Simple Items That Might Save Your Life: Map and Compass

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These days pretty much everyone uses a phone to navigate, but while they offer advantages, gadgets also have limits. The simple map and compass should still form the mainstay of your navigation, says Ben Gibson, Mountain Safety Advisor for Mountaineering Scotland. 

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1
 boatspeed 20 Apr 2023

I'd be wary of using a self-printed map as a backup, unless it's laminated or very well waterproofed. A proper OS/Harvey map might not be great if it gets wet (unless it's one of the waterproof ones) but it should stay legible for long enough to get you off the hill.

4
 Robert Durran 20 Apr 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

"These days pretty much everyone uses a phone to navigate"

Is that really true? 

2
In reply to Robert Durran:

Well I've not asked everyone, but yes I'd bet it is. Even I do, and I am the epitome of a low-fi late adopter...

7
 Lankyman 20 Apr 2023
In reply to boatspeed:

I use a map case (Ortlieb) and my maps stay perfectly dry. I should add I also have maps on my phone but wouldn't rely on it for serious stuff.

 Harry Jarvis 20 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> "These days pretty much everyone uses a phone to navigate"

> Is that really true? 

Mountaineering Scotland undertook a survey recently, and it was indeed the case that a majority of respondents used their phones. Whether that is a representative sample, or whether those respondents use good quality mapping on their phones was not made clear, if I recall correctly.

https://www.mountaineering.scot/safety-and-skills/essential-skills/navigati...

Post edited at 17:49
 flysplat 20 Apr 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Many years ago in response to becoming misplaced in the dark in heavy rain in the Lake District I bought a basic Garmin Etrex GPS.

All I need it for is to supplement my map & compass to occasionally pinpoint my position. Oh the embarrassment if anyone sees me using it.

3
 Robert Durran 20 Apr 2023
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> Mountaineering Scotland undertook a survey recently, and it was indeed the case that a majority of respondents used their phones.

Yes, that I can believe, but a majority is very different from "pretty much everybody". I don't think I am aware of anybody I have personally been on the hills with who uses a phone for navigation (though maybe they just keep them hidden from me to avoid my luddite technophobic scorn!).

1
 Robert Durran 20 Apr 2023
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

> Well I've not asked everyone, but yes I'd bet it is. Even I do, and I am the epitome of a low-fi late adopter...

What does that make me then? The last?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Nearly, I daresay

1
In reply to Robert Durran:

I am with you here. Although I always have phone with me I hardly ever use it to navigate. I always carry a small compass in my pocket (with no base plate), which I may pull out every so often to check my orientation whilst I am walking along. It only takes one or two seconds to do this and I don't stop or alter my pace to do so. I usually have a map in my sack, but don't often have to use it - I like to memorise the main elements of the route I am taking and their orientation before setting out. But most of all I use the sun (when it is out), or the planets and stars at night. So my order of priorities for navigation when out walking is:

1. Sun, stars

2. Compass

3. Phone

4. wind direction

5. growth direction of trees etc

The key with the sun is knowing its azimuth at each hour of the day. If one's knowledge of that is rusty, one can use the halfway between the hour hand of a clock and noon is due south trick Simplest of all is just to remember that the sun advances westwards 15 degrees per hour. e.g. if the time is 3 pm (=1500 hrs), add half (+ 750 = 2250), drop the zero = 225 degrees east of north, i.e., south-west. (One can improve on that by taking an hour off for DST and making minor adjustments for one's position in the time zone). 

5
 MG 20 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran

> What does that make me then? The last?

No. 

 MG 20 Apr 2023

In reply to MG:

Whenever I've been with GPS/phone types, it always seems a huge faff! I am considering a GPS for ski touring where shooting off in random directions and speeds in a glaciated whiteout is common, however.

Post edited at 20:15
 Mal Grey 20 Apr 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

I think many of us now use a phone as part of our nav tool kit, but I'm still very much a paper map person at heart, and always carry one. The phone is useful for that quick glance to confirm location, and saves having a map case out all the time, but planning is always done with the big map. I don't use any "follow an arrow" type app/device, if on the phone, just use the OS map app as a map viewer. If I stop for a break, inevitably I find myself poring over the paper map just out of interest in where I am.

Of course, huge numbers of us use phone apps for car navigation, though I still always have a look to sense check the route first, and anyway, weirdly I want to know about everything I'm passing on route. 

1
 OwenM 20 Apr 2023
In reply to John Stainforth:

> The key with the sun is knowing its azimuth at each hour of the day. If one's knowledge of that is rusty, one can use the halfway between the hour hand of a clock and noon is due south trick Simplest of all is just to remember that the sun advances westwards 15 degrees per hour. e.g. if the time is 3 pm (=1500 hrs), add half (+ 750 = 2250), drop the zero = 225 degrees east of north, i.e., south-west. (One can improve on that by taking an hour off for DST and making minor adjustments for one's position in the time zone). 

What? I've travelled way off the beaten track in Europe, Africa, North and South America. Been going to these places since the seventies. Never have I known or needed to know the sun's azimuth. What on earth do you do with it?

In reply to OwenM:

Use it as a compass to orientate oneself (very easily). I like to know which way I am walking at all times - rather like knowing one's speed all the time whilst driving. 

I've spent a lifetime travelling around the world and have found orientating by sun and stars continually and immensely useful.

 OwenM 20 Apr 2023
In reply to John Stainforth:

Each to their own, I'll just glance at a compass.

 wbo2 20 Apr 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

I'd think the default for most people is their phone, or a device.  Why not?  Map is useful but increasingly a backup

5
 JoshOvki 20 Apr 2023
In reply to wbo2:

My default is phone with OS map on. I'll have a paper map and compass with me too for backup but rarely use it other than practice. 

In reply to OwenM:

> Never have I known or needed to know the sun's azimuth. What on earth do you do with it?

The azimuth is its E-W position. As opposed to its elevation. So, if you know where the sun is, you can work out your direction, by relative means.

Not great in thick cloud, or in the dark...

Frankly, a compass is a lot easier than checking the growth of moss on rocks...

 Hooo 20 Apr 2023
In reply to John Stainforth:

I've got pretty slack with map and compass now I have my phone to hand, but I've always used the sun to navigate if it's visible, and I still do this almost automatically while walking down the street, cycling or driving. If I need a bit more precision I use the watch method.

 MG 21 Apr 2023
In reply to wbo2:

> I'd think the default for most people is their phone, or a device.  Why not?  

For me:

Ease of use (no faffing with on/off, batteries etc)

Visibility of large area not a pokey screen 

Risk of damage to expensive phone in wet/cold/snow 

Aesthetics - I spend enough time looking at phones anyway 

Habit and confidence in using a map

1
 LeeWood 21 Apr 2023
In reply to MG:

> Risk of damage to expensive phone in wet/cold/snow 

Not just - risk of non function after batteries flatten, lack of network signal or complete failure

Tragic story here, admittedly in the most severe weather conditions - of 11 fatalities - skiers following a guide who relied on his cellphone with no backup.

youtube.com/watch?v=6g6pcLChEI8&

 Andy Hardy 21 Apr 2023
In reply to John Stainforth:

Items 4 + 5 on that list seem a bit "hopeful".

 wbo2 21 Apr 2023
In reply to LeeWood: On the other side a few weeks mapping in thick woods on steep hillsides will soon show you the advantage of a phone over a map if you want to know where you are +-10m

1
 ianstevens 21 Apr 2023
In reply to wbo2:

> I'd think the default for most people is their phone, or a device.  Why not?  Map is useful but increasingly a backup

Yup I'd agree heavily with this. I still have a compass and (sometimes) a paper map in the bottom of my bag, but 99.9% of the nav I do that is above and beyond knowing the way is done with a phone* or GNSS unit.

*I think a lot of the issue here is that people conflate "phone" with "google maps". Personally use FATMAP (bunded with Strava these days) which has a bunch of proper mapping for Europe/ROW, including OS maps. 

1
In reply to MG:

> For me:

> Ease of use (no faffing with on/off, batteries etc)

> Visibility of large area not a pokey screen 

> Risk of damage to expensive phone in wet/cold/snow 

> Aesthetics - I spend enough time looking at phones anyway 

> Habit and confidence in using a map

Agree with all of those.

I tend to use a phone for fiddly bits in forests and the like, and often use it on short family walks. But I generally stick with a paper map on the open hill, and only get the phone out if I want a quick and easy pinpoint location. Much prefer navigating the old fashioned way as it makes you more attentive to your surroundings, and you can see a much wider area. And one very good reason for going out is to get away from screens for a bit.

In reply to OwenM:

I too glance at my compass regularly, but use the sun and stars/planets to hold my course in between. I take a bearing on the sun or a star/planet, and then tell myself, for example "keep Betelgeuse at about 10 o'clock relative to my direction of travel for the next twenty minutes".

Post edited at 11:43
In reply to Andy Hardy:

4, using the wind, got me out of trouble once in Scotland when I found myself with the cloud down and inadvertently without a compass. I knew the wind was roughly south-westerly, and I had to walk south, so I made sure that the wind was hitting my right cheek at about 45 degrees. Eventually I hit the road about a mile from the intended point, which showed that my direction had been about 30 degrees out. Presumably this was because the wind was not coming from the southwest, most likely distorted by the topography of the hill. But the important thing about that kind of primitive, emergency navigation is that it keeps one going in a roughly straight line, rather than in circles, and in very roughly the right direction.

 kathrync 21 Apr 2023
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

> Much prefer navigating the old fashioned way as it makes you more attentive to your surroundings, and you can see a much wider area. And one very good reason for going out is to get away from screens for a bit.

This is my primary reason for sticking with a map and compass. I don't have a mapping app on my phone suitable for use in the hills, just Google Maps. I do have the OS Locate app, and I will use that to get a spot-check on my location on occasion, usually if the weather has come in fast on the Cairngorm plateau or similar, but I very much treat that as a backup.

 Brass Nipples 21 Apr 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

In the alps I’ll also use an altimeter watch with map and compass to navigate.  Helped get back from Italy to Switzerland when particularly poor weather descended, and we had to locate a weakness in the ridge to get through.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Over many years I have trained my sense of smell so that I can follow an individual by scent alone, sometimes many weeks after they have passed by. In this way I can complete routes followed by John Stainforth. I thus have no need for a compass, a clear view of the heavens, nor an understanding of moss. Admittedly I am somewhat limited in my route choices. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

> "These days pretty much everyone uses a phone to navigate"

> Is that really true? 

Yes. Daft not to really. It's so much quicker to get a quick update on progress. You don't have to open it out, find the bit you need, fold it back up, pack it back away. Just grab it out of a pocket, check what you need to check, pop it back. I know some people will think this is the work of the devil and not understand what's wrong with the way they've always done it, but this is just better. Use one of the apps recommended in the recurring threads on here though, obviously not just Google maps. Some mapping apps will helpfully show you your bearing and speed while moving without relying on your phone's invariably crap compass.

