so that I'm entirely comfortable with I should just shut up about it because you think it's boring.  Righto.

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

It's potentially a bargain for any new climber. 30% off climbing guidebooks. If they are books you'll buy eventually anyway, then 1 years membership to see them through this dry spell could easily pay for itself. Win win for all concerned. 

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I’m in ! I might even start a thread one day.......

Report
 Jon Greengrass 08 May 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

The Black Panthers called they would like their logo back.

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Very happy to do this. I've found climbing partners in Wales, Cornwall, Aosta (yes really), Australia and Thailand through this forum. Not to mention information about ski-ing in all its forms, gear opinions and where to go recommendations.

That's before we get to the wit, wonder and just sometimes complete 'bonkersness' of opinions on anything from Three Pebble Slab (of course) to Brexit. 

I haven't got a cat or a dog so everyone's spared a photo.

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I realise this has been put together in a bit of a hurry, but I think you've misjudged the rewards.  There does seem to be quite a bit of resistance to the badges.  How widespread that is remains to be seen, but unless I've missed it, so far I don't think anyone has spoken up for them and we don't know whether those displaying it actually want to or simply aren't aware it can be turned off.  Personally I find the badges visually intrusive, and I don't understand why we need to know that someone is a supporter. And while I don't for a moment think that UKC will judge us on whether or not we are supporters, human nature being what it is other users will.  Just look at how turning out to clap the NHS has become a moral obligation rather than a voluntary gesture.  Rather than seeing the badge as a "reward" it's a bit of a turn-off for me, but if I hide it people may think I'm freeloading. 

Neither am I very excited about the app, seeing as I'll have no opportunity to use it for the foreseeable future, and anyway I prefer paper guides for a number of reasons (being an old fuddy-duddy included).  Having said that, if it were to become a long-term thing (which you clearly intend it to) then I'll probably use it, if I'm paying for it anyway.  However I don't see it as much of an incentive myself.  Even when climbing resumes I don't expect to need any more guidebooks during the period of the offer so I don't expect to take advantage of the discount

I'm also not thrilled about threads becoming filled with photos.  The opportunity to link to a picture in the gallery or elsewhere works perfectly well in my opinion.  I can see a case for it in Buy & Sell but not more widely.  I've "liked" Darren's owl, and immediately thought "I shouldn't encourage him"

I'm happy to support UKC during the current crisis, but that's because I want it to survive, not because of these so-called rewards.  If this is to become a long-term model please give more thought to the benefits you will offer.

Report
 JLS 08 May 2020
In reply to Howard J:

>"There does seem to be quite a bit of resistance to the badges."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1jEdDcYQTM&

Regards,

JLS - UKC, third class scrounger.

Report
In reply to Howard J:

I think I agree with you on the badges. I would prefer just a percentage of registered users who are supporters displayed discreetly in a corner so that people can feel "shamed"  but not publicly. 

Report
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I think I agree with you on the badges. I would prefer just a percentage of registered users who are supporters displayed discreetly in a corner so that people can feel "shamed"  but not publicly. 

I agree - I've already suggested something similar above.

Report
In reply to ChrisJD:

I am a PayPal user and I would prefer a PayPal option. 

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Hi Alan

Very happy to set myself up on one the SupporterPlus scheme to keep UKC going. 

Will you also consider allowing people to pay for their previous usage by paying an additional one-off amount?
Cheers
 

Report
In reply to James Oswald:

> Will you also consider allowing people to pay for their previous usage by paying an additional one-off amount?

Hi Wald

Firstly, thanks for your support.

We did discuss this but it doesn't really fit with our intention of making this the ongoing model for the site.

We are going to present banners to nudge non-supporters. Currently, the annual £20 supporter status removes these for a year. Would people who made one-off donations want them removing too? If so for how long? Do they also get the other supporter benefits? What if they donate more than £50?

If people were happy to just donate and get nothing back apart from our thanks, then that might be possible, but as soon as we start integrating it into our already-over-complex system then we have problems. 

Alan

Post edited at 14:15
Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Happy to do so, though the badge is a bit "Black Power".

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Out of interest does the access to the rockfax app continue into the second year if one continues to be a supporter? Thanks

Report
In reply to Mike_d78:

> Out of interest does the access to the rockfax app continue into the second year if one continues to be a supporter? Thanks

Hi Mike

You only get access to the Rockfax App as a SupporterPlus so you would get continued access if you renewed at that rate. 

There is complexity around people who were already App subscribers when we set this up who then chose the upgrade option to Supporter Plus which I think might be what you are referring to.

An Example
- You subscribed to the App in July 2019.
- You upgraded to a Supporter Plus today - May 8 2020.
- In July 2020 you let your App Subscription lapse.

