UKH

The first nest has just been built at the end of the Cabin Track footpath, in between Huge Slab and Apparent North, below the Trig Point. We are asking for your help to give them the best chance to breed successfully by heeding the signs which have been put up on-site today (Friday 23 April), asking visitors to avoid the area. Only one bouldering problem is affected and walkers are being diverted onto a different path nearby. Huge Slab and Apparent North areas themselves are unaffected. This advice will be kept under review depending on whether the birds are successful or not but if they are successful then the signs are likely to be up until around 28 May.


Other Ring Ouzel activity: The first male and female paired up on the 21st March and were seen actively looking for a nest site on the Popular End, between Trinity Wall and Flying Buttress but they now seem to have given up and left the area.

A third pair are still attempting to nest on the Popular End and have been investigating every crack along the entire length and the bracken beds beneath it. Watch this space for further news.

There are currently no other known pairs on the Estate but there is a pair nesting at Burbage Bridge and there may be one or two pairs on the northern end of the Edge towards High Neb.

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Visit www.peakdistrict.org/stanage/ouzel.htm for further info.

In reply to Matthew Croney: is it ok to go bouldering in the crescent area now? was thinking of stopping over on friday evening...

In reply to Matthew Croney:

As an aside do you know if is there any news on the Ring Ouzel situation on Hen Cloud. There is a ban which the BMC site said would be reviewed around now if there were no nests.

The situation has just been reviewed today (30 April) and the advice for Count's Buttress and Strangler/Crescent areas has been lifted as the birds haven't yet chosen to nest in these areas.

The Rim advice will stay in place for a further month, as the Trig Point nest is close by and the birds frequently use this area for feeding.

The pair that were investigating the Popular End have now built a nest in the bracken below.

Sorry for not getting back to the other comments on this website sooner but: no it wasn't ok to go bouldering in the crescent area but in the event it didn't matter! and sorry but I have no say at the Roaches but understand that it will be the same as last year.

Thanks again
Matthew

Latest:

Thanks to your help, four chicks hatched at the Trig Point nest on Sunday 9 May. Please continue to avoid this area for the crucial feeding period until the birds leave the nest, which we expect to be around 23 May.

Unfortunately, the second nest site in the bracken below the Edge failed, probably due to predation. The birds immediately went back to searching for a suitable site on the Edge - so watch this space!

Apparently, there are 5 pairs in the Burbage Valley, so please look out for them here as well and move away from the area if you hear them "tac-tac'ing".

Thanks again
Matthew

In reply to Matthew Croney:

I saw a male ring ouzel hopping about in the grass and bracken below the Inverted V area on Sunday - maybe looking for a nesting site - but it seemed perfectly unconcerned by the handful of climbers in the vicinity. I think they're quite laid back really, whatever the ornithologists might be telling us!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

They are looking for a site to nest. If you were a ring ousel, would you choose to build your nest in full view of numerous potential predators. We need to give them more space. Why not try some of the western gritstone edges. The new guide is excellent. Or how about a stroll to Ashop Edge?

In reply to l.jennings:

Sure - I spend a lot of time on Ashop and also the w grit edges. Just happened to be walking from Fox House to Stanage and back on Sunday in a big loop (plus bouldering gear, but it started to drizzle). That Ring Ouzel didnt seem the slightest bit phased by anyone (if he were a human being I imagine he would have spoken with a Don Whillans accent). To answer your point: for some reason it seems they DO want to build their nests where there are quite a few people about.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: I do believe that the majority of ring ousel experts would disagee with your point of view. You are speculating on their nesting habits without any research to bolster your opinions.

In reply to les jennings:

Sure. But this one seemed to be very content, and not the least bit bothered by anyone in the close vicinity.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

You cannot make this kind of judgement without understanding/ learning about their behaviour.They need plenty of space. You can just move to another section of the crag.

In reply to les jennings:

Well we can only speculate since we aren't experts and we only have our own expoerinece for research.

However, faced with the fact that Ring Ousels consistently choose to nest on the popular end of Stanage - the busiest bit of gritstone in the world - when there are vast areas of significantly less-busy similar bits of gritstone moorland near by, it is difficult to conclude that they actually detest the presence of climbers. When you add the fact that nesting was not noticably different during the foot and mouth year, and the theory that they may actually like the odd person around to scare away predators, it does seem that the current relationship is probably working as well as anything could.

