Tying down light belayer.

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 gimmergimmer 09 May 2023

Someone who's done lots of courses told me you shouldn't 'tie down' belayer at bottom or on multi-pitch. I.e. an upward pull. . (Obviously for someone much lighter than the leader. )So that no big force on belayer or strain on anchor. I've always thought you need to stop them shooting up into the air.(Which I've seen). And why have heavy  bags at climbing walls??? Ta

Post edited at 17:36
 steveq 09 May 2023
In reply to gimmergimmer:

You'd be better off using a device like an Edelrid Ohm to deal with the weight difference.

Stephen

8
In reply to gimmergimmer:

You have to judge the situation. An 85kg climber with a 50kg partner could be pretty dangerous without a ground anchor. A lead fall could launch the belayer up into the rock in an extremely dangerous way, and possibly cause the climber to hit the ground. Perhaps there is a ledge right above the stance, or a lot of pointy boulders at the bottom of the route etc. 

On the other hand, if it's not that necessary, having the ability to move back, give soft catches etc is an advantage, and when your weights are similar the pull isn't usually significant. 

The instructor is correct that it puts more strain into the system and gives higher fall factors on everyone, but as with all of climbing, it's not one rule for every situation.

 Martin Hore 09 May 2023
In reply to steveq:

Sounded to me like the OP was talking about trad. I may be wrong, but I don't think you can safely use an Ohm other than on a bolt or an alternative secure multidirectional anchor.

Martin

OP gimmergimmer 09 May 2023
In reply to gimmergimmer:

Yes Trad.

 daWalt 09 May 2023
In reply to gimmergimmer:

Nah, this is BS, and here's why.

A tied-down belayer is not really different than a chonky belayer.

If your belayer gets ripped off their stance in an upward direction, that's probably more likely to upset your anchor than having and additional (separate) upward piece, you only need a single piece of up-gear because a full anchor isn't necessary for this.

If your gear rips, it was shyte gear. If your anchor rips, you wanna get better training. Possibly from someone else.

(me and my partner use ground/up-pull anchors all the time)

 MischaHY 10 May 2023
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

>  An 85kg climber with a 50kg partner could be pretty dangerous without a ground anchor. A lead fall could launch the belayer up into the rock in an extremely dangerous way, and possibly cause the climber to hit the ground. 

I often have 30kg weight difference to climbing partners and it is fine 95% of the time. Very occasionally a situation comes along where a little extra friction is need or it's simply a big runout with minimal gear and then I agree that a ground anchor works fine. People tend to worry about weight difference more than actual belay technique - lighter people need to be aware they'll get pulled around and position themselves appropriately in terms of body/foot position. 

In reply to gimmergimmer:

> Someone who's done lots of courses told me you shouldn't 'tie down' belayer at bottom or on multi-pitch. I.e. an upward pull. . (Obviously for someone much lighter than the leader. )So that no big force on belayer or strain on anchor. I've always thought you need to stop them shooting up into the air.(Which I've seen). And why have heavy  bags at climbing walls??? Ta

There's something up with the courses you're doing!

 stubbed 10 May 2023
In reply to steveq:

I'm interested in this as I've started climbing with my son, who's 11 and pretty slight, and I weigh 60kg. Are there devices that would suit us better (I'm talking about at a climbing wall generally)?

 George_Surf 10 May 2023
In reply to gimmergimmer:

I regularly need to tie rach down. All depends on the route. If it’s runout or the hard bit is close to the floor, you don’t want an ultra soft catch. There’s probably 20kg between us; even with a small fall say feet by the gear (10m up a route) i can still easily go 4m+ people might think no way, slack in the system etc but it’s not the case. I’ll fall 1m+ because of the gear location, 1m on stretch, 1m because the rope straightens up and when it does go tight, rach goes up (2m? Maybe more/less) and I go another 2m down! You need to be realistic. With gear by my feet in the above scenario I fall half the length of the route (I jumped off Brant Direct last week and this happened!). Granted, after 2m of falling the rest is very soft and a fair bit slower but I’m still heading down . A loose ground anchor is what we often use eg and upward pulling cam or a thread with say 2m slack rope between the gear and Rach, like a buffer. Rach can go up, but after 1-2m that rope will come tight and I will stop. We also use a gigajul. Assisted breaking is good for us. I get a soft catch no matter what 

 George_Surf 10 May 2023
In reply to George_Surf:

In my opinion; however far more people think they’re about to fall, they’re probably going to go further. Maybe not with a really heavy belayer but even then people under account for stretch, rope going straight, belayer movement etc 

 ebdon 10 May 2023
In reply to gimmergimmer:

Tell that to my wife who I catapulted over the sea a few weeks ago, loosing one of her expensive climbing shoes to the briney deep in the process after failing to properly tie her down. 

 Howard J 10 May 2023
In reply to stubbed:

> I'm interested in this as I've started climbing with my son, who's 11 and pretty slight, and I weigh 60kg. Are there devices that would suit us better (I'm talking about at a climbing wall generally)?

The Edelrid Ohm, which someone mentioned above. It's not cheap, but deals can be found if you look around, and it certainly does what it says on the tin. The reviews tend to focus on holding falls with it, but it also makes it much easier for a light belayer to lower a heavier climber. 

You might be able to hire one for a session at your local wall to try it out first.

It's designed to be used with bolts, so really only suitable for indoors and sport rather than trad.  

There's a review of it here:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/climbing/belays/edelrid_ohm-9503

 andyb211 10 May 2023
In reply to ebdon:

Ooops!

Guessing she's taking you new rock shoe shopping then!

 CantClimbTom 10 May 2023
In reply to gimmergimmer:

This is a dangerous an unintuitive area

  • Either...   don't tie them down (which can cause obvious problems if there is a big weight difference!)
  • Or..  belay as directly from anchors - or worst case, as tied down really tight so they can't move in any direction
  • Don't just tether them a bit!!  No!!!

The reason is this thought provoking tests and demonstrations shown by ENSA and Petzl. I changed some opinions after watching it. Although the setting is alpinism, much of this is just as relevant for multipitch rock

Some of these tests results are shocking. Try jumping to 1:15 to see what I mean - that's a good demo of how NOT to anchor a second, they'd be so much better off not having been tied down in that scenario

youtube.com/watch?v=eqZQnCGl24A&

Post edited at 12:51
OP gimmergimmer 10 May 2023
In reply to CantClimbTom:

This may be the clue to all this. If you belay directly  e.g. in guide mode with the correct belay device you make the upward pull concerns on belayer redundant. But obviously need a good direct belay. The person giving advice may have been thinking about this. But then the shock loading argument on an upward pulling belay attached to the belayer no longer applies with a direct belay. (I think this is correct).

OP gimmergimmer 10 May 2023
In reply to CantClimbTom:

Great video.

 CantClimbTom 10 May 2023
In reply to gimmergimmer:

Caution, the video is a bit boltscrew centric. Directly belaying the leader from a sling round a spike might not go so well, so anchors that are marginal or poor upwards are also a consideration (and beyond that video)

Post edited at 13:40
 JMAB 10 May 2023
In reply to gimmergimmer:

People have different standards for anchors but personally I prefer anchors that can handle the strain of a fall over those that can't.

3
OP gimmergimmer 10 May 2023
In reply to JMAB:

Wouldn't everybody?


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