This will stop your app access when it lapses in July 2020.
However, you will still have the extra benefits of being a Supporter Plus - reduced price books on the Rockfax site etc. - until 8 May 2021.

A sort of 'SupporterPlus-a-bit'.

Hope that clears it up.

Alan

Report
In reply to Mick Ward:

I'll become a Supporter on Monday once we know if any changes have been made to lockdown.

S

Report

Haven't climbed since 2011. No intention of resuming, but would really miss this place if it disappeared. I tune in daily basis...it's a cracking forum.

Report
 Andy 1902 08 May 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

What happens if you subscribe and then get banned. Do you get a refund?

Is it ok for me to post a certain pic of a climber whose first name starts with J if I have subscribed?

Report
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Hi Alan. Thanks for the reply, sorry but maybe I'm being a bit thick, can you explain slowly what happens in the following circumstance;

Become a supporter plus May 2020 has 12 months access to the Rockfax app. Renews supporter plus in May 2021, access to the Rockfax app continues for another 12 months? 

I guess a shorter question could be is the access to the rockfax app a 12 month introductory thing? 

Report
In reply to Andy 1902:

I was about to ask a similar question (somewhat tongue in cheek).

Report
In reply to Mike_d78:

> Become a supporter plus May 2020 has 12 months access to the Rockfax app. Renews supporter plus in May 2021, access to the Rockfax app continues for another 12 months? 

Yes, this is ongoing. It isn't a one-off introductory thing. This is the new model we are using. In fact, you may get more in 12 months if we had added other stuff. For example, we are aiming to have a desktop version of the app available sometime in the future and this would probably only be available to SupporterPlus.

Alan

Report
 r0x0r.wolfo 08 May 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

It's a very tempting set of benefits, I can see myself becoming a member in the not too distant future although like many I'm fairly concerned about my medium term prospects.

Anyway, one thing I haven't been able to get my head around, is the idea advertisers don't really care about the forum and would rather see advertisement elsewhere on other parts of the site. The forum is loss-making. However, you also say that preventing a small subsection of forum users i.e. supporters from seeing the ads "would bankrupt [the site] faster than an extended Corona lockdown could achieve".

Surely it's like other services (e.g. spotify / You Tube Premium) where the subscription amount easily outweighs the advertising revenue?

Report
 Andy 1902 08 May 2020
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

The whole ethos of banning posters that could put advertisers off was acceptable (once it became obvious the site was going down the business route). Now it seems they want posters to pay but continue the same line. hmnn....

Report
In reply to Mountain Spirit:

> I'll become a Supporter on Monday once we know if any changes have been made to lockdown.

OK, Sav.

In the meantime, as they say, stay safe!

All best wishes,

Mick

Report
In reply to Andy 1902:

> The whole ethos of banning posters that could put advertisers off was acceptable (once it became obvious the site was going down the business route). Now it seems they want posters to pay but continue the same line. hmnn....

Might I suggest that, if you get banned, it's because you've been a total tw*t.

I've had heated encounters with people on here and never been banned. Conversely, I remember one guy, years ago, who boasted - yes, boasted - that he'd been banned 50 times. For heaven's sake!!!

Forget advertisers. The way I view it is that this place is like going to someone's house for a dinner party. It's their house, their home. How do you behave? Now don't get me wrong, I've had heated encounters with folk at dinner parties. But I've never been asked to leave - possibly because I've never been a total tw*t.

So - subscribe or don't subscribe. Entirely your choice. Be a tw*t. Don't be a tw*t. Again, your choice.

Mick

Report
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator UKH Supporter 08 May 2020
In reply to Andy 1902:

> The whole ethos of banning posters that could put advertisers off was acceptable (once it became obvious the site was going down the business route). Now it seems they want posters to pay but continue the same line. hmmm....


You don't 'have to pay' anything for full access to the site - just the same as you didn't have to pay anything last week,

Chris

Post edited at 21:08
Report
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

> Anyway, one thing I haven't been able to get my head around, is the idea advertisers don't really care about the forum and would rather see advertisement elsewhere on other parts of the site. The forum is loss-making. However, you also say that preventing a small subsection of forum users i.e. supporters from seeing the ads "would bankrupt [the site] faster than an extended Corona lockdown could achieve".

Don't really care is the wrong phrase really. They want their products to be seen in press releases and gear reviews and around editorial. Those aren't on the forums. If we could sustain the traffic to that sort of thing without the forums then the advertisers wouldn't be bothered. Basically, advertisers don't come to the site because of the forums. 

The forums aren't loss-making. Well, they might be but we never consider the separate sections of the site in that way so I don't know, but I doubt it. 

