Running and appetite control

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 elliot.baker 09 Mar 2023

Ever since I started a 'proper' running training plan last year my appetite has been insatiable when I run a lot. I've just started another training programme and I'm the same again.

I am overweight - about 93kg at 5'11", and I'm certain losing weight would improve my running performance and general self-image, and worried that being heavier might not be doing my joints any good when running long-distances, but I just eat all the calories I burn off in chocolate and flapjack and ice cream and crap like that.

I've tried reading a book on nutrition for endurance athletes (recommended from on here, it was great and had lots of tips but they just aren't sticking with me). Tried reading tips online... not getting anywhere though.

Am I missing anything terribly obvious? Other than "don't buy crap at the shops in the first place?", "fill up with water" etc. etc.  My will-power is so weak if I didn't have anything in I'd probably just make flapjack or something!

 The New NickB 09 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

I can’t run if I’ve eaten in the last three or four hours, so if I am running at 7pm (I’m a member of a club, so often running with others at a rearranged time) I will have a late lunch and avoid afternoon snacking.

After a run, particularly a hard session, I find that I don’t have much appetite and have to force myself to eat something.

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 Phil1919 09 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

I would try and break the habit of buying anything processed. Cook veg, eat fruit, bread, cereals. Its difficult, especially if you are single. 

 Levy_danny 09 Mar 2023
In reply to Phil1919:

This, also try and eat things that will satiate you for longer and things that don't  spike your blood sugar which then crashes and gets you reaching for the snacks. 

 Neil Williams 09 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

Are you overweight i.e. carrying a lot of fat, or are you just of a more muscular build than BMI can be bothered to take into account?

BMI is misused by being applied to individuals, it was invented for monitoring of populations.  If you're quite muscular, that weight at that height may be absolutely fine.  If you're getting massive food cravings when running regularly (I find the exact opposite!) maybe your body shape is OK?  I find (and I definitely am fat) that I just burn fat in that situation (at the expense of slowing down massively) rather than getting cravings.

Post edited at 16:06
 lowersharpnose 09 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

I am older than most and slower than many.

What works for me is low carb (very low carb,).  I eat lots of meat, eggs & cream, little fruit & vegetables and no bread/rice/chips/pasta etc.  Lost weight, asthma, hayfever and the desire to drink. I run fasted & am not ravenous after a long run. 

 SFrancis 09 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

Are you running because you want to be a runner or running to lose weight? Worth remembering the old cliché that "abs are made in the kitchen not in the gym".

I did a lot of running throughout Covid mainly to gain and maintain fitness and found exactly the same issue. In fact I started putting on weight and eating more regularly. 

I tried a few different things, going semi-keto and I found this really did help reduce the hunger post runs; reducing carb intake but still eating some either as a treat or before exercise. I also made sure the majority of my running was within aerobic zone (loads of info on the internet) which also had an impact. The final thing was filling up on healthy foods, huge amount of vegetables and lean meat. Occasional piece of dark chocolate. I also read that if you suffer with sugar cravings to try L-glutamine powder, but didn't try this.

 And yes, not having the crap in the cupboards to begin with helps, even if you end up making the flapjacks, at least there not so easily accessible and take effort.

Good luck!

In reply to elliot.baker:

A few things that have worked for me:

  • If I have junk food in the house I’ll eat it, so the only way to avoid eating it is to not buy it in the first place.
  • I don’t really want to call it intermittent fasting, but I never eat breakfast. I therefore often run in a fasted state. I find that if I eat breakfast, even something like porridge, I get hungrier sooner.
  • A cheese omelette makes me full for ages.
  • Ice cream is the work of the Devil. A perfect combination of fat and sugar. On the odd occasion that I buy a smallish tub it is with the certain knowledge that I will eat the whole thing in one sitting. I don’t kid myself.
  • I could never have just one pint either, so I ultimately stopped drinking altogether. I think there might be a link between my cravings for alcohol and for sweet stuff. 
 GraB 09 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