Alan

In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:

Thanks, Alan, because that is my observation of the way they behave too. Could be they want to have human beings near (maybe they scrounge for food a bit??? No idea!)

Anyhow, we kept very quiet as we passed the nesting area marked off nr southern end path on way back to Higgar Tor, and just moved on.

In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:

I don@t pretend to be an expert myself. However, it does seem to be the case that this pair are having real problems finding a nest site. Whats wrong with giving them some space? I think that the vast majority of climbers would agree with this point of view. They cannot cope with constant disruption. Do you really want a crag environment devoid of birds or other wildlife? Mabe you would prefer an Stanage carpeted with astroturf, fully bolted etc.The place is part of a fragile ecosystem, not a glorified climbing wall.

In reply to l.jennings:

Look, they have huge amount of space up there. It just seems that they're quite happy to nest in the most popular areas rather than the more remote ones. Also, all agreements seem to me to be being well adhered to, and everyone involved is I think quite happy about the way it's working out. Nothing like a glorified climbing wall.

I wonder: have you been up there recently, and seen just how well it is all working out??

In reply to l.jennings:

Don't be ridiculous, and stop trying to sensationlise our opinions in a negative way.

Ring Ousels are fussy nesters at the best of times. The current arrangement whereby people like Matthew alert us to their nesting-patterns, and climbers respond accordingly, seems to work fine.

Alan

In reply to Gordon & Les:

I think Gordon's making a fair point here Les, and it's not like he's proposing we trample all over their nests. I believe it's well accepted that Puffins (for example) quite like a bit of human company (except for when they get their necks rung and are put in pies by starving islanders). Maybe I'm wrong but Hen Cloud doesn't seem to attract Ring ouzels very reliably in spite of the warning notices and various bird bans we've had over quite a few years now, whereas in the last couple of years they've been quite at home at the popular end of Stanage. The current arrangement of bird-banning small selected areas rather than whole crags seems pretty acceptable to them, and Les is dead right - it really is quite nice to see the perky little things flying around while you're climbing.
Shame they came back to Stanage too late to be featured in your Peak book Gordon.

In reply to l.jennings:

Would you prefer to live in a deserted housing area where the only other inhabitants are killers or a fairly busy street where you may get disturbed now and again but the local police stop things getting out of hand? This is what appears to be the birds ploy, safety in numbers of people. Of course we do not want to disturb them too much, If they are getting tamer though and decide to move into your house are you going to move out? Sensationalising disturbance does no good, unless you are the editor of the mirror and know no different.

In reply to Damian Haigh:

Yes, the whole thing is being v well managed by Henry Folkard, and ousels and climbers seem at present to be getting on v well together.

Yup, I wish I had got some natural history into the Peak book. Had a very protracted hunt for wallabies around Ludchurch, but was about 2/3 years too late it seems. (Remember them well in 70s below Roaches Lower Tier)

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I'll think you will find that the Ouzels are nesting round the popular end of stanage because it provides them with right habitat in respect of food and shelter and rather less to do with fact they have a desire for human company. Birds have very specific habitat requirments, why do you think gamekeepers have to manage moorland and not just leave a big load of heather? The grouse need a mixture of fresh young heather, old leggy stuff, grit to help digestion and patches of open water. Ouzels are no different, the quieter areas are probably not the right sort of area so they have to put up with human disturbance. Whilst foraging for food this is probably acceptable, having someone climb/stomp past your precious nest site probably not. Someone walks past your garden - fine somebdy wanders into your frontroom probably not.

In reply to Anonymous: Nobody is "wandering into their front room" though are they? The birds nest then the climbers stay away. It would appear that a slight human presence is preferable as it keeps away other predators. Moreover, the popular end of Stanage may only provide the ideal habitat due to people being there all the time and affecting the natural conditions that would otherwise be more similar to the less popular crags which the birds find distasteful as nesting sites.

In reply to Matthew Croney:
Saw an interesting little bird on top of Stanage last night. Thought at first it might be the legendry Ring Ouzel but a quick google makes me think it wasn't. About the right size and black and white, but rather than a white collar, it had black and white stripes. Anyone any idea what it was ? Cute little critter, but flew away before I could make friend with it.