> you also say that preventing a small subsection of forum users i.e. supporters from seeing the ads

We assume that supporters look at other parts of the site, however far worse is the message that excluding advertising gives out. 

Although this misses the point really. We are proud of the advertising system we have created. It is so easy for websites to take the wrong path and be seduced by what appears to be easy money of automated third-party advertising only to discover that you have turned your web site into a cesspit of jumpy graphics that loads thousand trackers and cookies on each page and destroys the reading experience. We have worked really hard to avoid that and create something good that is valued by the industry and we don't want to devalue it by offering to hide it from certain users.

> Surely it's like other services (e.g. spotify / YouTube Premium) where the subscription amount easily outweighs the advertising revenue?

The Supporter scheme has gone very well so far, and we are really grateful to everyone who has become a Supporter over the last three days, however, it has a very very long way to go to equal our advertising revenue. It may do, in which case we would have a rethink but I stand by what I say above. 

Alan

Post edited at 21:29
Report
In reply to Mick Ward:

Thanks Mick

Report
 r0x0r.wolfo 08 May 2020
In reply to Andy 1902:

Like who exactly? It would have to be fairly extreme to put advertisers off surely, at which point they would have violated most internet forum rules..?

Not that I don't think that the odd thread hasn't been pulled prematurely etc. but I haven't seen anything approaching an 'ethos' of doing such a thing. I'd imagine climbing advertisers are probably some of the most laid back (compared to the likes of Disney, Apple etc.). 

Report
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

> Like who exactly? It would have to be fairly extreme to put advertisers off surely, at which point they would have violated most internet forum rules..?

I remember one appalling advert/press release which could quite easily have been a  parody of every pretentious bullshit/ambassathlete thing imaginable. It received all the ridicule it deserved on here and promptly disappeared. I don't think anyone got banned.

Report
 r0x0r.wolfo 08 May 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

> The Supporter scheme has gone very well so far, and we are really grateful to everyone who has become a Supporter over the last three days, however, it has a very very long way to go to equal our advertising revenue. It may do, in which case we would have a rethink but I stand by what I say above. 

> Alan

Yeah, I mean in the examples I gave the premium model hasn't replaced advertising either. As you know they're simply making more money on average from a premium subscriber than a regular ad-served user.

I take your point about the message it sends to advertisers though. Now is not the time to rock the boat. 

Report
In reply to Rog Wilko:

The trouble with "virtue signalling" (i.e. doing the right thing but not invisibly) is the implication that you are only doing it for the signalling. 

I'm happy to support UKC as, like Helen R and others, I have been on here for a long time - it's 18 years since I registered, and was lurking way before that (back in the days of mtn.co.uk - kids, ask your parents).  For all the entertainment and information I have had over the years, it's a good deal.

Although it is some years since I actually did any rock climbing, there are fantastic ranges of interests, skills and knowledge on here that means it is the best place I know to ask random questions - even insanely technical ones - and get good/entertaining/thought provoking answers, bar none. 

The only advantage of the banner I can see is that people might see others supporting and join in - the same reason all self-respecting buskers stick some money in their hats before they start. I quite like the Soviet Peoples Republic of Number 6 Wires (number 8 wires for those of us in NZ, obviously) - and predict the text will be dropped in a few weeks just leaving the icon. 

Meanwhile to Alan and co, I think you have navigated this well and of all the possible models I think this is a good balance. I hope it works for you!

b

Report
 r0x0r.wolfo 09 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I remember one appalling advert/press release which could quite easily have been a  parody of every pretentious bullshit/ambassathlete thing imaginable. It received all the ridicule it deserved on here and promptly disappeared. I don't think anyone got banned.

Ah I don't remember that one, shame! 

Report
 deepsoup 09 May 2020
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

I vaguely remembered that too so I had a bit of a rummage..
It was this stuff: https://www.accapi-group.com/recovery.html

Baselayer clothes made of special fabric that aids post-exercise recovery through the power of woo.  And if you scroll down to the bottom of the page and there's even a kind of magic sock made of the same stuff that you can put over the outside of your water bottle to [ahem] "EMPOWER YOUR HYDRATION"

The link to the article doesn't seem to work any more, but here's an old forum thread: https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/gear/accapi_apparel_infra-red_to_increase_performance-380569

Report
 jimtitt 10 May 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

That was the one, anyone ever try the haemaroid pain reduction properties of the underwear?

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Here's a photo of my new bike just because I can. 

Report
In reply to jimtitt:

> That was the one, anyone ever try the haemaroid pain reduction properties of the underwear?