+1 for cutting down (ideally cutting out altogether) processed foods. And it sounds like you really need to massively cut down the amount of sugar in your diet. Spiking blood sugars is one of the worst things you can do to put you on the wrong track for over-eating. So you need to cut out all sweet food (chocolate cakes etc are obvious) but also cut down or out a lot of the cheap carbs (white pasta, bagged bread, muesli in the morning, glasses of pure fruit juice). Eat loads of fibre, as this keeps you full for longer and reduces the rate that sugars enter your blood. If you crave the taste of chocolate then make sure its high cocoa type - 85% or higher.

Read "Glucose Revolution".

Post edited at 16:16
 Neil Williams 09 Mar 2023
In reply to Thugitty Jugitty:

If I have cereal I'm starving by 11am.  If I have nothing bar a cup of tea I'm not.  YMMV though.

 GraB 09 Mar 2023
In reply to GraB:

Its not fat that makes you fat, but sugar. Within reason.

Post edited at 16:19
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 Neil Williams 09 Mar 2023
In reply to GraB:

> Its not fat that makes you fat, but sugar. Within reason.

This isn't true.  What makes you fat is consuming more calories than you burn.  The reason Atkins and the likes work (for some) is that if you don't eat carbs/sugars you are more sated on less food.

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 GraB 09 Mar 2023
In reply to Thugitty Jugitty:

A cheese omelette is a much better breakfast than a bowl of porridge. Even plain porridge with no added sugar still has a very high glycemic index. If you have to eat porridge then make sure its made with whole milk (fat reduces the rate of sugar absorption), add peanut butter for similar reasons and make it yourself in a pan from oats (no "oat so simple" type stuff - preferably make it from organic jumbo oats also (I realise organic might not be within everyone's budget though). Oats are one of the  most intensively farmed cereals (very heavy pesticide use in production) and the less finely milled they are the better for sugar absorption.

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 GraB 09 Mar 2023
In reply to Neil Williams:

Not really. That's why I wrote "within reason". Sure, you need to get the calorie balance right, but a high sugar diet will put on fat far far quicker than one which is high in fat. You need to stay away from trans fats and saturated fats, obviously.

An Atkins or Keto diet works not just (or even at all) because they help you feel full or satisfied. There's a lot more to it than that - its really far more to do with the way sugar is absorbed into your system, your body not knowing what the hell to do with it if its not going to be burned off immediately. So it turns it to fat and then stores it in a nice layer around your organs.

Post edited at 16:45
In reply to GraB:

Good point about the porridge and its glycemic index. Truth be told, I don’t really like porridge much anyway so I’d probably need to crumble some tablet onto it to make it more palatable.

OP elliot.baker 09 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

wow loads to go on here. I can't reply to everyone individually but - 

I run because I love being outdoors and particularly in the hills etc., the health benefits are of little concern to me. I'm training to run a 100k route purely out of a desire to run the route.

I don't think I'm overly muscley, I don't lift enough weights so I think it's mostly fat not muscle!

I tried keto last year and gave up after about 2-3 weeks, just didn't fit in with my family life style and found I wasn't losing weight because I was probably still eating too many calories (just basically cutting out sugar).

I do have porridge every day for breakfast and thought it was the healthiest thing ever ... but now questioning that. I have started putting peanut butter in it and definitely found that it filled me up for longer.

A few years ago I went a month by eating zero sugar, for a dry Jan type thing. Anything that said "sugar" on the ingredients I didn't eat. You wouldn't believe how hard it was. No mayo, gravy, stock cubes, bread, chicken from morrisons with seasoning on, weetabix. You name it - everything has sugar in. Perhaps I need to do something similar to reset my blood sugar / taste buds.