In reply to Anonymous:

I would argue against the use of a verb like manage (that perhaps implies some sort of method and fundamental understanding of the system) with a noun like gamekeepers. In my experience, they do what they've always done because it seems to suit them, not that they have a quantitative understanding of the environment.

In reply to Swirly:

As long as climbers are sticking to the agreements then yep nowhere near their front rooms. Not convinced about the birds liking humans as they keep predators away though, suspect late at night when most Ouzel predators are at work the human presence is not really much use as there aren't any! Could well be humans trampling down vegetation does help provide the right habitat though, fair point. What worries me is when people start these sort of arguements going is that some people take it as oh the birds don't mind so I'll just go and climb there anyway, then you are in their front rooms.

In reply to davepembs:

True, and I don't think any of those in this thread would do such a thing.
Conversely, the reaction of some people (not you) to any even minor question about current policies is way over the top but sadly indicative of the level of debate with some in the "bird" camp. To merely suggest that maybe they're not so bothered by people as is suggested (while at the same time respecting the reasonable agreement that has been reached) is met by tirades of abuse.

In reply to Jon Read:

Not supporting gamekeepers as such as some them do some very dubious things but the skill of managing a grouse moor is complex and difficult and when done properly as the most are requires a great deal of understanding of the environment, it may well be the way its always been done but thats because its the best way of ensuring there are enough grouse to be blown out of the sky by drunken knobs. If you enjoy the view from Stanage, Derwent, Crookrise or any other grouse moor its down to many years of combined knowledge and skillfull management.

In reply to Chris the Tall:
Pied wagtail I would have thought - there were several around the Tippler on Tuesday night.
To add to the (weird) discussion above, I saw ouzels a few years back on one of the quietest bits of the edge, N of the causeway but S of High Neb, so they obviously aren't so fussy about habitat that the popular end has got something special. The current sytem seems to be working brilliantly - thanks to Matthew, Henry and all (nearly) of us who climb at Stanage and seem to be able to be sensible about coexisting with the ouzels.
SteveC

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Pygmy zebra.

With a parachute.

In reply to SteveC:
Pied Wagtail - yep that's the fella, cheers, how many points do you get for spotting one of them ?

In reply to Chris the Tall:
not many - commonly seen in car parks

In reply to Matthew Croney:some people watch birds, some folk collect climbs. You can even buy guidebooks with little boxes so you can tick the routes.To the many folk who exist outwith the climbing subculture, this would seeem rather bizzar, rather like train spotting. Remember, climbing is one obsession amonst many others.

Gordon Stainforth sees a ring ousel. He can read its mind. He suggest that the ring ousel is happy. Well, if you sight a female ring ousel in the daytime, the chances are it has been disturbed. That means its off it nest and rather peeved. I thought you had an expert who could tell you all this? Where is he?

And a recent RSPB study , based at Stanage, has shown that a pair of ring ousels attemmted to nest 36 times last year , at the popular end. They failed every time ,due to disturbance. They can tolerate people walking past their nest sites. But what they cannot put up with is groups hanging around i.e. climbers congregating in certain places. So spread out and give them a chance. If you do see a ring ousel, why not go to another part of the crag. I would suggest that a large number of climbers at Stanage are simply repeating routes that they have done dozens of times before[obsessive compulsive disorder?]. Why not try something new for a change?

The present arrangement is flawed.

In reply to Anonymous:


I think this is an exceptionally silly reply. How do you know I can read its mind? I can't, and never claimed as much. What I said was that this bird showed no signs of being bothered or distressed in any way by the proximity of humans, and made no effort to move very far away.

I told you also that it was male so your second point is invalid.

There are plenty of experts working with the BMC, and a perfectly amicable agreement has been reached which all parties are now very happy with. I think most of the problems are in your imagination.


A bit like telling a bird watcher to never look at the same bird twice, or a music lover never to put on the same CD! Many climbers do not repeat routes very often. I do occasionally, if its v good, eg. about once every 10-15 years if I've forgotten it.

How were these 36 attempts measured or monitored?