Paper maps are great for planning before setting out. Obviously I'll be carrying a map and I know how to use it but it doesn't often come out of the bag on the hill. And I've never needed to use a compass; I've always found that if I can see enough to make any use of a map I can see enough to orient it. It's carried purely because I can see why it's daft not to, but it's never used. I get it, I understand why you might need one and what it's for but I have genuinely never been in a situation where I was unable to figure out which way round the map goes. But maybe I just don't go out roaming in featureless Scottish bogs enough. Or maybe I don't go far enough to get so lost that I don't know what I'm looking at. Maybe in a whiteout I'd use it but the only time that's happened to me the map and compass and my phone were all at the bottom of the crag with our bags so it was moot. We knew roughly which way to walk to intersect the railway without intersecting the cliff, and what an approaching train sounds like, so it didn't end badly.

For when things go really wrong I'd rather people I'm with know that there's a grid reference app front and centre on my home screen, I've texted register to 999, and there's a power bank (and cable) in the inside pocket of my bag (usually with the map). I'd back those to solve the big problems much faster but in case they don't there'll be a low tech backup available.

Post edited at 15:43
5
 Harry Jarvis 21 Apr 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> Yes. Daft not to really. It's so much quicker to get a quick update on progress. You don't have to open it out, find the bit you need, fold it back up, pack it back away. Pull it out of a pocket, check what you need to check, pop it back. I know some people will think this is the work of the devil and not understand what's wrong with the way they've always done it, but this is just better.

Using a map can be much more simple than that. I print the section of the map I need for a particular walk, double-sided if necessary, fold into quarters, put in a small plastic bag and put in a pocket. It's then easy to pull out of my pocket for use. I do also carry the full OS map in my rucksack, but it rarely sees the light of day, except when I'm sitting having lunch and want to place the hills I can see around me. 

Or at least that's what I used to do, but now I have a phone with a decent sized screen, it's as easy to pull the phone out of my pocket as it is to pull a map out of my pocket. I do still print the section of map, and carry the whole map. A spare copy of the section of the map with my proposed route is left with my wife in case of emergency. 

1
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

I do this with guidebook pages on complicated routes but that's mostly because these days you can't buy a phone that's not offensively large for climbing with. When I do I sometimes print the approach/descent page on the other side, which has been helpful on occasion.

 LastBoyScout 21 Apr 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

If I'm navigating around town, then I'll probably use either Google Maps or NAVMII apps on my phone.

On the hills, though, I'd prefer a physical map and compass.

I've got the OS maps app on my phone, as most maps you buy from them now have a QR code to download them, which would be a useful backup, but most of mine are too old to have that code and I'm not about to replace them all unless they're knackered.

I also tend to highlight routes I've done/am planning in highlighter, so nice to have an easy record of if I've been somewhere before.

 Lankyman 21 Apr 2023
In reply to John Stainforth:

> I take a bearing on the sun or a star/planet, and then tell myself, for example "keep Betelgeuse at about 10 o'clock relative to my direction of travel for the next twenty minutes".

Are you piloting a spaceship?

 ScraggyGoat 21 Apr 2023
In reply to Lankyman:

> Are you piloting a spaceship?

While under the influence of a pangalaticgargulblaster!

 biggianthead 21 Apr 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

"we all use mapping apps"

Oh no we don't.

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> I print the section of the map I need for a particular walk, double-sided if necessary, fold into quarters, put in a small plastic bag and put in a pocket.

Ditto. A3 double-sided laser printing, z-folded to A6 and protected in a sturdy ziplock bag.

 MG 21 Apr 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

>  Just grab it out of a pocket, check what you need to check, pop it back. 

Hmm. My experience of being with a GPS user is normally closer to 

- Dig around in pack 

-Switch on and wait 

-Discover flat batteries 

-More digging and fiddling

 -Oh, it's in Galapogas grid 

-Wait, almost there

-Ah yes, were are here 

<I knew that 5 min ago...>

12
 Robert Durran 21 Apr 2023
In reply to Hooo:

> I've got pretty slack with map and compass now I have my phone to hand, but I've always used the sun to navigate if it's visible.

I think I've only ever used the sun when driving. Most often to leave a city in roughly the right direction - too tricky to look at a map while driving in built up areas.

 Robert Durran 21 Apr 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Don't all these people who use a phone find it incredibly annoying only being able to see a tiny area of the map at a time? And are they taking bearings off their phone with a compass (or am I missing something?)? 

I just can't imagine why I would want to drop using a proper map and compass.

Anyway I'd still like to bet that the statement "almost everybody uses a phone" is way off the mark.

8
 deepsoup 21 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I think I've only ever used the sun when driving. Most often to leave a city in roughly the right direction - too tricky to look at a map while driving in built up areas.

Yes, frustrating having to do that.  But back on topic, please do tell us more about how GPS devices are useless.

7
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Don't all these people who use a phone find it incredibly annoying only being able to see a tiny area of the map at a time? And are they taking bearings off their phone with a compass (or am I missing something?)? 

There's these little + and - buttons. Their function is similar to standing closer or further from a map. Almost like it's been thought through. And who's 'taking bearings'? You know where you've come from, where you are and where you're going so you just walk that way.

> I just can't imagine why I would want to drop using a proper map and compass.

You don't have to stop but I can't imagine why you wouldn't use the newer, faster, easier thing when available. There's probably even an app that will locate water frames for you to smash up...

2
In reply to MG:

> >  Just grab it out of a pocket, check what you need to check, pop it back. 

> Hmm. My experience of being with a GPS user is normally closer to 

Who keeps their phone turned off in the bag?? Or are you talking about people who have spent hundreds on a stand alone GPS unit? I have no time nor sympathy for those. They're a massive faff. It's phone and paper map for me.

Post edited at 21:28
2
 MG 21 Apr 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Yes, GPS units. 

Phones seem vulnerable to me.

Also Robert's question: don't you want to see more than a screen of map?

6
In reply to MG:

> Yes, GPS units. 

Yeah those don't serve any purpose as far as I can see.

> Phones seem vulnerable to me.

So is a paper map, which is why you have both.

> Also Robert's question: don't you want to see more than a screen of map?

You know you can zoom out, right?

4
 Jamie Hageman 21 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

Robert, I am absolutely totally 100% in agreement with you.

I don't have a smart phone and I never will.  I carry my old nokia brick with me (with a battery that lasts two weeks) to call the police in emergency.

The bottom line is I love paper maps.  I have hundreds and hundreds of them of many parts of the world.  I can learn and connect with a landscape through studying maps, and that includes while out in the hills.  I most certainly don't want a device to tell me where I am - I want the satisfaction of getting it right or wrong through map reading.

I'll be writing an article for UKC/UKH soon about my artwork, and it will explain that a lot of my thinking behind my paintings comes from the study of maps - not just planning at home but while out there.  It is so important to me and my love of mountains.  

My advice is to LEAVE THE PHONE OFF and use a paper map.  The world's gone mad if people are using their phones in the outdoors.  

9
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Don't all these people who use a phone find it incredibly annoying only being able to see a tiny area of the map at a time?

No. Navigation with map and compass only really looks a few hundred metres ahead in each leg. To get a wider view, you just scroll the map around. Pretty much like scanning your eyes over a paper map.

> And are they taking bearings off their phone with a compass

No.

> (or am I missing something?)? 

Yes; that an electronic navigation device can easily measure bearings and distances from current point to some other point; in OruxMaps, if you have GNSS active, and drag the map around, it automatically plots a vector from current location to screen map centre, reporting distance & direction. Easy to transfer bearing to compass. 

3
In reply to Jamie Hageman:

> The world's gone mad if people are using their phones in the outdoors. 

You do you.

I have the entire OSGB mapping on a tiny uSD card, and can zoom around the entire country, without faffing about, selecting a map from a store somewhere, unfolding it, flattening it out, refolding it, finding the next map, etc, etc.

It's like I have 6000+ CDs, but they're all ripped, and stored on a NAS, and I can access them easily from my chair, via one of any number of electronic devices, and play music to any number of end points in the house.

2
In reply to captain paranoia:

> It's like I have 6000+ CDs, but they're all ripped, and stored on a NAS, and I can access them easily from my chair, via one of any number of electronic devices, and play music to any number of end points in the house.

I can't be certain, obviously, but I don't think your analogy there is going to land

In reply to Jamie Hageman:

> The world's gone mad if people are using their phones in the outdoors.  

Yes, it's unthinkable having an accurate location and means to summon help to it. It must be stopped.

How did you decide the point at which the advancement of technology should be halted? I mean, paper is clearly ok. Or are all your maps on wax? You're clearly fine with cartography. Presumably trigonometry is acceptable? Vulcanised rubber? It's that allowed or is it hobnails only? GPS is off limits but you're using the internet, so obviously you haven't just chosen by date and denounced any inventions post some point in time. So help me out, how have you decided what's acceptable?

9
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> I can't be certain, obviously, but I don't think your analogy there is going to land

Why not? It's about difficulty of access to multiple physical artefacts, vs ease of access to, and use of, the electronic equivalent. In particular, addressing the point about having hundreds of paper maps, and enjoying studying them.

Post edited at 22:42
 Robert Durran 21 Apr 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

> Yes, frustrating having to do that.  But back on topic, please do tell us more about how GPS devices are useless.

I didn't say they were useless. Once again you deliberately misrepresent me. Arse.

3
In reply to Lankyman:

> Are you piloting a spaceship?

No, I'm letting Bezos and Musk iron out the wrinkles before I develop my own starship.

 Robert Durran 21 Apr 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> There's these little + and - buttons. Their function is similar to standing closer or further from a map.

But the scale changes and you lose detail. Just like if you stand further from a map you can't see the detail.

> You don't have to stop but I can't imagine why you wouldn't use the newer, faster, easier thing when available.

But is it really?

There seem to be varying opinions here.

> There's probably even an app that will locate water frames for you to smash up...

What's a water frame?

Post edited at 22:49
1
In reply to Thugitty Jugitty:

> Over many years I have trained my sense of smell so that I can follow an individual by scent alone, sometimes many weeks after they have passed by. In this way I can complete routes followed by John Stainforth. I thus have no need for a compass, a clear view of the heavens, nor an understanding of moss. Admittedly I am somewhat limited in my route choices. 

Wow! That's exactly what my old hounds could do! Well done on developing these canine skills, but be aware that that comes at a cost. From now on you may find that you are obsessed with sniffing (or worse) p*ss and sh*t, and sniffing peoples' bums. Which may not be socially acceptable.

2
In reply to Robert Durran:

It's clear from your very naive questions that you have never used one in anger, or understand their capabilities.

I suggest you actually get some experience of using a modern GNSS navigation system before dismissing them as you appear to be.

5
 deepsoup 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Jamie Hageman:

> I most certainly don't want a device to tell me where I am - I want the satisfaction of getting it right or wrong through map reading.

You're carrying a device to call the police/MRT and ask them for help if you get into trouble.  Whether you want to use it for navigation or not, do you not think it would be polite to make that a device that can tell them where you are? 