Getting the crap out of the cupboards is the bain of my life because I have a wife who both loves variety (of different types of chocolate bars) and has ultimate self-control (unlike me). Where this leaves me is she has about 6 different types of chocolate bar in the fridge at any given time.... and then I eat 6 chocolate bars per day! No joke. The only reason I'm not putting weight on is the running.

 Brass Nipples 09 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

When you say run a lot; how many hours a week in average are we talking?  If you haven’t been progressive in increasing the exercise; it’s no wonder you have the craving.

You have correctly identified that it’s the crap you are eating regularly which is the problem.  

Try and work out what you need during the running, so you don’t get back craving stuff and grab an ice cream etc.   The craving is often linked to low blood sugar.  Ice cream will then spike it, before crashing, and you’ve be craving something else.   During the actual running you want high GI foods as during exercise the working muscles are ready to take it up as fuel and you don’t get blood sugar spikes (assuming you are not diabetic or pre diabetic).  But outside of exercise you want low GI foods, so the blood sugar doesn’t spike.   
 

Good luck.

 GraB 09 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

> A few years ago I went a month by eating zero sugar, for a dry Jan type thing. Anything that said "sugar" on the ingredients I didn't eat. You wouldn't believe how hard it was. No mayo, gravy, stock cubes, bread, chicken from morrisons with seasoning on, weetabix. You name it - everything has sugar in. Perhaps I need to do something similar to reset my blood sugar / taste buds.

You're right about almost every single processed food containing sugar. And this is the number one reason why we have an obesity crisis in the UK (and the US - obviously). And a diabetes epidemic. 

Post edited at 16:52
In reply to elliot.baker:

I’m lucky in that my wife’s taste in chocolate and mine don’t overlap much. I’m not very keen on grown-up dark chocolate so she can keep that in plain sight, but on the odd occasion that she has milk chocolate she hides it.  

 Sam Beaton 09 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

I've lost 2 stone in 2 years, mainly by ditching "bad" carbs as far as possible and switching to "good" carbs. Bye bye shop bought bread, pasta, cous cous, breakfast cereals, hello quinoa, brown rice, home made bread, porridge.

The other thing I did was trying to snack on raw veg and salad whenever possible, but not denying myself the odd bag of crisps or chocolate biscuit.

One of the most intruiging side effects has been this:

When I eat something processed and/or sweet I suddenly find salad and veg and nuts less appealing for a while and I'm more inclined to crave something sweet the next time I'm peckish.

But if I haven't eaten any "bad" carbs for a few days I have no problem resisting crisps and reaching for the carrots instead.

It makes sense to me that my body will crave instantly available energy if it is available, but is happy with slow release carbs and fibre rich veg if it thinks chocolate isn't in easy reach.

I'm pretty active and run, swim, walk or climb almost every day.

OP elliot.baker 09 Mar 2023
In reply to Brass Nipples:

Lets say... 3-5 runs with 1 being "long" 2-3hrs, 1 being medium 1-2 hours and 2-3 being short 0.5-1hr.

I did increase mileage 3 weeks ago but only by adding in the long weekend runs, I've been running 3 times a week regularly for years (apart from when I was training last year and was running 5 times a week).

I will read into GI stuff! I've looked into it briefly but never really taken it in properly.

In reply to elliot.baker:

I like fast food and have no will power and a cupboard full of rubbish as well.

The thing that has helped me get my weight under control is the 5:2 diet.

With other diets you have to use will power, however small the change might be, all day everyday.

With this you use will power twice per week and restrict your calorie intake to 600cals on those days. The other 5 days per week you just carry on as normal, no will power required. If I've got a craving for chips on a fast day I just promise myself them tomorrow. It has been pretty easy and it has worked.

Obviously, you'll be even healthier if you do cut out crisps, chocolate, fast food, etc, all day everyday, but that hasn't worked. At least with the 5:2 you give your digestive system a rest on 2 days per week and you will only be eating about 75% of the calories per week that you eat now.