The point you seem to have missed is that ring ousels seem quite keen to nest in well frequented areas, perhaps because the presence of humans keeps predators at bay. (I also suggested that they might benefit from scraps left by human beings but no one answered me on that point.) Why on earth are they so keen on picking the most frequented part of one of the most frequented climbing crags in the world? I cannot believe there is anything partic beneficial about the popular end of Stanage for them, compared with other parts of the very extensive edge - except perhaps the regular presence of human beings.


Explain.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:RSPB study; I'm sure you must kow someone who claims to be an expert on ring ousels . Maybe he could enlighten you .

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:The evidence suggests that they failed to nest 36 times due to disturbance. This negates your asssertion that they can tolerate humans. Empirical evidence suggests otherwise. You are simply wrong!

In reply to l.jennings:

There are now four areas designated by the BMC in conjunction with RSPB (or whoever), one of which (towards the Causeway), mostly neglected by climbers, the ouzels don't seem much interested in. By far the most tricky one right now is not in the Robin Hood area, and is more affected by walkers than climbers, and that is right beside the main path up to the edge in the Stanage Far Right/ Apparent North Area. Explain that!! They have chosen perhaps the most frequented, busy place they could possibly have chosen.

On Sunday this was all cordoned off, and there were notices telling you not to make a noise. As far as I could see this was being obeyed by everyone.

In reply to l.jennings:

I have listened to Henry Folkard talk most expertly at BMC Peak Area Meetings about it. He always comes armed with about a dozen books about Ring Ouzels, BTW, for anyone who is interested in learning more. I am very happy to leave all this in his very capable hands. I suggest you come to the next BMC area meeting (open to all, at Grouse Inn) if you want to see just how sensitively and intelligently the whole thing is being handled.

In reply to l.jennings:

Actually, empiricial evidence proves that they can and do tolerate humans, since there are lots of people there and yet the birds still choose to nest there.

Interesting arguments all round. Unfortunately the only way to actually get a definative answer as to whether the birds are affected by human presence is to have nobody climbing there for a few years, and see whether the population of ouzels increases. Obviously such a thing isn't possible, but I'm fairly sure that, if left completely free of disturbance by climbers they would breed more succesfully.

Though it's a nice idea I don't buy the suggestion that the human presence scares off predators. Somebody made a good point earlier that predators tend to hunt in the evenings/night time and there are significantly less humans around then. There must be something else (i.e. not human presence) that draws the ouzels to the popular end, and not being ouzels ourselves it's quite possible that we will never know.

Of course there has to be a compromise between looking after the ouzels and letting us enjoy a fabulous crag. In my opinion I agree that the situation is being dealt with very sensibly and the bird bans are effective in trying to ensure the safety of the birds while letting us enjoy our sport.

This said I don't agree with the sentiment that the ouzels "don't mind us being there" - they may tolerate our presence simply because Stanage has a strong enough attraction that they see it necessary to put up with us. I would hope that climbers can appreciate this. Of course the vast majority of us would never go into a restricted area, but if I saw an ouzel nearby *outside* a restricted area I would definately up sticks and go and climb somewhere else.

In reply to Alun:

One point which hasn't been mentioned so far, and which I remember Henry saying, is that the sheep have been allowed to graze prolifically over the area over many years which has resulted in a dramatic reduction in the amount of the particular plant (whose name escapes me) that the Ousels feed on. This sounded like an excellent explanation as to why the general Ousel population at Stanage had dropped over the last 20 years, since climber levels there haven't significantly changed over the same time span.

I understand that areas of the moor have now been fenced off in order to keep the sheep away an encourage the growth of this particular plant.

Alan

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
I wonder if anybody checks Bamford for example for Ouzels, similar aspect, altitude, vegetation etc to Stanage - and its shut anyway! Or the area below southern Kinder edges, to name another venue that sees few folks?

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:
I suppose it depends on the nature of this 'something' which people are presuming is at Stanage Popular and which is so attractive to ouzels that they put up with hoards of climbers and walkers. Does anyone know what this 'something' actually is?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I've been naughty enough to suggest it's scraps, but no one has taken me up on that!

In reply to Chris the Tall:


As already mentioned by SteveC, a Pied Wagtail.