There'd be absolutely no satisfaction for them in having to conduct a search for you that might otherwise have been unnecessary if your emergency is such that you can't provide them with an accurate grid reference using your trusty map.

 Jamie Hageman 22 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> It's like I have 6000+ CDs, but they're all ripped, and stored on a NAS, and I can access them easily from my chair, via one of any number of electronic devices, and play music to any number of end points in the house.

Ahhh, well I don't do downloads and listen to music from the original source, so we differ there too.  I have to have the cd/vinyl/cassette and put on a physical album.  The joy is in the process - finding a record from a shelf, opening the gatefold, looking at the liner notes, blowing off the dust, finding my 45 turntable adapter, getting everything just right.  I get none of that with digital.  

I would liken it to map use.  It's the physical/analogue over the digital.  It's more immersive and I connect with the landscape/music in a deeper way.

1
 Jamie Hageman 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> Yes, it's unthinkable having an accurate location and means to summon help to it. It must be stopped.

> So help me out, how have you decided what's acceptable?

It's not about ethics!  It's about my enjoyment in the outdoors.  I enjoy using paper maps, and I've explained my reasoning above.

2
 MG 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> So is a paper map, which is why you have both.

Yeah but one costs £10 , the other £500!

> You know you can zoom out, right?

At smaller scale.Seems a loss to me

2
 Jamie Hageman 22 Apr 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

> You're carrying a device to call the police/MRT and ask them for help if you get into trouble.  Whether you want to use it for navigation or not, do you not think it would be polite to make that a device that can tell them where you are? 

Yes I can see that a locator device would be great in an emergency, particularly if I was unconscious.

> There'd be absolutely no satisfaction for them in having to conduct a search for you that might otherwise have been unnecessary if your emergency is such that you can't provide them with an accurate grid reference using your trusty map.

My map reading is good enough to give an accurate grid ref for my location in an emergency, providing I was conscious.

1
 MG 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> How did you decide the point at which the advancement of technology should be halted? I mean, paper is clearly ok. 

Can you not see the aesthetic angle might be a bit arbitrary but still give pleasure? Actually working out where I am and where I want to be from a representation of the landscape is part of the enjoyment for me, and I expect others. If for you it isn't a dot on a small, expensive screen works, then that's fine too.

1
 CantClimbTom 22 Apr 2023
In reply to John Stainforth:

Yes, but no.

I know polaris at night and direction of the sun etc, but since learning that as a young scout I've looked at both for direction on the odd occasion it's been a novelty not any necessity. The times I've had to navigate hard (if that's the right way to describe it) were in conditions when seeing sun or stars wasn't possible.

 felt 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Jamie Hageman:

> I don't have a smart phone and I never will.  I carry my old nokia brick with me (with a battery that lasts two weeks) to call the police in emergency.

Yes, me too, although swap "to call the police in emergency" with "following input from Mrs F and purchase of brick so my kids can call me in an emergency".

In reply to MG:

> Yeah but one costs £10 , the other £500!

I already have a phone. Costs nothing to install a mapping app.

In reply to captain paranoia:

I meant won't know what a NAS is. Possibly hasn't seen a CD.

It's pretty clear there are people here who have used both paper and electronic mapping, and there are people who have only used one and are happy as ever to argue from a position of ignorance.

2
 MG 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

It's the breaking it in snow/rain/falling over I'm thinking of. Maybe not a concern for you.

 MG 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

I think you're mistaking arguing with having a preference.

In reply to MG:

Personal experience is I've dropped a phone zero times and had a map blow out of my hands never to be seen again leaving behind only the corners I was holding on to one time. I understand both of these can happen so I take both. 

 Lankyman 22 Apr 2023
In reply to CantClimbTom:

> Yes, but no.

> I know polaris at night and direction of the sun etc, but since learning that as a young scout I've looked at both for direction on the odd occasion it's been a novelty not any necessity. The times I've had to navigate hard (if that's the right way to describe it) were in conditions when seeing sun or stars wasn't possible.

How do you think birds and fish find their way across staggering gulfs of land and sea? Battling naked, crying joyfully through storm and tempest to locate the one point their ancestors chose to lay an egg. This is the true and only way to navigate. But probably not best done on a busy day on Catbells.

 wbo2 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Lankyman:

> How do you think birds and fish find their way across staggering gulfs of land and sea? Battling naked, crying joyfully through storm and tempest to locate the one point their ancestors chose to lay an egg. This is the true and only way to navigate. But probably not best done on a busy day on Catbells.

I heard they used paper maps , and the direction of mould growth

 deepsoup 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Jamie Hageman:

> Yes I can see that a locator device would be great in an emergency, particularly if I was unconscious.

I think that's moot, because we're talking about phones here and you're unlikely to be calling 999 if you're unconscious.  It might be appropriate on a lonely solo trip to carry a satellite device that lets someone else track you, dunno - but they are expensive and there are other threads about those.

> My map reading is good enough to give an accurate grid ref for my location in an emergency, providing I was conscious.

I'll take your word for that when you're fully conscious, but consciousness is not a binary thing.  You can be conscious but confused.  Hypothermia, blood loss or a bang on the head can all do that.  If you're saying you can give someone an accurate 8 or 10-figure OS grid reference in the dark when you're drunk (and you may have even lost your map), well, ok then.

The only reason I can see to carry a phone for emergencies but go out of your way to make sure it's one that can't give a GPS fix is that you're proud of navigating without a GPS device and you're concerned that you might not be able to resist the temptation to 'cheat' if you had one at the bottom of your bag.  But it doesn't strike me that that would be a problem for you.

I understand the appeal of using 'traditional' techniques and equipment to navigate, climb or whatever, but not so much when it comes to a device that you're carrying specifically for emergencies.  It's like calling an ambulance but telling the paramedic they can't use a pulse oximeter or an ECG, because it's so much more satisfying if they diagnose you with a stethoscope and visual observations only.

4
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> I meant won't know what a NAS is. Possibly hasn't seen a CD

Yes, it seems you were right. Wedded to the ritual of physical artefacts, rather than enjoyment/use of the information they contain.

> there are people who have only used one and are happy as ever to argue from a position of ignorance.

Indeed.

And unable to imagine what electronic mapping might be capable of...

4
 deepsoup 22 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Yes, it seems you were right. Wedded to the ritual of physical artefacts, rather than enjoyment/use of the information they contain.

If people get enjoyment from performing a ritual, what's wrong with that?  We humans are ritual creatures.  It's obvious that many people enjoy music more if they perform a little ritual to prepare to listen to it, how else could you explain vinyl LPs outliving the CD?

> And unable to imagine what electronic mapping might be capable of...

Arguing some technical point from a position of ignorance isn't a failure of imagination, quite the reverse, it's an excess of imagination.  Imagining that you know exactly what you're talking about, and imagining that anything you don't know can't possibly be important.

In reply to deepsoup:

> If people get enjoyment from performing a ritual, what's wrong with that?

Nothing; it's fine; as I said above "you do you". Unless they say other people are wrong not to want to do the same.

I'm perfectly happy for people to use paper map and compass. I still do. I teach DofE groups to do that. I've written my own instruction manual on doing that.

But it's a bit rich when they start complaining about their perceived problems about digital mapping from a position of zero knowledge, experience or imagination.

> Arguing some technical point from a position of ignorance isn't a failure of imagination, quite the reverse, it's an excess of imagination.

No, it's a lack of imagination of being able to see past the imagined problem to the imagined solution. I hope these people don't work in any job requiring innovation.

Post edited at 10:32
1
 deepsoup 22 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

Ah.  In that case I was just quibbling over semantics despite the fact that I basically agree with you completely, soz.  As you were..

 MG 22 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> And unable to imagine what electronic mapping might be capable of...

I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what it's capable of - it's hardly a secret. Some just don't feel they need/want it.

Post edited at 11:39
 Jamie Hageman 22 Apr 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

> The only reason I can see to carry a phone for emergencies but go out of your way to make sure it's one that can't give a GPS fix is that you're proud of navigating without a GPS device

I haven't gone out of my way to use an old phone!  I simply don't want or need a fancy phone.  I am on my second mobile phone since my beloved Nokia 3310 fell to bits a few years ago (two phones over twenty years is good going I think).  I totally refuse to buy a smart phone and I know I'm not alone.  I don't need one!  I don't want one!  That doesn't mean I'm a technophobe.

2
In reply to MG:

> I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what it's capable of

I disagree; the questions from some make it entirely clear they have never used it. Some proudly boast they never have.

If they don't want to use it, that's their preference, and perfectly fine. But they should give up with trying to argue why their method is better, and trying to point out their imagined problems with digital mapping.

6
 Robert Durran 22 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> And unable to imagine what electronic mapping might be capable of...

Ok, I'm imagining that I can download a route somebody else has programmed over some hills which then, in principle, allows me to follow that route without ever looking at anything other than my phone and my feet. I don't whether that it realistic or not and I don't care because I don't want anything remotely approaching that. I want the real connection with the landscape that being skilled at relating a map to the landscape at any scale of unfolding gives me.

I have absolutely loved maps ever since I started to love being in the hills as child and began poring over them. I love being able to build a mental 3-d picture of a whole group of hills from little more than a quick scan of a map that I can then hold with me through the day as I walk. 

I think what some people might be misssing is the wonderful aesthetic some of us find in a map which you can unfold to encompass the world around you, the satisfaction born of experience of truly being able to read it and in the art of navigation.

As for those who would say that those of us who don't have a use for phone navigation simply don't realise how useful it is, well I think that is probably like telling a cyclist they don't know how useful a car is or a sea kayaker how useful a motor boat is; we get it, but we just don't want to use it.

2
 MG 22 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> > I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what it's capable of

> But they should give up with trying to argue why their method is better, and trying to point out their imagined problems with digital mapping

 I've used digital maps and GPS (or been with people using them), and don't see anything inaccurate in the comments. What is it you think is wrong?

Post edited at 13:43
In reply to Robert Durran:

I never download routes. I plan my own. And then I use electronic mapping in almost exactly the same way as I use a paper map. I just use the GNSS to 'thumb the map' for me.

I don't care if you want to stick to paper, or moss, or sheep entrails; that's fine. But I do wish you would stop trying to tell other people why they are wrong, and why the things they use perfectly well don't work, because you have no experience or imagination.

7
In reply to MG:

> What is it you think is wrong?

See my earlier replies addressing the 'problems'.

ICBA with this pointless discussion any further.

You do you, and leave others to do them.

4
 Robert Durran 22 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> I do wish you would stop trying to tell other people why they are wrong, and why the things they use perfectly well don't work.

FFS. I havn't done any either of those.

All I have done done in this thread is question the extent of phone use for navigation and tried to explain why I'm very happy not to use one myself.

2
 deepsoup 22 Apr 2023
In reply to MG:

> I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what it's capable of - it's hardly a secret.