OP elliot.baker 09 Mar 2023
In reply to cumbria mammoth:

This sounds interesting and I like that you can consider the weekly total rather than daily total calories deficit. When you work out how much running calories you’re burning you’re like - 5000kcal - wow I can eat anything! Then a few flapjacks and second helpings later you’re like why am I putting weight on still 

 Levy_danny 10 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

This is a good podcast that kind of changed the way I look at food although I do think having a good idea of what calories you eat is important when trying to lose weight. 

youtube.com/watch?v=66hWntvp0_4& 

Running is also notoriously bad for losing weight (although I know you're not doing it for those reasons) Lifting weights is much better. 

 HomerTheFat 10 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

I've dropped 40kg over 2 years with running being a big part of it, along with other exercise.

I found that I had to start from a positive personal place, trying to get into a positive state to  get the self control in place. My personal experience was that mental health is needed for self control.

After that I kept a basic log of calories in and out each day, aiming for a deficit over a week. Some days over, some days under, but the trend going the right way. 100cal per mile out...so running was huge to put numbers in the 'calories out' column so I could eat a bit. 

As my weight dropped I found that chocolate and trash had to be replaced as they never filled me up (though they tasted good) but they stuck big numbers in the 'calories in' column for little benefit, but by then I was in the right head-place to do that. I kinda think of them as 'empty calories'.

Now the big one - alcohol - the very empty calorie that leads to more eating. I binned it.

Even now that I've lost the weight, I have to watch out for chocolate, alcohol and junk.

 Levy_danny 10 Mar 2023
In reply to HomerTheFat:

Good effort binning the alcohol definitely gives a little bit more room for higher calorie food. 

 Jon Greengrass 10 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

> Am I missing anything terribly obvious? ....  My will-power is so weak 

Training is not all about the physical, have you tried any mental training?

Losing weight is not as simple as calories in vs calories out. Our bodies are complicated biological systems with all kinds of feedback mechanisms, the only way to find out what works for you is to experiment on yourself.

Here is one of my experiences which may not apply to you at all.

Just over 12yrs ago I stopped taking sugar in my coffee. Within 2 years I'd lost 2 stone and my sweet tooth, because I wasn't stimulating my sweet taste buds every few hours. This approach does require you guessed it will-power. No sweetened drinks between meals was key for me.

 compost 10 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

Do you feel you actually need every single snack and relish every one so you love every second of eating it? Or do you wolf it down because it's there and you're in the habit?

It's like Adrian Chiles's drinking programme: 

Last week, I didn’t drink on Wednesday or Thursday and planned not to do so on Friday. However, Friday came and I met a mate for an early drink. I asked for alcohol-free beer but there wasn’t any. So I had a small bottle of Kronenberg. I really enjoyed it. And then I had another, which I also enjoyed. And then another, which was still nice. But when the fourth one appeared in front of me, I looked at it solemnly, realising that this bottle was the turning point. This bottle was the moment at which I stopped enjoying it and was just drinking for the sake of drinking. I shudder to think how many of the drinks I’ve drunk in my life came after moments like this. Drinking for the sake of drinking. What a waste.

Six months ago, I would have hung around and drunk at least another six bottles. On this occasion, I downed half of that fourth bottle and got the bus home. This is what I believe is known as mindful drinking: drinking only as much as you really enjoy. Now there’s a radical idea.

https://www.theguardian.com/food/2018/sep/09/adrian-chiles-top-10-alcohol-f...

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 mutt 10 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

I understand your joy in running, its a great way to get out into nature and maintain a good metal state. However as a way of loosing weight I'd argue that its highly inefficient. In common with cycling its perfectly easy to get into shape but many many hours of exercise have to go by to burn off the extra calories that your body demands afterwards.  This I think you understand. 