But note that this is a much smaller bird than the Ring Ouzel, which, so that you know how torecognise it, is the same size and shape as a blackbird, but has a white crescent shaped 'bib'.

In reply to Anonymous:

To augment the above description, see http://www.arthurgrosset.com/europebirds/ring%20ouzel.html

In reply to Anonymous:

What is it about the popular end of Stanage in terms of 'food and shelter' that the birds are looking for that is different from any other part of the 4 mile long edge?

Mark

In reply to MarkHG:

Has anyone considered that popular = more eyes to notice birds = more birds spotted, and that other pairs are away from the majority of climbers and staying unnoticed? It could conceivably be an artifact of the sampling technique, basically.

In reply to chris tan:
Another point to add to this discussion, the Peak is at southernmost limit of the Ring Ouzels nesting grounds. On the one hand this means that it is even more important to protect them in these areas, on the other hand it also implies that they might not be entirely comfortable this far south (understandable really - I wouldn't want to live any further south either).

Has to be said listening to the birdsong on Stanage on Wednesday evening was lovely. Don't care what birds they are, I'm happy to avoid certain areas to let them breed.

The pigeons who keep cr*pping on my doorstep on the other hand...

In reply to

The Ring Ouzel is often called the 'Mountain Blackbird'. We are 'mountain people' - surely we need to find a way to co exist together? I think the present arrangements are fine.
Darron

In reply to Matthew Croney:
An update on the latest Ring Ouzel situation - Restriction at Cowper Stone and Chippy Buttress

The pair of ring ouzels that have failed twice in the wet sitch below the Edge (not due to climbers activity) are now on Chippy Buttress. The BMC has agreed a voluntary restriction to cover Chippy Buttress and the Cowper Stone, this will last at least the next two weeks, with the restriction on the Cowper Stone likely to be lifted first.

Graham Lynch
BMC Access & Conservation Officer

In reply to graham lynch:

I would suggest that this pair attempted to nest in the wet sitch due to disturbance on the edge. All evidence suggests that this is the case.Where is the evidence that supports your opinion?>

In reply to l.jennings:

What evidence is that then?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:The RSPB report that certain climbers seem unwilling to discuss, why?
And what about the commercial aspects of all this Any kind of restriction, no matter how short orlimited, may damage commercial interests. Too many restrictions are bad for business.Climbers may visit other parts of the peak. Ps Tintwistle Knarr is a great crag, Fine routes and little in the way of polished holods. No retailers though, so your not tempted to spend your brass on yet another useless microcam.

In reply to l.jennings:

I'm not willing to discuss it because I've never heard of it before. Howevber, the RSPB are I believe represented at the Stanage Forum and so are in agreement with the current arrangements, no?


You've pushed it too far now - nice troll before though

In reply to Simon Caldwell:Well I'm there must be someone who could fill you in on the contents of this report. I've heardc that the BMC has an expert on Ring Ousels. Maybe he could enlighten us.Does he know of the existence of such a study? What about its contents? I would like to know.

In reply to Simon Caldwell: ps not a troll. Whats an 'access fund'?

In reply to Matthew Croney: The sound of silence,again

In reply to l.jennings:

It’s worth stating the obvious; climbers are not anti-bird. All over the country climbers respect bird bans year after year. Many climbers are ornithologists, most are instinctively green in there approach and only a tiny minority fail to be moved by the landscape, flora and fauna that provides the backdrop for their chosen obsession.

Secondly, climbers and Ring Ouzel have co-existed at Stanage for a hundred years now and thanks to the latest agreements, that co-existence has now reached a new level of sophistication. That should be a cause for celebration not conflict.

As for the specific requirements for the ideal Ring Ouzel habitat, the crucial factor is a mosaic of vegetation that includes both heather and some short grass to allow them to access the invertebrates on which they feed. For a detailed appraisal, see Burfield (2002).

Crucially, Ring Ouzel continue to absent from other similar areas where there is no recreational use, e.g. Cattis-side. Therefore it is safe to assume that recreational activity is not the common factor in the Ring Ouzel’s demise. This year there a far more pairs prospecting in the equally busy Burbage valley. While it is widely accepted that the Ring Ouzel is a shy bird, recent studies in Scotland have concluded that it is considerably less so than first thought.