Lots of commenters have a vague idea, but the devil's in the detail innit. 

You said above that a useable GPS device will cost you £500, that it's an enormous amount of faff to use and that you're likely to break a smart phone if you try to use it as a GPS is cold or wet conditions.

My Ulefone Armor 8 cost me just everso slightly over £100, and travels unprotected in a buoyancy aid pocket for sea kayaking.  It has a lanyard/wrist loop so it's quite easy to make sure it's not going to get dropped and it's completely waterproof.  (Which I know, because it's been for a swim in the sea on many, many occasions - my sea kayaking is a tad on the 'adventurous' side.)  I've been using/abusing it for a couple of years now, and other than a few minor scratches on the screen protector it's still in "as new" condition.

Besides its GPS capabilities (which I use with various different apps, depending on what exactly I'm doing at the time), I also use it to obtain online weather forecasts and tidal predictions when it gets a data signal, as an emergency communication device (on the sea I also have a VHF radio and a PLB), and as a pretty decent compact camera.  Oh, and sometimes I use it to pay for parking in P&D car parks.  (edit to add: also sometimes as a sat-nav to find my way to the car park/meeting point while driving in the first place.)

Incidentally, if I need a GPS fix to relay to the emergency services etc., my actual compact camera can also give me an accurate GPS lat/long within a few seconds of turning it on.

Post edited at 14:39
 jezb1 22 Apr 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

I love maps. I love being good at map reading. I love the satisfaction of safely navigating through gnarly terrain in white outs.

I love being able to use the mapping on my phone for speed. I love being able to zoom right in when I’m teaching micro nav stuff so I can really show people clearly what I’m on about. I love being able to follow the arrow when I’ve got other things to worry about.

Phone / GPS devices can die, just not work accurately and maybe take away one’s connection with nature.

Maps can blow away, get soaking wet and disintegrate in exactly the spot on them you need, a compass can flip, get left on the floor at lunch.

I can’t remember a time when I didn’t have both with me in the hills.

 deepsoup 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Jamie Hageman:

> I simply don't want or need a fancy phone.

You said above:

"I am considering a GPS for ski touring where shooting off in random directions and speeds in a glaciated whiteout is common, however."

I think you'd be making a mistake to buy a dedicated GPS receiver for that when an appropriate "fancy phone" will perform very adequately in that situation while simultaneously providing many other functions for much less money and zero weight penalty (because you can leave the 'brick' phone behind).

2
In reply to CantClimbTom:

No to what? I gave a list of options. But to dismiss the use of sun and stars as novelties is absurd. (GPS in phones is actually a novelty in that it's only about twenty years old.) Navigating at night using Polaris once got me across a serious stretch of the Empty Quarter in Arabia at night in a company Landrover that had no navigation system or compass (in the days before GPS). For me, being aware of my direction relative to the sun and the stars, when visible, is absolutely second nature. For example, when I am walking away from the sun I keep an eye on my direction of travel relative to my shadow, almost without thinking about it.

The spirit of the article of the OP seems to have become lost in this thread: which was how to navigate when one does not have an operable GPS system. Without those basic skills, there are many accidents out there waiting to happen.

2
In reply to Robert Durran:

FFS back at you:

> All I have done done in this thread is question the extent of phone use for navigation

Aka telling people they are wrong.

> and tried to explain why I'm very happy not to use one myself

By pointing out the ways in which you imagine these things don't work, without any actual experience of them.

9
 deepsoup 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Ok, I'm imagining that I can download a route somebody else has programmed over some hills which then, in principle, allows me to follow that route without ever looking at anything other than my phone and my feet.

> I don't whether that it realistic or not and I don't care

So by your own admission you're arguing from a position of ignorance: you don't know what you're on about and you don't care.

FWIW it's not realistic, no.  You almost certainly couldn't do that without paying rather more attention to your surroundngs than that, but it would be entirely your choice to make the attempt.  There is nothing about a smart phone or GPS that prevents you from looking at your surroundings.

The only people I know who use a GPS device to follow a pre-planned route that way (to simplify the nav, whilst obviously also being fully aware of their surroundings and having a back-up map & compass in the pack) are ultra-runners.  Their GPS device of choice for that isn't a smart phone, it's a wristwatch.

> I have absolutely loved maps ever since I started to love being in the hills as child and began poring over them.

Me too.  (Except that I came to it a little later in life.)  So what?  You and others on here are advocating using a paper map but never carrying a GPS device, precisely nobody is arguing the reverse.  It's a false dichotomy.

4
 Jamie Hageman 22 Apr 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

> You said above:

> "I am considering a GPS for ski touring where shooting off in random directions and speeds in a glaciated whiteout is common, however."

I didn't say that!

 deepsoup 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Jamie Hageman:

> I didn't say that!

So you didn't.  Sorry, my mistake - I was mixing you up with MG.

Post edited at 15:04
 storm-petrel 22 Apr 2023

Map and compass, and stand-alone GPS for me.

After nearly 40 years of using only map and compass I've finally entered the world of digital navigation and bought a GPS. I have a smart (ish) phone but I hate touch screens (I think I must have "zombie fingers") so it mostly remains switched off in my bag. My GPS is a Garmin 66s which sacrifices screen space for physical buttons which I like a lot.

I have OS maps loaded onto it for all of Wales, Scotland and England at both 1:50000 and 1:25000. I just use the GPS as a scrolling map and compass rather than downloading routes onto it. I'm impressed by how user friendly and incredibly accurate it is, and how long it runs for on a couple of rechargable batteries. If I want a wider view I just refer to my paper map which is already folded to cover the relevant area.

I still practise my map and compass work so when my electrical goodies break I'll still have a back up. I've seen plenty of people faffing around for ages with mobile phones and similarly with people with map and compass. Surely all that's important is that you understand the limitations of whatever combination of stuff you use, you have a back up plan that doesn't involve mountain rescue, and that you practise a lot with all your toys until it becomes second nature.

 Lankyman 22 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> By pointing out the ways in which you imagine these things don't work, without any actual experience of them.

I can imagine how jumping out of a plane sans parachute might end without any actual experience

1
 CantClimbTom 22 Apr 2023
In reply to John Stainforth:

For sure sun and stars are useful skills, in your drive that will have saved your bacon. But I was answering specifically about UK hillwalking not Arabia. In UK I think sun and stars as good to know but unlikely to be an alternative to a compass or GPS for the weather/visibility reasons I mentioned.

I'm definitely not arguing against the article. I'm an oldskool map and compass guy. Usually I'll have a printed and laminated sheet for my planned day and the full map safe inside the rucksack. Compass and plastic whistle in accessible pocket.

 MG 22 Apr 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

> You said above:

> "I am considering a GPS for ski touring where shooting off in random directions and speeds in a glaciated whiteout is common, however."

> I think you'd be making a mistake to buy a dedicated GPS receiver for that when an appropriate "fancy phone" will perform very adequately in that situation while simultaneously providing many other functions for much less money and zero weight penalty (because you can leave the 'brick' phone behind).

I think that was me. My phone won't work well in that situation, in fact it would be dangerous because it clashes with the avalanche transceiver. 

 MG 22 Apr 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

> You said above that a useable GPS device will cost you £500, that it's an enormous amount of faff to use and that you're likely to break a smart phone if you try to use it as a GPS is cold or wet conditions.

No I said a smartphone costs that (or more)!

2
 deepsoup 22 Apr 2023
In reply to MG:

> I think that was me.

It was.  But I was mixing you up with Jamie, who doesn't currently own a smart phone.

> My phone won't work well in that situation, in fact it would be dangerous because it clashes with the avalanche transceiver. 

How so?  Does this mean you can't carry your phone with you while you're using the avalanche transceiver?  (If you download the maps into memory so you're not relying on a data connection, the GPS functions of a phone work perfectly while it's in 'airplane mode' btw.)

In reply to Robert Durran:

> Don't all these people who use a phone find it incredibly annoying only being able to see a tiny area of the map at a time? And are they taking bearings off their phone with a compass (or am I missing something?)? 

Why are many map only people so annoyed by others using a phone and map? It doesn't make you a worse hill walker.

One thing I really like about OS maps on a phone is that I can identify unknown summits and landmarks in the distance that aren't on the particular OS paper map in my pack.

5
In reply to MG:

> No I said a smartphone costs that (or more)!

Or much, much less. Not sure what the median price paid is but I've never paid over £200 for one, and I'd have one anyway so it's a zero cost option to glance at a map on it.

 MG 22 Apr 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

> It was.  But I was mixing you up with Jamie, who doesn't currently own a smart phone.

> How so?  Does this mean you can't carry your phone with you while you're using the avalanche transceiver?  (If you download the maps into memory so you're not relying on a data connection, the GPS functions of a phone work perfectly while it's in 'airplane mode' btw.)

Yes, the signal messes up the transceiver. Possibly aeroplane mode is OK, not sure. Smartphones and gloves and snow don't really mix anyway.

1
 MG 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

It's the risk of breaking it that concerns me, not buying it. I'll have mine with me wrapped in plastic deep in my rucksack.

2
In reply to MG:

I'd never spend so much on a phone that I'm afraid to use it. Seems pointless.

1
 deepsoup 22 Apr 2023
In reply to MG:

> No I said a smartphone costs that [£500] (or more)!

Well you're just plain wrong there.

I carry an Ulefone Armor-8 when I'm out walking/running and paddling.  I originally intended to use it as my actual phone, but it's a bit bigger and heavier than I really want for that so it's ended up with its own PAYG sim and as it turns out I much prefer that - I leave my other phone behind and messages etc. (work related ones especially) can wait there until I return.

It's 'ruggedized' and properly waterproof, and it has a wrist loop/lanyard to prevent dropping it.  (All of which I've tested extensively, as it travels unprotected in a buoyancy aid pocket for sea kayaking and my approach to that tends to be erm.. adventurous, so I frequently capsize/swim.) 

The GPS functionality is excellent, the camera isn't at all bad and it has all the usual smartphone whistles and bells.  After a couple of years use/abuse it's still in "as new" condition apart from a couple of minor scratches on the screen protector and a tiny chip of anodised colour that's been knocked off the aluminium body. 

It's difficult to use while it's actually wet, which is the only advantage I can think of to a dedicated GPS unit with buttons.  I've never tried it in a blizzard, but I've used it in my kayak in heavy rain quite successfully by turning my back to the wind and shielding it with my body a bit.

Currently available to buy new, with no contract etc., for about £100 or so.

Post edited at 17:32
 deepsoup 22 Apr 2023
In reply to MG:

> Possibly aeroplane mode is OK, not sure. Smartphones and gloves and snow don't really mix anyway.

I'd be extremely surprised it it weren't.  But I hadn't considered big gloves (mine is fine with the relatively light ones I use for winter running) - you may well have a very good point there, I don't know.

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> I'd never spend so much on a phone that I'm afraid to use it. Seems pointless.

And I say this having just spent £40 on paper maps that cover not quite all of the places I'm planning on going next month.