I'm not advocating giving up running. Do try weigth lifting  or dynamic strength training alongside your running. Correctly lifting (get trained if you don't know how) will promote muscle growth through repair. This repair is what eats up the body fat. Your body will not crave anything other than protein and that can easily be provided in a fat and sugar free form. Stick with it for six months and I think you wont have any fat. 3 x 45 mins per week should be enough.

Post edited at 09:51
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OP elliot.baker 10 Mar 2023
In reply to mutt:

I do have a full set of weights in the garage, bench, pull-up/dip station, squat rack etc., dumbells, barbells. I just rarely use them! I've also read "strength training for endurance athletes" - another UKC recommendation! 

It's so easy to read the theory and another thing to get your ass up and go lift weights!

This thread is the pep talk I needed!

OP elliot.baker 10 Mar 2023
In reply to compost:

I definitely don't relish each snack, I would compare to process as closer to hoovering than relishing 🤣

 mutt 10 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

Does your local climbing wall have strength development sessions? I got into weights via that route. Dynamic strength training group sessions and then 'supervised' weight training at a local gym. Its expensive though but now I know how to strength train and have felt the benefits I am able to construct my own training plans and fit them into my routine at the bouldering wall. The young climbers know the benefits of strength training and they are all over the gym equipment.

 The New NickB 10 Mar 2023
In reply to mutt:

> In common with cycling its perfectly easy to get into shape but many many hours of exercise have to go by to burn off the extra calories that your body demands afterwards.  This I think you understand. 

This is complete rubbish.

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 mutt 10 Mar 2023
In reply to The New NickB:

> This is complete rubbish.

in your opinion.

 very roughtly a runner expends 100 calories per mile. A muffin is 750 calories. I don't know how fast you run but I'd say that, if the OP struggles with resisting temptation then its not at all unreasonable to suggest that the first hour and a half of his run is simply burning off the muffin, or what ever else he has eaten after the previous run. 

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 The New NickB 10 Mar 2023
In reply to mutt:

> in your opinion.

>  very roughtly a runner expends 100 calories per mile. A muffin is 750 calories. I don't know how fast you run but I'd say that, if the OP struggles with resisting temptation then its not at all unreasonable to suggest that the first hour and a half of his run is simply burning off the muffin, or what ever else he has eaten after the previous run. 

That is a monster of a muffin and some very slow running. More importantly, the OP is either going to eat the muffin or not eat the muffin, running will have no impact on that decision. Running is simply the most efficient way of burning calories. Obviously not eating the muffin is the preferred option, but if the muffin is going to be eaten, running is the most efficient way of achieving a calorific deficit.

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 mutt 10 Mar 2023
In reply to The New NickB:

Explain then why the OP has not lost any weight. Is he running wrong? 

2
 mutt 10 Mar 2023
In reply to The New NickB:

And as the OP points out it isn't at all a choice whether he eats after a long run. The body takes what it needs. 

Post edited at 15:57
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 The New NickB 10 Mar 2023
In reply to mutt:

> And as the OP points out it isn't at all a choice whether he eats after a long run. The body takes what it needs. 

Of course it is a choice, as any of the changes that you suggest would be a choice.

Running is the most efficient form of exercise to burn calories, the OP enjoys running. Where he is struggling is with other choices. 

Post edited at 16:09
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 Randy 10 Mar 2023
In reply to The New NickB:

>  More importantly, the OP is either going to eat the muffin or not eat the muffin, running will have no impact on that decision. 

I think that is a common misconception. Yes, if you increase your level of activity you burn more calories but that can also increase your appetite. If you run (especially if you run too fast) you burn a lot of carbs and your body wants to replace them with carbs. Then you are craving foods with high carb density, which increases your blood sugar and you crave even more and eat more.

In the end you can not outrun a bad diet, unless you train like a maniac.

@OP: Don't have any idea about your training plan, but maybe you could try to run slower to increase your fat metabolism. I would also recommend trying out to eat a lot of protein after your runs as this is usually more saturateing than food with a high carb density.