Finally, as with conflicts all over the world, consensus is the only real path to peace. Climbers and ornithologists have listened to each other over the past few years and have begun to come to terms with each other. Surely that is preferable to further disagreements?

In reply to all:

Before anyone gets any funny ideas, I got all the clever stuff from Henry.............

In reply to john horscroft:

That Jennings person is getting on my tits, is he incapable of reading that there are agreements in place to protect them? Hmm, Mersyside person, probably not.

In reply to sutty:

Patience, Sutty me old fruit-bat, discourse is the only course..........

In reply to Matthew Croney:

I think people are presuming that birds have a bit more intelligence than they have. There may well be quieter spots nearby but these birds have always nested in this area and will continue to try to. If they breed successfully their offspring will be forced to seek new territories, if they fail to breed they will eventually after several years die of old age never to be seen again. Same with curlews fields used to full of them, so no problem, unfortunatly they were failing to nest and after the 30 years or so that they live they are now dieing out, so no more curlew calls. So these restrictions are great and well done to climbers for respecting them.

In reply to davepembs:

I think Curlews are a different thing Dave, pesticides has killed off a lot of their food.

wonder why we seem to be getting more midges yet the birds that eat them seem to be in decline or at least not proliferating? Could the midges themselves be carrying pesticides that kill off their predators?

In reply to sutty:

With the curlews its two things, one as you say pesticides killing food but more importantly the current way of cutting silage early. The curlews used to have finished nesting by the time hay was cut but now have barely started and once the grass is gone so is their cover hence a failed season. Of course the lack of food also means declining areas for them to breed in.

In reply to davepembs:

I saw more curlews in Pembroke a few weeks ago than ever before. Big flocks of them right over our heads at Caerfai and Porthclais. They seem fairly common around the Roaches area too. Are they on the up again now?

In reply to john horscroft:

I hadn't mentioned Ring Ouzels at Burbage, because I didn't want to stir anything up, but I saw and heard loads of them when I was bouldering on Sunday there on Sun evening.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

They were whimbrels in Pembs on their May migration to Scandanavia, look very similar just a tad smaller and with a stunted call. Lot of them around weren't there. Curlews left here about 2 months ago. By the way i know all this because my bro in law whose an RSPB project officer was down that weekend, I'd thought they were curlews too, was put well right!! He explained about curlews as well as my folks had been asking were they'd gone from the back of their house up in Yorkshire.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Lots of curlews in the Peak too.

In reply to davepembs:

Ahah! That explains it. I have a brother who's an RSPB warden, but obviously I never listen to anything he says.

In reply to john horscroft: What did Henry say about the RSPB study?

In reply to l.jennings:

I'd be interested as well because I contacted the RSPB today and they didn't seem to have a clue what I was talking about.

Latest update:
Blimey, you don't look at the website for a few days and look what happens!

Firstly a big THANK YOU to everyone for obeying the signs at the Trig Point nest site as I'm very pleased to report that the chicks have now fledged successfully. The signs have therefore been taken down a few days earlier than predicted. However, the birds are still feeding in the area, so please remember to keep your dogs on a lead.

Anyway, there are a lot of valid views expressed on this chat page and of course the "truth" lies somewhere in the middle. But from my perspective, I think the current agreements are working pretty well. Ring Ouzels do seem to be able to withstand a certain amount of human presence but the breathing space we give them in order to gain a foothold on the crag to nest helps. They seem better able to withstand linear activity (people moving through an area), allowing the birds to get in and out in between them - as at the Trig Point and Burbage Bridge - but seem to have more difficulty nesting where people stay in one area for long periods of time, such as groups of climbers, boulderers, picnicers, etc. Despite trying very often, they have not yet been able to gain a foothold on the main crag itself this year but they are now at Cowper Stone.

Frankly, the debate about whether they like people or it's just coincidence that their favourite habitat is where people congregate, I suspect will never be proven either way. What matters to most people is that they're still here and we're doing what we reasonably can to ensure this continues.

So thanks again for your help in achieving this.

In reply to Matthew Croney:

Spot on Matthew. And I reckon most of the contributors to this thread whole-heartedly agree with you.