 Doghouse 22 Apr 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

There's some folk on this thread who could start an argument in an empty room

 Robert Durran 22 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> FFS back at you:

> > All I have done done in this thread is question the extent of phone use for navigation.

> Aka telling people they are wrong.

FFS. How the hell do you make that equivalence? Quite boggling. 

> By pointing out the ways in which you imagine these things don't work, without any actual experience of them.

FFS. Read your own sentence I was replying to. 

2
 Robert Durran 22 Apr 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

Arse. As usual. I can't be bothered with you on here any more. Go away.

6
 Robert Durran 22 Apr 2023
In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

> Why are many map only people so annoyed by others using a phone and map? 

Are they? I'm not sure any have contributed to this thread. 

6
 Ridge 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Lankyman:

> Are you piloting a spaceship?

Off the shoulder of Orion by the sound of it. Hope it doesn't catch fire.

1
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I can't be bothered with you on here any more. Go away

You could go away yourself, of course. And take your ignorant, nonsensical fantasies about how electronic mapping would make you behave with you.

10
 Skiddly1987 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Doghouse:

> There's some folk on this thread who could start an argument in an empty room 

No there isn’t

Post edited at 20:09
1
 Robert Durran 22 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> > I can't be bothered with you on here any more. Go away

> You could go away yourself, of course. And take your ignorant, nonsensical fantasies about how electronic mapping would make you behave with you.

WTF is your problem? Just subnormal reading and comprehension levels? Some massive sort of insecurity which this discussion touches on? It really is baffling.

And there is no way I am going to submit to a sad, pathetic little wannabe small time keyboard bully like deepsoup. Or to you. Go away both of you.

10
 Rick Graham 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

I have just reread the actual article , quite balanced and sensible. It was just the first sentence of the ukc /ukh intro that baulked with me.

Just back from a week and a half of walking and mountain biking in the Highlands. An interesting mix of meeting folk who were using paper maps or phones. Only the former looked competent in the hills.

4
 J72 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

I think almost everyone would agree with the enjoyment of paper maps (I always plan on paper).  But my phone just had a digital version of that same map, which is more convenient on the hill, for me at least.  And a blue dot that shows me where I am, which is usually unnecessary, but nice to have (especially in winter with no viz) - and when it’s necessary, you’re pretty glad it’s there! 

1
 Ridge 22 Apr 2023
In reply to Skiddly1987:

> > There's some folk on this thread who could start an argument in an empty room 

> No there isn’t

That's contradicting, not arguing 😉 

In reply to Robert Durran:

You're a dogmatic pedant.

I'm a dogmatic pedant.

It's not a happy mix sometimes.

There's no malice on my part, nor insecurity.

Post edited at 22:52
5
 TobyA 23 Apr 2023
In reply to MG:

> I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what it's capable of - it's hardly a secret. Some just don't feel they need/want it.

Surely that's just an anecdote and therefore reveals nothing. ;⁠-⁠)

1
 Robert Durran 23 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> There's no malice on my part, nor insecurity.

Well I'd still like to know how you could conceivably explicitly take my simple questioning of the proportion of people claimed to use a phone for navigation as the same as saying they are wrong to use one. 

 MG 23 Apr 2023
In reply to TobyA:

Dontt you mean deeply insightful research🤨

 Robert Durran 23 Apr 2023
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Just back from a week and a half of walking and mountain biking in the Highlands.

And what an amazing week it's been! Fabulous NW cragging for me☀️🙂

> An interesting mix of meeting folk who were using paper maps or phones. Only the former looked competent in the hills.

The correlation wouldn't surprise me for at least two reasons. Firstly, I expect a fair proportion of those using paper maps are those who were using them before phone navigation existed and have never felt the need or desire to change and so are simply older and more experienced. Secondly, if some of the phone users are relying on a "blue dot" for their position, then they may not be continuously relating features on the ground to those on the map to keep track of their position which is a big part of honing map reading skills.

Post edited at 08:41
 Robert Durran 23 Apr 2023
In reply to J72:

> I think almost everyone would agree with the enjoyment of paper maps (I always plan on paper).  

Funnily enough the only times I've used an OS map on my phone have been when planning and I have looked at the Walkhighlands website. I'm not generally a fan of sources giving prescribed routes in the hills (having grown up using the old SMC district guides which just gave general descriptions of the hills) but sometimes find the information about setting off through farm buildings or new forestry useful. Hence my earlier comment about finding the scrolling and zooming on a screen annoying.

> But my phone just had a digital version of that same map, which is more convenient on the hill, for me at least.  And a blue dot that shows me where I am, which is usually unnecessary, but nice to have (especially in winter with no viz) - and when it’s necessary, you’re pretty glad it’s there! 

I have a personal aesthetic aversion to using GPS in the hills, but I was persuaded by a thread on here last year that it was irresponsible not to be able to guarantee being able to give an accurate position in an emergency, so I downloaded a thing to my phone which just gives a GR. I've only used it a few times out of interest when flogging up a hill in the dark with no other way of judging my height (having lost my altimeter watch when an Arabian fox allegedly stole my shoe which I had put in overnight). I wouldn't pretend that I wouldn't resort to using it in a dangerous situation, but I hope I wouldn't if merely a bit harmlessly lost due to carelessness.

I wouldn't even categorically rule out abandoning my principles and using some phone/GPS navigation in the future. After all, I resisted taking a mobile phone on the hills for a few years after first getting one, but now almost always take it (though I did find it really quite liberating when I lost it at the start of a week alone in the hills a couple of years ago!).

 wintertree 23 Apr 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

I do most of my walking in farmland and the Tesdale/Weardale fells.  Quite different to proper mountain areas.

I find OpenStreetMap really useful - it has various outdoors orientated renders.  It’s often a lot more accurate on some features than the OS, such as grouse moor tracks and foot tracks without PROW status on access land.  Really useful to planning pleasant walks in the access land areas.

It’s also good for showing detailed views of how a PROW threads a farm yard, where on an OS 25k:1 there isn’t the resolution.  I find this comforting when crossing a hill farm on a little used PROW.   The OS 10k:1 street map can also be useful for unpicking fine details.

Google’s Ariel views are great for figuring out just how bad a summit bog is going to be.

The historic collection from the national library of Scotland is brilliant to consult when you’re looking at a jumbled mass of lumps and linear features to understand what used to be there.  The recent environment agency LIDAR 1m dataset and its various views are also really good to look at in-situ to help interpret the geology and archeology you’re looking at.

Digital mapping has transformed how I plan walks and how I interpret the landscape walking through it.  Doesn’t mean I’d rely on it for mountain walks though.

 profitofdoom 23 Apr 2023
In reply to Doghouse:

> There's some folk on this thread who could start an argument in an empty room

That's me. And I would probably lose the argument 

 MG 23 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

>  with no other way of judging my height (having lost my altimeter watch when an Arabian fox allegedly stole my shoe which I had put in overnight). 

if you want a new one, keep an eye on the Brenva glacier. One should pop out at the bottom in due course.

 Robert Durran 23 Apr 2023
In reply to Doghouse:

> There's some folk on this thread who could start an argument in an empty room

I sometimes argue with myself while walking the hills alone. One of me always loses but the other me always has a winning case to unleash when I get back.

 Robert Durran 23 Apr 2023
In reply to MG:

> >  with no other way of judging my height (having lost my altimeter watch when an Arabian fox allegedly stole my shoe which I had put in overnight). 

> if you want a new one, keep an eye on the Brenva glacier. One should pop out at the bottom in due course.

Thanks. I'll keep an eye open. I was shocked to find that a replacement Suunto is now an absurd £600.

 CantClimbTom 23 Apr 2023
In reply to Rick Graham:

> I have just reread the actual article , quite balanced and sensible. It was just the first sentence of the ukc /ukh intro that baulked with me.

"..These days pretty much everyone uses a phone to navigate.."

Absolutely, the article was sensible, but that opening line was click-bait. Until 3 years ago I'd dismiss GPS out of hand but now I use it (OS map app on smartphone as a second source). Only the last time I was hillwalking was with someone who carries a tiny Nokia style phone switched off in drybag in rucksack and only uses paper and compass.

There are plenty of map only people out there, although I suspect those under 40 probably would be rarer. 

Post edited at 09:53
 MG 23 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

Casio do decent ones at about £130. 

Post edited at 09:56
 Doghouse 23 Apr 2023
In reply to Skiddly1987:

> > There's some folk on this thread who could start an argument in an empty room 

> No there isn’t

Hahahaha  I see what you did there!

1
 deepsoup 23 Apr 2023
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Just back from a week and a half of walking and mountain biking in the Highlands. An interesting mix of meeting folk who were using paper maps or phones. Only the former looked competent in the hills.

There is a school of thought that you must wear big boots to venture into the hills.  To someone who believes that, only the people wearing big boots will look competent in the hills.

I dunno.  I mean obviously there is a trope about people blindly following Google Maps off a cliff.  And obviously these days a complete mook is more likely to be staring at their phone rather than staring at a neatly folded OS map in a flappy map case on a string as they might have been a couple of decades back.

But..  Only the former looked competent?  100% correlation?  Nah - whatever else you were seeing, there's a big pinch of confirmation bias in there I reckon.  Please don't take this as a personal dig, that's just how humans are!

2
 deepsoup 23 Apr 2023
In reply to wintertree:

> Digital mapping has transformed how I plan walks and how I interpret the landscape walking through it.  Doesn’t mean I’d rely on it for mountain walks though.

I'd add the Strava Heatmap to your list of sources of info. 

Always in conjunction with other mapping, and only really useful in more populous areas perhaps, but I've picked up some really good tips from seeing where other people have been going, and a few really nice little paths that haven't even made it onto OSM (yet).

 J72 23 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

I concur that losing the phone is indeed liberating (and the next stage up from the berating I get for having it permanently on silent at all times when my wife tries to call me about something…).

I agree on using route planners from existing sources but as you say it can be helpful (particularly identifying which FBs still exist, or whether to head further uphill to cross).  But digital mapping can be used to create your own routes, or indeed just as a digital map.  It always does a rough calculation of distance and ascent which I have to admit is a good lazier option in the house.
 

For me though the the big positive (or for some I suppose, negative) is that it makes the mountains more accessible for people who are not as confident at route finding.  Whilst I’m sure this creates problems - people getting lost, people unprepared, people not having the knowledge to use their paper map or not bringing one - I think it’s great it lowers the bar or entry for people to get out into the fantastic landscape we’ve got.

Ultimately though, so long as we are confident in our chosen medium for navigation, it’s really such an insular debate!  

1
 J72 23 Apr 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

Funnily enough as someone who navigates mostly using my phone, I have the same bias and assume others are less competent at times which is, I am aware, absolutely ridiculous!  

 tehmarks 23 Apr 2023
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

> I tend to use a phone for fiddly bits in forests and the like...generally stick with a paper map on the open hill, and only get the phone out if I want a quick and easy pinpoint location. 