 The New NickB 10 Mar 2023
In reply to mutt:

> And as the OP points out it isn't at all a choice whether he eats after a long run. The body takes what it needs. 

From fat reserves if not excessively fuelled another way. Just like with your weight training example.

1
 The New NickB 10 Mar 2023
In reply to Randy:

Our bodies are complex and at times inconsistent, but this isn’t a misconception.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23137828/

 Randy 10 Mar 2023
In reply to The New NickB:

> Our bodies are complex and at times inconsistent, but this isn’t a misconception.

The important quote from the abstrct

> These results confirm that food intake remains unaffected by exercise in the immediate hours after but suggest that exercise may invoke a delay before food is desired.

Everybody is different (and the study looked at a small sample size of 10 people) and personally i did notice an increases appetite after exercise unless i completely wrecked myself. Nevertheless, the study just looked at the immediate energy in-take after the exercise, could not find an increase but suggested that the increased energy in-take will be delayed. In the end, it is quite simple: You body burn a lot of carbs and wants to replenish that, resulting in cravings for OP, which is generally also a good things otherwise you would get malnourished if you run too much . Otherwise, he would not have this problem.

 The New NickB 10 Mar 2023
In reply to Randy:

You might want to look in to RED-S.

 The New NickB 10 Mar 2023
In reply to Randy:

You are misinterpreting this. The delay, relates to food being requested later, not increase in appetite outside of the study period.

 Alex8584 11 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

It's really important to make sure your eating during runs over hour long as this will have a huge impact on your hunger after the run. Also make sure you eat twenty after the end of your run. It might sound counterintuitive but it really does effect your appetite.

 wbo2 11 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker: How fast are you doing these runs and what time of day?  How are you feeling after the longer runs - especially the 2-3 and 1-2?

 The New NickB 11 Mar 2023
In reply to Alex8584:

> It's really important to make sure your eating during runs over hour long as this will have a huge impact on your hunger after the run. Also make sure you eat twenty after the end of your run. It might sound counterintuitive but it really does effect your appetite.

Any evidence to support either of these claims in relation to appetite. There are other reasons to eat something quickly after running, but I’ve never seen impact on appetite given as a reason. Neither tally with my personal experience.

 LeeWood 11 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

Really interesting thread ! You've had loads of good advice, I see. It's not easy when your house partner has a different dietary preferences.

I recommend you stock in alternative snack foods so that you have something to reach for when the stomach tickles. Any item which you eat compulsively is obviously off the list. Identify healthy things which it's hard to eat a lot of.

Suggestions: dried fruit (non candied), raw nuts (unsalted), sunflower and pumpkin seeds, raw fruit, carrot sticks etc

PS. Ask your partner to keep her treats out of sight (wrapped), top shelf, in closed containers etc

 Alex8584 11 Mar 2023
In reply to The New NickB:

I listened to a running podcast a few years ago who interviewed an American doctor doing a PhD in the physiological effects of ultra running. I can't remember the specific details, but as you only have a finite amount of glycogen, which you will continue to deplete after your run eating during your run means that you're less likely to binge on food afterwards. The logic for eating afterwards especially the first 20 minutes is similar. In my experience I eat a lot less after long runs or quality sessions if I take on calories during a run. 

 The New NickB 11 Mar 2023
In reply to Alex8584:

I’m not sure that the psychological effects of ultra running relate much to the physiological effects of hour + runs. Makes sense that you will consume less calories after a run, if you have consumed a load during the run, I’m not convinced it would have much impact on total calorific input, at least not in a good way, if your objective is calorific deficit.

 Alex8584 11 Mar 2023
In reply to The New NickB:

I suppose you're less likely to binge if you're not really hungry? It seems to work for me, although I can pretty much eat what I like and not put weight on.

 ben b 12 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

I reckon that much like your central heating having a thermostat, our bodies have an adipostat. Evolutionary pressures mean we desperately try and hang on to our body fat, and all that exercise puts it at risk. Hence for many of us the strong desire to eat (or even overeat) to counteract all that healthy stuff.

