UKH

I had to find some drinking water on Kinder Scout this weekend and all I could find near the top was brown water (even after using my gravity filter). Is this safe to drink? Would a different type of filter have yielded clear water?

Interestingly, I later collected some water much lower down from a small waterfall that was clear. The source was probably the same but I guess the water had been cleaned/aerated from passing over lots of rocks. Would this be safer to drink, even though it is lower down and more prone to human contamination?

Are there better water sources near the Woolpacks on Kinder? The brown water was near the top of Crowden Brook.

Thanks all.

It's just peat, it's good for you (possibly).

The brown discolouration is tanin from the peat. It won't harm you.

Alcohol free whisky!

Various parts of Scotland and its islands, with water from high peat areas, used to have mains brown coloured water that I remember when younger. The intensity of colour coming out of the taps changed throughout the year depending on rain fall, run off, etc, etc.

I have some vague recollection that it was not then worthwhile for the water company to treat it. No idea if that is still the case or not.

Remember a brown bath in an Islay hotel. No problem.

Tannins can be encouraged to drop out of suspension by using a flocculant, such as aluminium sulphate. I recalled a couple of discussions on BPL from ten years ago:

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/61546/

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/72551/

If it's brown, drink it down. If it's green, it's unclean

Water out of the taps at my Gran's house in the Highlands was always brown, bath had little peaty bits floating in it too. 

Main thing I'd be concerned about is if it's moving.

I stayed in Killin for a summer, the water was both brown from peat & hard (ie rich in Calcium) - an odd combination I've never found elsewhere.

The local reservoirs are also a lovely peaty brown from tannins in the water, totally harmless but for some reason Yorkshire Water add chemicals to make it run clear when it comes out of the tap.

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To meet the standard set by the government regulator

https://www.dwi.gov.uk/drinking-water-standards-and-regulations/

I was told that the tannins were thought to be carcinogenic when combined with chlorine which is why they limit them, and also because people complain if the water coming out of the tap is brown 🤔

It isn't just tannins, dissolved organic matter (DOM, the brown stuff) is composed of hundreds and hundreds of different molecules - it's really complex stuff. And yes, when you chlorinate water with high levels of DOM you can create trihalomethanes as disinfectant byproducts, some of which are carcinogenic. These have to be removed by the water companies too (and there are World Health Organisation standards for what is acceptable).

So if it isn't just tannins, is it still ok to drink?

And would you prefer to drink brown water from higher up or clear water from lower down? 

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the responses 

Saves taking tea bags when you're wild camping, just add milk.

Assuming there's no additional unpleasantness in the water (dead sheep, cryptosporidium, etc) the actual dissolved organic matter shouldn't do any harm at all.

Whether to drink high vs low depends I guess. Usually better to drink from flowing water but it depends what other potential sources of contamination there are as you move downhill.

Taste & odour is a big factor in domestic water testing. If it doesn't look right or smell right, irrespective of whether or not it's perfectly safe to drink, the majority of customers won't be happy.

Pleased I can still remember this stuff, it's been years since I was involved in upgrading moorland water treatment works

One of the Objectives of Moors for the Future Project is to improve the quality of the water that flows off the catchment area.

https://www.moorsforthefuture.org.uk/our-work/our-projects/moor-water-sever...

It's really interesting. A lot of the water companies invested in peatland restoration/rewetting/ditch blocking because they thought it would decrease dissolved organic matter and save them time/money at the treatment works. But the evidence base for this isn't very convincing for UK moorland/blanket bogs (though of course there are loads of other positives to come from peatland restoration). And dissolved organic matter has been increasing, i.e. water has been getting browner, for decades now as a side effect of the recovery from acid rain. Question is - will it keep increasing, or will it now start to level off?

I think part of the motivation for combining the two Manchester aqueducts at the Watchgate WTW near Kendal was so they could prioritise using water from Haweswater as it has less tanin and is therefore cheaper to treat than Thirlmere.

Before they were combined, each aqueduct drew from its respective reservoir. But it wasn’t treated back then - treatment only started with the right to roam increasing access to their immediate catchments  

Might from the spruce forests around thirlmere as they increase tanins and water acidity. 

As a side note, it's an amazing set up with the piping heading right under the hills south of haweswater. There are small towers on the hills still that they used for the alignment of the tunnels. 

Yes both aqueducts should be national treasures! All the way to Manchester without pumping. 

Above each there’s a walking route complete with wrought iron gates through every wall. Adopting them as a right of way would seem to me to be the easiest way to get a new long distance National Trail.

Watchgate can put water into the Thirlmere aqueduct, but it can't treat water from Thirlmere as its a few tens of metres above it, without a pumping station!

And the usual state of play is that it doesn't, it just send its water down the Haweswater Aqueduct.

Fun fact, it can also treat water from Windermere, and Ullswater can be used to top up Haweswater (both scenarios are pumped).  These are later additions to the system, to improve ability to meet demand.

Getting back to the question by OP.

We can't tell if waters safe to drink just by looking at it.

Brown water can be safe.  Clear water can be safe.  Either colour of water can also be unsafe.  The world is full of many different kinds of exciting dangers, and we can't see all of them.

The higher likelihood, maybe lower consequence (but also potentially nasty) risk, somewhere like Kinder, is some tummy bugs from other people or animals.  A decent, new filter should be fairly competent at removing.

The lower likelihood, higher consequence things to worry about might be something like a gamekeeper has just dropped a tub of rat poison as he crossed the beck upstream. Your filter will not help with chemical nasties.

Brown indicates that there is something in there other than pure water.  But there is plenty of brown that will not do us harm.  Just like I could see pink water and be certain it is more than just H2O but not know if it is antifreeze or blackcurrant squash.

From the description though, I think I'd be happy taking the chance with either of those sources after putting it through a filter.  It sounds like you were still fairly close to source where the water has had least time to encounter something nasty.

Clearly, nobody can guarantee it though.

Brown water on the Hills ..

Tra la la la la
There's a brown water on the Hills
Tra la la la la la ...

Good point.  Gamekeepers are famously accident prone with rat poison, as you can tell by how much of the wildlife (besides rats) they seem to 'accidentally' kill off.

Thank you Baldrick, will bear it in mind.

Come on, we are in a thread discussing whether water of a given colour is safe to drink.  Did this teach us any lessons about sweeping generalisations?

Just as I try to defy the narrative that Water companies are staffed entirely by supervillains, I hold out hope that there are more than a few gamekeepers that don't deserve the predudice that others have earned.

and there's the Radon

My own strong preference when on Kinder is to take on from the north edge over Black Ashop Moor. It's crisp, angular, with an invigoratingly musky finish and a xanthous hue. I find water on the southern edge rather anaemic and flabby in comparison.

Hope that helps.

They're probably no longer actually employed as gamekeepers, though...

On further reflexion there is one instance in which brown water might indicate caution when taken with other signs, and that's downwater of old mines. For example, the water downstream from Prosperous Mine, an old lead mine in Nidderdale, is dark tea-brown, and the moss growing near it is an acidic bright orange. Doesn't apply to Kinder, of course, but it's always worth having an idea of what's upstream.

Humic and fulvic acids, in part. I spent years ( literally) emptying samplers and bringing down water samples from Kinder area. Before sticking them in a photo spectrometer. It wasn't even for my PhD!

this is one of the reports from the time. Only linking ingredients because I didn't know I was listed as an author ( the very last, most junior name)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ww...