Same - I take a quick look at my phone if I'm trying to find something specific (like the exit from the reindeer enclosure into the forest in the Cairngorms, in the dark...), but generally navigate only by map and compass otherwise. I've found previously that at the time I'm most likely to need to be using aids to navigate, my phone screen will not be guaranteed to be usable (rain). And as you say, it keeps you engaged with your environment.

 freeflyer 23 Apr 2023
In reply to J72:

> my phone just had a digital version of that same map, which is more convenient on the hill

I was out yesterday getting hypothermic in Cornwall despite having all the necessary dry gear in my rucksack. Sigh.

In the rain though, the touchscreen on the phone was virtually unusable, especially using fingers which felt like frozen bananas. I actually would have given money for a map in a plastic bag on a string.

I also spotted a group of young teenagers in full romp gear with waterproof rucksack covers, and a leader with a map on a string. Very impressive.

On the bus back to the car, there was a spaniel who'd left his brain in the sea and was quite shivery, so his owner had dressed him in his long-sleeved T shirt. The ball in his mouth was staying there. Aw.

 Robert Durran 23 Apr 2023
In reply to J72:

> For me though the the big positive (or for some I suppose, negative) is that it makes the mountains more accessible for people who are not as confident at route finding. ...... I think it’s great it lowers the bar or entry for people to get out into the fantastic landscape we’ve got.

Or people could serve their apprenticeship in the entry level places and then go on from there.

Would you say the same about signposting or waymarking (heaven fordbid!), or make a distinction with that sort of stuff?

Cue the accusations of elitism.....

1
 Robert Durran 23 Apr 2023
In reply to freeflyer:

> I was out yesterday getting hypothermic in Cornwall despite having all the necessary dry gear in my rucksack. Sigh.

Thanks. You've just made me feel even better about yesterday's post climb skinny dip at a stunning and deserted north west beach beneath cloudless skies🙂

 tehmarks 23 Apr 2023
In reply to J72:

Some may argue, rightly or wrongly, that short-cutting the process of gaining and consolidating experience, and working up to more challenging environments, is not a good thing. People may be less likely to get lost now, but they're no less likely to come unstuck through lack of experience in many other ways.

 J72 23 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

Absolutely make the distinction there - in my utopian world people would plan their own routes, there would be no paths on the hills, the load of erosion by feet would be spread, the land wouldn’t be managed, private roads cutting through the landscape would be left to turn over to vegetation….. 

But until that day I suppose it’s good to recognise that some of these innovations help others enjoy things I do.

1
In reply to CantClimbTom:

There is a hint on this thread that us old-timers are not up with the latest technology. But this is not always true. Many of us have always embraced the latest gadgets. For example, I am a computerphile and began computer programming over half a century ago. I got my first GPS tracking device (a Garmin) over twenty years ago and have continued to use mobile phones and GPS devices ever since. 


The strange thing though, is that I seem to be going in the opposite direction to most people, and I am using these GPS devices less often in the great outdoors than I used to, although I always have such a device in my pocket or sack, as a back-up. The problem is that these modern gadgets have to compete with the superb gyrocompass I was provided with the day I was born, which has the benefits of being very accurate and requiring no batteries. (It’s not perfect: it’s rate of rotation is slowly down slightly, and it does wobble a bit, but not enough to cause significant problems in a human lifetime.) This superb gyrocompass also comes packed with other goodies and accessories, such as a force field that keeps my feet firmly on the ground, and holds the air I breathe in place, and protects me from cosmic rays. So, in answer to an earlier question, I am a sort of spaceman, but one who requires neither spacesuit nor supplementary oxygen because of the hidden benefits of the device.


One or two people on this thread have dismissed this gyrocompass as a “novelty” (a bit rich for something 4.5 billion years old) and not of much use because it can only be used at night when the skies are clear. But the makers of this device have recognized that shortcoming and have endowed it with another field that causes magnetized objects to point towards the pole of rotation of the gyro. This works at all times of day, even when the cloud is right down. To benefit from that field, all one needs is a very simple mechanical accessory with one moving part; and again, no batteries!


I apologise for waxing lyrical about this device and admit that I am absolutely wedded to it.  We go everywhere together, day and night, and I have every intention of benefitting from this liaison until death us do part. The only times we have had serious rows have been when I have been out climbing and I have argued about the unnecessary strength of the force field pulling me downwards. Sometimes these arguments have led to severe physical struggles, occasionally to the point of me being flung earthwards rather violently! But overall, I love the benefits of this device including its composite navigational aids.
 

6
 freeflyer 23 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

>  yesterday's post climb skinny dip at a stunning and deserted north west beach

Sounds great - I remember a similar but less deserted dip in Crummock Water, with the g/f winding me up about people on the path. Ice in the veins - fantastic.

Yesterday was definitely type 2 fun, though the doggie cheered me up.

 pasbury 24 Apr 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

Using a map, landscape and environmental cues, and learnt navigational techniques is fundamentally better for your brain. The hippocampus and other areas get a good workout, these areas are also used for other visualisations and memory formation.

The crucial thing here is that being told exactly where you are by a device removes the small sense of jeopardy and thus heightened awareness which leads to a load of extraordinary mental processing.

Check the book Wayfinding by Michael Bond https://www.michaelbond.co.uk/

Stave off Alzheimer's disease - use a map!

Post edited at 10:55
 Wainers44 24 Apr 2023
In reply to freeflyer:

> > my phone just had a digital version of that same map, which is more convenient on the hill

> I was out yesterday getting hypothermic in Cornwall despite having all the necessary dry gear in my rucksack. Sigh.

> In the rain though, the touchscreen on the phone was virtually unusable, especially using fingers which felt like frozen bananas. I actually would have given money for a map in a plastic bag on a string.

> I also spotted a group of young teenagers in full romp gear with waterproof rucksack covers, and a leader with a map on a string. Very impressive.

> On the bus back to the car, there was a spaniel who'd left his brain in the sea and was quite shivery, so his owner had dressed him in his long-sleeved T shirt. The ball in his mouth was staying there. Aw.

Umm, gulp, if that was W Cornwall,  then that was me!! And the dog was wearing my midlayer.  I was the one going blue, attached to the other end of the lead!

It was the end of a 24mile coast run, and the only thing I depended on my phone for,  was the bus timetable, and it cruelly let me down. So despite it being only 4 weeks old, I let it fall through my numb fingers and smashed it. That really taught it a lesson.....!! 😂

 StuPoo2 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> As for those who would say that those of us who don't have a use for phone navigation simply don't realise how useful it is, well I think that is probably like telling a cyclist they don't know how useful a car is or a sea kayaker how useful a motor boat is; we get it, but we just don't want to use it.

Only for balance ...

Practically every cyclist I know these days carries a computer of some sort - be that watch, dedicated cycle computer and a phone.  Strava is pervasive.  

As for kayakers ... I would never ever step onto a river without a phone, that includes the ability to pin point our location, and I'd never go any distance offshore without my VHF.  Many sea kayakers will carry an epirb also.

I think there is space for paper maps and electronic devices to co-exist.  I'll be honest ... my paper map and compass has become my backup in the hills - I go to my devices first.   It's just faster and easier ... 

3
 Harry Jarvis 24 Apr 2023
In reply to StuPoo2:

> I think there is space for paper maps and electronic devices to co-exist.  I'll be honest ... my paper map and compass has become my backup in the hills - I go to my devices first.   It's just faster and easier ... 

Yes, this is my approach. I will always carry a map and compass, but they rarely see the light of day. A smartphone in a trouser pocket with OS maps is a great deal more convenient. 

I do sometimes wonder if those opposed to the use of navigation devices have an overly-Calvinist approach. 

2
 felt 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

It's precisely Calvin that's got us into this gadget hell if you follow the Weber line.

For me, Pasbury's "The crucial thing here is that being told exactly where you are by a device removes the small sense of jeopardy and thus heightened awareness which leads to a load of extraordinary mental processing" is the crucial thing, although I guess if "Calvin" stands for "effort" then it's similar to the difference between searching through grubby racks of records to find that elusive LP and simply snaffling it up with a couple of clicks on YouTube or whatever.

1
 Robert Durran 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> A smartphone in a trouser pocket with OS maps is a great deal more convenient. 

Why is that more convenient than a paper map folded to the bit you are using in a map case (or not) down the front of your clothing (which is what I do)?

> I do sometimes wonder if those opposed to the use of navigation devices have an overly-Calvinist approach. 

There is definitely a bit of that. And why not? Though I tend to think of it more as the beauty of simplicity, and, in the case of GPS, self-reliance.

1
 Harry Jarvis 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Why is that more convenient than a paper map folded to the bit you are using in a map case (or not) down the front of your clothing (which is what I do)?

Because the GPS device tells you precisely where you are. 

> There is definitely a bit of that. And why not? Though I tend to think of it more as the beauty of simplicity, and, in the case of GPS, self-reliance.

Nothing wrong with it if that is what you prefer. It does seem rather selective. You seem happy enough with other electronic devices on your expeditions. As far as I can tell, you prefer digital cameras in preference to developing your own film and making your own photographic prints in a darkroom. And after all, there is something magical in working in a darkroom to create your own images. 

1
 pasbury 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

What the hell has it got to do with calvinism? A most depressing theology.

 deepsoup 24 Apr 2023
In reply to StuPoo2:

> As for kayakers ...

Robert's analogy is so ridiculous that your rebuttal is probably redundant.  The sea kayaking equivalent to walkers using a GPS device for navigation is..  using a GPS device for navigation!  (And the walking equivalent of a sea kayaker swapping their kayak for a motor boat would be riding a motorbike instead of walking.)

FWIW navigation-wise, the main difference between my gear for paddling vs walking is that I have an additional compass: a Silva 70P fitted to the kayak, which makes it much easier to paddle on a bearing than using the baseplate compass that lives in a BA pocket.

I wouldn't buy one specially, but because I happen to own a PLB anyway I have sometimes stashed it at the bottom of my rucksack to take with me on a walk when I wasn't expecting to have a usable mobile phone signal much of the time.  It's tiny and it weighs nowt, so why not?

> I think there is space for paper maps and electronic devices to co-exist.

Of course there is.  Nobody on this thread is advocating not carrying a map and compass when it's appropriate to do so.  Personally I often don't take one if I'm running/walking in a v familiar area.  For running in an unfamiliar area, I'll often go to the other extreme and have a home-printed paper OS map in my hand to use with a thumb compass like an orienteer.

On the water I'll always have a printed map/chart and two compasses in an unfamiliar area and mostly, but not exclusively, rely on those for navigation.  A lot of more 'performance' focussed sea paddlers also use a GPS wristwatch the same way fell runners often do.

Post edited at 13:01
 Robert Durran 24 Apr 2023
In reply to StuPoo2:

> Only for balance ...

I don't know whether these comments about bikes and kayaks are meant as directly responding to the bit you quoted, because, if so, they miss my point. I'll assume they are meant to stand alone.