The one I was thinking of was much more recent from a well known American brand. I remember a photo of their whole pro-ambassathlete team lined up (In Morocco maybe?) wearing different pastel shades of the new clothing line, with spectacularly hilarious bollocks about how the multidimensional activ-wick thermo-string technology (or whatever) allowed them to commune with the cosmos and  probe the depths of their inner selves while bonding spiritually with the local culture (or something along those lines). It really was beyond reasonable parody.

Report
In reply to Mooncat:

> Here's a photo of my new bike just because I can. 

My, what a big seatpost you have... 

Report
 Toerag 11 May 2020
In reply to deacondeacon:

> Can we get the support banner a little more subtle please. Perhaps just having the little 'wanking wire' logo next to our name would be better.


Can I have a star on my belly instead? That way I can go to Frankfurter parties on the beaches.

Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Yesterday UKC was the biggest and the only referer to my blog. 

25 referrals in one day. 

Muchas Gracias Alan, Natalie y todos.

 

Post edited at 14:29
Report
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Was not were 

Report
In reply to Mountain Spirit:

Hi Sav,

Good effort supporting this place! They've given so much to us, over the years. Nice to be able to give a little back, in return.

Mick

Report
 Yanis Nayu 11 May 2020
In reply to Mooncat:

Cracking. Lovely paint job. That steerer tube needs cutting flush though ;-)

Report
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Thanks, but it's a roubaix, the bit that sticks up is the suspension lock knob. 

Post edited at 20:50
Report
 Yanis Nayu 11 May 2020
In reply to Mooncat:

Ah, OK. Hope you get loads of pleasure from it. 

Report
In reply to Oceanrower:

Insurance companies are, of course, shysters.  Everyone else just emails you to say it failed and please enter your new card details.

I too prefer DDs for ongoing payments, though.  It would probably benefit UKC to look at it as the processing fees are lower than card.

Post edited at 07:04
Report
 HardenClimber 15 May 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

If I have a voucher sub to rockfax which expires in August, what do I do? Wait till August?

Report
In reply to HardenClimber:

> If I have a voucher sub to rockfax which expires in August, what do I do? Wait till August?

Hi

The Rockfax vouchers for 6-month app subscription don't have an expiry date set so you should be fine to activate it any time you wish at http://rockfax.app

If there is something on the voucher that indicates it is expiring in August then send it in an email to support@rockfax.com and we can look into it.

Thanks


Alan

Post edited at 11:19
Report
 HardenClimber 15 May 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

It is already 'in use'.

I was wondering how this interacted with becoming a supporter. It doesn't show on my ukc account (and obv will run out in August).

Report
In reply to HardenClimber:

Hi,

Sorry, we thought you had the coupon still waiting to be traded and were expecting the coupon code to expire in August. We see what you mean now though.

We've tweaked the Supporter system to allow for your coupon time to be counted towards your Supporter account. If you check out https://ukclimbing.com/supporter  you should see the upgrade option for yourself now.

Cheers,
Martin

Report
 Fruit 16 May 2020
In reply to Punter S Thompson:

I’d raise you further with a goat on a trampoline, but as I haven’t paid (yet?) I’m not able to post it ;-)

Report
 Snyggapa 21 May 2020
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Could I pay 50 quid, get no rockfax but instead get a gold sparkly badge and the ability to upload and embed videos of animals bathing? Stills just don't do it for me I am afraid

Report
 teh_mark 21:24 Tue
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Can I put forward a case for why the supporter status of a member shouldn't be advertised? It is the year 2023, and the now annual thread discussing the now annual summer lockdown has started and, predictably, has quickly become heated:

longtimefreeloader says: I disagree. I don't see why there's any moral obligation to stay away from Stanage.
longtimesupporter replies: who cares about your opinion? You don't even contribute. Why don't you 'ck off somewhere else?

It will not be good for future forum unity. It is a private matter between the individual and UKC whether that person contributes in any way. Some will on principle, some will not on principle. some will just because the perks are worth it for them, and some would love to but won't have the means to. Whether you intend it or not, you are shaming that latter category. It's human nature, and it will happen.

If it really really needs to be displayed, it should be an icon in-keeping with the icons you already have for email and other similar things. It doesn't need to be visual centre stage, or any more prominent than the other information displayed in the same area.

And the other insanely annoying thing is that, well I don't see why any sensible UK-based climber would choose not to contribute a teeny fraction of their disposable income for the benefits that supporting UKC gives them - but unfortunately I currently have no income whatsoever, and while I'd love to support UKC in future, it's beyond annoying in the present to have a page-filling footnote appear on every new page I browse to, every time, and need cancelling every time. It's not just a little bit at the bottom that's a teeny bit annoying - between the header and the support us box' you can barely see any other content. Every page. Every time.

Report

Please Register as a New User in order to reply to this topic.