I struggle in a very similar manner - I don't run vast amounts but whenever I increase my running I become ravenously hungry and the desire to snack (ideally on rubbish) is overwhelming. Coupled with Mrs B being an absolutely fabulous cook, I am absolutely delighted when I get my BMI down to 25. 

Good luck!

b

 NorthernGoat 12 Mar 2023
In reply to Alex8584:

There's a big shift towards eating/drinking lots of calories during exercise. Over fuelling is ultras is now being looked at by some elites. 

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Lifestyle/Should_You_Scale_Carb_Intake_Down_on_E... there's loads of info in this series of essays here.

On my run yesterday ~2hours with 1hour at 50k pace (bout 4:15 per km) I consumer a litre of water with 100g sugar. My legs feel decent today, and I'll fuel my 3hour trail run in a similar way today.

 Tom Briggs 12 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

What time of day do you run? Have you tried running before a proper meal e.g. before your normal breakfast or early evening then have your (already prepped) evening meal as soon as you get back. I find this is the best way for me to avoid eating extra snacks. 

Failing that I try and replace sugary snacks with nuts. As Matt Fitzgerald writes in ‘Racing Weight’ “no one ever got fat eating nuts”.

 GDes 12 Mar 2023
In reply to mutt:

Claiming that "lifting weights is better for weight loss than running" is a fairly ludicrous statement though. There are so many possible variables in there, that it can't be useful guidance. I'm sure you've got some source you going to link this to and expand, but I find it very hard to believe that the average punters weights session in a gym is more energy dependent than running for the same amount of time. 

That said, I get what you're saying about running causing over eating. But any kind of weight loss is going to require an element of willpower. Let's say weight training IS a better way of burning calories, I don't think that's the whole picture. Everyone knows that eating Carrots will help you lose weight more than eating flapjack, but people still eat flapjack. 

What probably works best, and I think this is where most folk slip up (see the massive drop off in gym visits in late January early February), is finding an activity or activities you like, and doing them lots. If that's weight training then great. But if going to the gym and doing that is a chore, and you only manage it once or twice a week, but running is a joy and you do it every day, then running  (or walking or cycling or Frisbee throwing) are going to be more effective. 

Get out of breath lots, cut out booze and sugar, and eat lots of veg.

And also toms advice, run before breakfast and have a proper breakfast as soon as you finish. 

Post edited at 10:34
 druss 12 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

Trying ramping up the protein as the first port of call.  Make it the priority, then fats, then carbs.  Protein is a powerful satiety signal and is the most important of the macro nutrients for recovery.  If you aren't getting enough protein your body will more than likely signal to eat until the gap is satisfied.  After a few days to a week you should know if this is a contributing factor and adjust from there.

View fats and carbs as pure energy inputs and don't really help that much with recovery except when you are doing back to back or super long duration efforts.

Post edited at 11:47
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 GDes 12 Mar 2023
In reply to druss:

Is protein the most important macronutrient for recovery from long runs? A certain Mr E Kipchoge of Kenya would argue with you I think. 

 druss 12 Mar 2023
In reply to GDes:

Protein + variety of micro nutrients are essential for repair.  The body either gets it from external sources and/or by breaking down what's available if it's not forthcoming. 

The OP isn't Kipchoge, who in my opinion, hasn't a body composition optimised for long term health, but rather for speed over marathon distance. 

> Is protein the most important macronutrient for recovery from long runs? A certain Mr E Kipchoge of Kenya would argue with you I think. 

 GDes 12 Mar 2023
In reply to druss:

What do you mean by repair exactly? The most important part of recovery from a primarily aerobic effort is glycogen replenishment. Yes you need some protein, but probably not that much, and it's certainly not the most important. Take a wonder round the overnight camp at any mountain marathon, and see how many people are eating steak for dinner. 