> Practically every cyclist I know these days carries a computer of some sort - be that watch, dedicated cycle computer and a phone.  Strava is pervasive. 

Yes, well, that's cyclists for you. And they wear silly clothing. Odd people.

> As for kayakers ... I would never ever step onto a river without a phone, that includes the ability to pin point our location, and I'd never go any distance offshore without my VHF.  Many sea kayakers will carry an epirb also.

As someone who sea kayaks a bit and would like to get more in to it, I have actually asked myself whether I would stick to my hill-going principle on not using GPS if I started doing more serious stuff. I don't know.

Given that I have already compromised by accepting that the responsible thing is to have a GR thing on my phone for giving my location in an emergency, I'm not necessarily against getting an epirb, given that a lot of my hillwalking is alone and in remote areas often without a phone signal.

4
 TobyA 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

>  A smartphone in a trouser pocket with OS maps is a great deal more convenient. 

Perhaps a sidetrack but on to less contentious ground! I've had a subscription to OS for maybe 3 or 4 years now, the OS app on my phone is the most continually buggy, laggy and generally quite sh*t app I use. Is this just my phone being rubbish (a three year old Moto G8 android that seems to do everything else fine)? Or do the majority of OS subscribers find the app this annoying?

Previous to this I had OS mapping on my phone where you bought "tiles" of mapping you wanted through Amazon. I always bought the 1:50k tiles as they were much cheaper than 1:25k. Obviously you had to plan in advance what you wanted and download it, and couldn't zoom in and out into different scales, but it was so stable and reliable compared to the all singing all dancing OS app now (which actually sings a bit but out of tune and takes 10 minutes to warm up, and crashes when you ask it to dance!).

So I do always take a map and compass into the hills - mainly because I'd feel disrespectful to the ancestor if I didn't, partly because it would feel as weird as going out without my pants on, and increasingly because the bloody app doesn't work! 

I've never had a phone with a compass in it so even if the app is doing what it should, I still use a compass to walk on a bearing. 

1
 Harry Jarvis 24 Apr 2023
In reply to TobyA:

> >  A smartphone in a trouser pocket with OS maps is a great deal more convenient. 

> Perhaps a sidetrack but on to less contentious ground! I've had a subscription to OS for maybe 3 or 4 years now, the OS app on my phone is the most continually buggy, laggy and generally quite sh*t app I use. Is this just my phone being rubbish (a three year old Moto G8 android that seems to do everything else fine)? Or do the majority of OS subscribers find the app this annoying?

I can't comment on the OS app. I use MemoryMap, which has worked without fault on a series of Garmin GPS units and on a number of smartphones. 

 Robert Durran 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> Because the GPS device tells you precisely where you are. 

Sorry, I assumed we were just talking about the actual map. Obviously location is easier with GPS than with map reading, but I love map reading and consider GPS "cheating" (just my personal self-imposition).

> Nothing wrong with it if that is what you prefer. It does seem rather selective. You seem happy enough with other electronic devices on your expeditions.

My self-imposed aesthetic line of self-reliance is to only make use of what I carry on my person and on natural phenomena once on the hill. So any camera is ok. Compass and altimeter relying on the earth's magnetic field and barometric pressure are ok. A multi-billion pound network of satellites is not.

1
 deepsoup 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> I can't comment on the OS app. I use MemoryMap, which has worked without fault on a series of Garmin GPS units and on a number of smartphones. 

I use both side by side, and perhaps I've been lucky but the OS app has always been fine for me. 

(OS app for OS maps, MemoryMap for nautical charts, and Outdoor Active for Irish OS maps.  I'm not fond of Outdoor Active, but it's the only way to access the map tiles that I bought to use with the late lamented ViewRanger.)

"OS Locate", their supposedly stripped down 'just give me my current location' app seems like unnecessary bloatware compared to the excellent free, and tiny, Arthur Embleton 'Grid Ref' app though.

In reply to TobyA:

> Or do the majority of OS subscribers find the app this annoying?

I get free OS app usage through DofE. Yes, it is pretty poor. I don't use it, preferring OruxMaps and an OS tile set. Or Locus.

I use the same tile set to print double-sided A3 map sections, which, as above, I Z-fold to A6 and carry in sturdy ziplock bag. That's a handy size for easy navigation, with a big, flappy strangler case.

Post edited at 13:15
 Robert Durran 24 Apr 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

> Robert's analogy is so ridiculous that your rebuttal is probably redundant.  The sea kayaking equivalent to walkers using a GPS device for navigation is..  using a GPS device for navigation! 

My analogy was that a motorboat is to a sea kayak what a GPS is to map and compass. The motorboat and GPS bypass effort and skill.

2
In reply to Robert Durran:

Or, from a different point of view, relieving you of the drudgery of navigation, freeing you to spend more time engaging in, and exploring your surroundings.

2
 deepsoup 24 Apr 2023
In reply to TobyA:

> I've never had a phone with a compass in it so even if the app is doing what it should, I still use a compass to walk on a bearing. 

My phone has a compass which seems to be pretty accurate, but I wouldn't dream of trying to use it as a compass.  I think it would be very awkward, annoying and unsatisfying compared to using a real one.

 graeme jackson 24 Apr 2023
In reply to UKC/UKH Articles:

I've only read the first 10 or so replies to this but my take (and it's purely personal) is that I would only ever use map and compass to navigate. I'll carry a phone for emergencies (in the full knowledge that I'd probably not get a signal anyway) but it'll stay well hidden in my pack - photos will be taken with an extremely heavy digital SLR. 

Reading GLD73's Wild Crawling post, is there enough mobile coverage for phones to be useful for navigation anyway? (I don't know how they work so that's a genuine question). 

4
 graeme jackson 24 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Or, from a different point of view, relieving you of the drudgery of navigation, freeing you to spend more time engaging in, and exploring your surroundings.

If navigation is a chore then you're doing it wrong. 

1
 Robert Durran 24 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Or, from a different point of view, relieving you of the drudgery of navigation, freeing you to spend more time engaging in, and exploring your surroundings.

If you find that, but I find that my almost continual relating of map to landscape engages me with my surroundings*, and I find that being in a sea kayak engages me intimately with the sea and coast in a way which a motorboat never could.

*Or, sometimes in good visibility, my ability through many years of map reading to visualise the hills in 3-d from the map then more or less not look at it all day, frees me to appreciate my surroundings.

1
 Fat Bumbly2 24 Apr 2023

Phones - too wee, too fiddly but a great back up when available, can look up orienteering maps if there is one on routegadget, or switch to 1:25k if on a 1:50k OS map - or if I have forgotten the right map. Main use for the 'phone - making calls. 

Otherwise its a paper map - usually a copy from MemoryMap etc. with the actual OS product in pack as a backup.  East to fold, get out of pockets, flotation device etc.  Even paddling no probs with keeping the water out.

The worst thing about navigating by phone for me - other than all the fiddling with a recalcitrant touch screen is that GPX files are other peoples routes. I get a lot of satisfaction from planning routes, the creativity is a major part of my enjoyment - even if it does in the end correspond with a Walkhighlands or  SMC red route.  

Post edited at 14:10
1
 Harry Jarvis 24 Apr 2023
In reply to graeme jackson:

> Reading GLD73's Wild Crawling post, is there enough mobile coverage for phones to be useful for navigation anyway? (I don't know how they work so that's a genuine question). 

You don't need mobile phone coverage for the GPS function on smartphones to work. 

In reply to graeme jackson:

> If navigation is a chore then you're doing it wrong

It's an activity I would otherwise not have to do, taking time I could spend enjoying doing other things.

But, as I seem to have to keep repeating, I also navigate with paper map and compass, teach navigation with paper map and compass, have written a manual on instructing navigation with paper map and compass, have peer reviewed a published navigation manual, and was a moderator on the 'Micronavigation Forum' whilst it lasted. So I am familiar with, and competent in navigating with paper map and compass. So much so that I am beyond any sense of achievement of such skills; it's just a tool. I am also familiar with electronic mapping, and with the underlying technology (having developed the Galileo constellation simulator for ESA, amongst other GNSS-related projects).

1
In reply to deepsoup:

> the excellent free, and tiny, Arthur Embleton 'Grid Ref' app though.

Yes, if all you want is a GR, then this tiny app is perfect; does exactly what it says on the tin.

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> You don't need mobile phone coverage for the GPS function on smartphones to work. 

I suppose at least one benefit of this thread is that we are, hopefully, dispelling myths, and increasing knowledge.

 deepsoup 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> As someone who sea kayaks a bit and would like to get more in to it, I have actually asked myself whether I would stick to my hill-going principle on not using GPS if I started doing more serious stuff. I don't know.

You wouldn't need it for navigation, unless you start doing big open crossings where you're out of sight of land for a long time.  You might find it interesting though, particularly to record your 'track' and look back on it later to see how reality compares to the course you had planned.

If you haven't already looked into navigation on tidal water, you should.  Charts and vectors, and scope to ditch the approximations that most people use and make the maths more complicated instead - even if you're never actually going to use it you'd love it.  This book is very good: https://www.pesdapress.com/index.php/product/sea-kayak-navigation/

If you're going to end up buying a PLB (not an EPIRB) within the next couple of years anyway, might as well get one now.  This is the one you want imo: https://www.force4.co.uk/item/Ocean-Signal/RescueME-PLB1/D95  (Jeez though, the price has shot up a bit lately.)

 deepsoup 24 Apr 2023
In reply to graeme jackson:

> If navigation is a chore then you're doing it wrong.

I think that comment was a little tongue in cheek fwiw, and you've slightly missed the irony.  Lots of people in this thread have been claiming that using a GPS device somehow prevents you from "engaging in and exploring your surroundings".

 graeme jackson 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> You don't need mobile phone coverage for the GPS function on smartphones to work. 

Thanks Harry. Something I didn't know but do now.  

Again (and it's something Robert's maybe alluded to), I get a lot of pleasure from opening up a map and identifying far off landmarks; I'd imagine this to be pretty difficult using a phone as, even if the phone can show a much wider area, the graphics and writing would then be tiny. I've tried using Sat nav in the car but only when I'm within a mile or so of the target - the fact the navigation only shows a few hundred yards is something I find very limiting. If I open a road atlas before I go I can get a very good feel for the route - same with paper maps. 

1
 deepsoup 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

>  can look up orienteering maps if there is one on routegadget

Ooh..  OT, but speaking of orienteering..  these Peak District GPS-based mini-mountain-marathon events are fantastic.  (Using a paper map & compass for navigation, and the 'MapRun6' orienteering app on a smartphone to notify you when you get to a control, record the route and upload the results.)

https://explorerevents.co.uk/map-run/
https://www.sientries.co.uk/series.php?series_id=638

 Harry Jarvis 24 Apr 2023
In reply to graeme jackson:

> Thanks Harry. Something I didn't know but do now.  

> Again (and it's something Robert's maybe alluded to), I get a lot of pleasure from opening up a map and identifying far off landmarks; I'd imagine this to be pretty difficult using a phone as, even if the phone can show a much wider area, the graphics and writing would then be tiny.

Which is one reason why I carry a map. One of the great satisfactions is putting the pieces of the jigsaw together - identifying other hills in the distance. 

> I've tried using Sat nav in the car but only when I'm within a mile or so of the target - the fact the navigation only shows a few hundred yards is something I find very limiting. If I open a road atlas before I go I can get a very good feel for the route - same with paper maps. 

Similarly, I will often use a road atlas for the bigger picture planning. There is absolutely no reason why you can't use maps and devices - it is certainly not a question of 'either - or'. 

 TobyA 24 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> I get free OS app usage through DofE. Yes, it is pretty poor. I don't use it, preferring OruxMaps and an OS tile set. Or Locus.

I've heard you mention these before but otherwise no nothing about them. What are they? Are they expensive? Cheap? Work reliably on a middle aged Android phone?

 TobyA 24 Apr 2023
In reply to graeme jackson:

I've not seen a car sat nav that you can't zoom in and out on. 

 graeme jackson 24 Apr 2023
In reply to TobyA:

> I've not seen a car sat nav that you can't zoom in and out on. 

indeed. However, my point was that when you zoom out, the detail becomes so small it's unreadable.  On a paper map you unfold the next bit and it's all still the same size. 

In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

> The worst thing about navigating by phone for me - other than all the fiddling with a recalcitrant touch screen is that GPX files are other peoples routes. 

Then don't use them. No one forces you to use anyone else's routes, whether paper or electronic. It's entirely up to you.

 J72 24 Apr 2023
In reply to graeme jackson:

Depends on what you use - but something like ViewRanger/Outdoor active will give you all scales of map, you can zoom out as far as you want and zoom back in, and at 1:25000 or 1:50000 (or, if you’re ‘pro’ possibly 1:40000 harvey maps too).

1
 Harry Jarvis 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

> The worst thing about navigating by phone for me - other than all the fiddling with a recalcitrant touch screen is that GPX files are other peoples routes. I get a lot of satisfaction from planning routes, the creativity is a major part of my enjoyment - even if it does in the end correspond with a Walkhighlands or  SMC red route.  

If you use a mapping app such as MemoryMap, you don't see anyone else's routes. You can, if you want, create your own routes, but you can use mapping apps without importing GPX files - your own or anyone else's. 

 Robert Durran 24 Apr 2023
In reply to J72:

> Depends on what you use - but something like ViewRanger/Outdoor active will give you all scales of map, you can zoom out as far as you want and zoom back in, and at 1:25000 or 1:50000 (or, if you’re ‘pro’ possibly 1:40000 harvey maps too).

But you can still only see a tiny bit of any given map at a time.

In reply to graeme jackson:

> Again (and it's something Robert's maybe alluded to), I get a lot of pleasure from opening up a map and identifying far off landmarks

Again, I don't think anyone is trying to force you to use electronic mapping, or saying you are wrong to want to do so. All I am trying to do is explain how electronic mapping can be used, in ways that are very similar to paper mapping, but can also be used in more sophisticated ways.

Electronic mapping pans, zooms and scrolls. It can work very like a paper map, which you scan over with your eyes; our foveal vision means we can only ever focus on a small area of the map at a time. Scrolling is no different to turning a page in your road atlas, or selecting a different fold of your OS map. Getting the equivalent of a fully unfolded OS map on a table is harder, I will grant you, but I tend to do that sort of work on a large computer screen. And I have learnt to use a phone screen and scroll about if I need to plan a route on it. It helps me create a memory of the map and relative positions of things, so I can scroll back to some point if I need to.

Stick to paper mapping if you wish, but don't discount electronic mapping based on misconceptions (such as network coverage being required).

I bet it took you a while to be confident using paper maps. It may be worth giving electronic mapping 'a fair go', and figuring out how to make it work for you.

Post edited at 16:47
1
In reply to Robert Durran:

> But you can still only see a tiny bit of any given map at a time.

Your foveal vision system only sees a tiny bit of any given map at a time. The rest is just a blur.

2
 TobyA 24 Apr 2023
In reply to graeme jackson:

>  On a paper map you unfold the next bit and it's all still the same size. 

Although hopefully not whilst you are driving!

In reply to TobyA:

https://www.oruxmaps.com/cs/en/
https://www.locusmap.app/

Orux works on my old Android 6 Moto E2. And even on my older Hudl and Moto Defy. There's a free version, or it's a few quid. Locus provides paid access to OS, IIRC.

It doesn't come with OS mapping, though. I have my own source for that.

 wercat 24 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

>  I hope these people don't work in any job requiring innovation.

Remarkable.  You don't comprehend that the man behind development of GPS prefers paper maps?

You are surely not saying he had nothing to do with innovation?

Post edited at 17:06
 Marek 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> What does that make me then? The last?

Not by a long shot in my experience.

Interestingly (perhaps) the statement on the SMC website says: "87% of people responding said that they have used a phone or GPS for navigating at some point during their walks. Of those, over 40% said that they had experienced a situation where it had stopped working in some way." Emphasis is mine. 

So to make that more clear: 87% have used a mobile or GPS (sic) at least once in the past whilst out walking. I would be one of those 87% since I did try it out a few years back and found it a bit of a pain to use (touch screens, rain, gloves...), so don't bother any more. Yes I still have it if I get properly lost, but fingers crossed, that's hasn't happened in years. A more interesting and relevant statistic would be how many people usually use a GPS device as their primary navigation aid. I suspect the percentage would be far smaller.

I also found the 40% figure quite surprising. Again, it's inflated by being 'at least once' over an indefinite period, but it seems high (unless it's user error). I can't think of a single instance of using Google maps for driving navigation (far more common that walking) when GPS has failed. Perhaps I've been lucky?

 Rick Graham 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Marek:

I have just looked at Google maps to see what it said about the thirlmere West Side road closure. Another  thread.

Keswick to armboth car park had you swimming over the reservoir! 

Most times I find Google maps really good for road journeys to be fair.

Post edited at 17:32
 Marek 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Rick Graham:

> I have just looked at Google maps to see what it said about the thirlmere West Side road closure. Another  thread.

> Keswick to armboth car park had you swimming over the reservoir! 

Good spot (albeit a routing issue rather than a GPS issue)! Perhaps they're encouraging 'active travel'?

 deepsoup 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

> But you can still only see a tiny bit of any given map at a time.

On a small screen, obviously.  And the GPS device some of us use as an aid to navigation might not even be phone, could be a wristwatch. 

But nobody is suggesting that you should use a phone to plan a route.  Nor, I suspect, do most of those of us who do carry a GPS enabled smartphone bother to have a gpx route loaded.  (Just as those setting out to follow a pre-planned route on a paper map don't generally draw a red line on it with a marker pen.)

If you're carrying a 1:50k OS map on paper though, you can use the phone to have a quick look at the 1:25k in your immediate vicinity.  Or to have a look at the OSM/OCM or a nautical chart or something.  It gives you access to information that isn't on the paper map you're carrying.

In reply to wercat:

> You are surely not saying he had nothing to do with innovation?

My comment was addressed at those who seem to give up at the first imagined problem. Clearly that person does not give up at the first imagined problem, but comes up with innovative solutions to real problems.

So, no.

In reply to deepsoup:

> But nobody is suggesting that you should use a phone to plan a route.

I certainly won't say you must. But you most certainly can. Or, at least, I can.

> Nor, I suspect, do most of those of us who do carry a GPS enabled smartphone bother to have a gpx route loaded.

Indeed. I was about to add to my earlier reply to Fat Bumbly to say just that.

But I often sketch out a route, to see how long it is, how much elevation, etc. Then it's on the map, but the only guidance I use is to look at where the route goes; Orux will give voice guidance (I think), just like a car satnav, but I have never used it. I just read the map like normal, and interpret the usual 6Ds. I'm free to wander wherever I like, and am not in any way tied to the GPX route, any more than I am tied to following any other linear feature on the map. The GPX route is merely my own annotation added to the map.

 Fat Bumbly2 24 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

I was referring to the common phone technique - reading a map off a screen is like reading a map off paper, same thing only more fiddly.  I have never felt  forced to follow a route and was describing what choice was best for me.  Choice is a key word here.

 freeflyer 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Wainers44:

Hello I did wonder if you were on here, but obviously the subject unlikely to come up in a short bus conversation. Bonus points for not looking like you'd run 24 miles in the rain as well!

Sorry to hear about the phone - sounds like an expensive lesson.

 J72 24 Apr 2023
In reply to Robert Durran:

This is true but as you scroll you can look around - or zoom out.  Not quite the same as using a paper map, but I have one of those anyway so have the wonder of choice! 

 deepsoup 24 Apr 2023
In reply to captain paranoia:

> I certainly won't say you must. But you most certainly can. Or, at least, I can.

That's quite impressive.  I've tried once or twice but found it v frustrating.  (Most successfully, but still unsuccessfully, using ViewRanger before it became defunct.  I've never tried Orux.)

> Indeed. I was about to add to my earlier reply to Fat Bumbly to say just that.

I think Fat Bumbly is making a category error regarding gpx files.  It's like complaining that the problem with a written route description is that somebody else wrote it - er.. only if you didn't write it yourself.

> But I often sketch out a route, to see how long it is, how much elevation, etc.

Likewise.  I think I probably do much the same as you planning wise, but on a laptop.  Usually on the OS website (as I have a subscription and also use it to print OS maps), but if I'm being geeky and it's unfamiliar territory also looking at OSM, aerial photography and possibly having a nosey at the Strava Heatmap to see where people actually go. 

Often the route is a run, and it's handy being able to so easily calculate and recalculate the distance & elevation gain while tweaking the route.  Sometimes I'll save it as a .gpx file for future reference.

Occasionally I'll save it under 'my routes' on the OS website so I can see it on the app, but usually don't bother.  And like you when I can see it on the app, may or may not decide to actually follow it on the day.

In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

> I have never felt  forced to follow a route and was describing what choice was best for me

Okay. But you must see that your post appeared to suggest there was no choice other than to use other people's GPX files...?

 TobyA 24 Apr 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

> But nobody is suggesting that you should use a phone to plan a route. 

Although when the OS app deigns to work properly I found recently you can! Particularly in National Parks with the snap-to-ROW feature, it works ok.

The only actual reason I was doing this though was because I wanted to download the background mapping for a route, so that I didn't need there to be a mobile signal to see the relevant map. This is biggest annoyance with OS currently because on my phone at least it more often fails to download than not. 

It was the day pictured below actually. I had my paper map at the ready but despite the fact that once I was in cloud, but not on a narrow ridge so needing the compass to orientate myself, quick checks of the phone and compass in hand worked perfectly.


In reply to TobyA:

> Particularly in National Parks with the snap-to-ROW feature, it works ok.

Another feature copied from my colleague's 'WheresThePath' website (from about ten years ago)... They'll be putting mapping next to satellite imagery next...


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