I know protein rich diets can be useful in weight loss, and for the op are probably a good plan. But in terms of recovery from distance running, I don't think it's what you need. 

Post edited at 15:50
 Shani 12 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

> I've tried reading a book on nutrition for endurance athletes (recommended from on here, it was great and had lots of tips but they just aren't sticking with me). Tried reading tips online... not getting anywhere though.

> Am I missing anything terribly obvious? Other than "don't buy crap at the shops in the first place?", "fill up with water" etc. etc.  My will-power is so weak if I didn't have anything in I'd probably just make flapjack or somsomething

You are trying to ride two horses here; losing fat and undertaking a 'proper' fitness plan. The two overlap, but losing fat doesn't need a 'proper' running plan and a 'proper' running plan absolutely needs fuelling with proper nutrition.

Losing fat requires a calorie deficit but calorie counting isn't necessarily the best way to reduce calorie intake.

My advice is a Targeted Ketogenic Diet - low carb & higher fat on a rest day, and high carb low fat on a training day (you MUST fuel your training).

Aim for about 2g protein per kg of lean bodymass ,(pilchards, 0% fat cottage cheese, steak, 0% fat greek yogurt, chicken,  tuna, sardines, eggs).

For the rest of your diet, as others have suggested, eat simple foods (rice, potatoes), and plenty of salad and veg (ad libitum, unless it's avocado or similar calorie dense food).

Avoid sugary crap like cereal. Watch fruit portions if eating bananas or pineapple, in particular.

Keep off the scales and judge results by fitting of clothes.

Post edited at 17:06
 GDes 12 Mar 2023
In reply to Shani:

That doesn't sound very ketogenic. I thought the main point of a ketogenic diet is that you adapt to it, which takes time. I'm not sure it's something you can just flip in anf out of? Or are you using the word keto to refer to a general low carb diet, without necessarily adapting your body to work in ketosis? Sorry for the pedant, I think your advice is great. Including the bit about the op aim. Does he want to get better at running or lose weight? 

 Shani 12 Mar 2023
In reply to GDes:

Targeted Ketogenic Diets are a thing! I think you are alluding to the adaption of gloconeogenesis which is necessary on very low carbohydrate diets.

But I could be clearer. Ketosis is a sliding scale and I should probably should give percentages (or an example); if lunch is a large salad with tuna/eggs AND cottage cheese, and the evening meal is used to 'throttle' the carbohydrate intake (such as 3 jacket potatoes on a training day and only one on a rest day), i reckon he'll hit his goal.

A hard ketogenic diet may be a step the OP might want to take, but it might not be necessary to attain his goal and fuel his training. 

Post edited at 17:19
 druss 12 Mar 2023
In reply to GDes:

> What do you mean by repair exactly? The most important part of recovery from a primarily aerobic effort is glycogen replenishment. Yes you need some protein, but probably not that much, and it's certainly not the most important. Take a wonder round the overnight camp at any mountain marathon, and see how many people are eating steak for dinner. 

> I know protein rich diets can be useful in weight loss, and for the op are probably a good plan. But in terms of recovery from distance running, I don't think it's what you need. 

Protein is most definitely the most important macro.  It's a core component of muscle and bone tissue; building blocks for important cellular structures; necessary for enzymatic activity, immunity, cell signalling, and muscle contraction and involved in body tissue repair and growth.

Glycogen stores are fully replenished after 6 - 12 hours through gluconeogenesis or quicker via external source. 

I'm not suggesting steak or whatever during a race which is a point in time event and very much a energy critical event.  During training, or day to day living where you are having weight management issues, then prioritising protein may help stabilise the impulse to eat is excess.  Hunger and overeating is also linked to continual nutrient poor diet.

 GDes 12 Mar 2023
In reply to druss:

> Protein is most definitely the most important macro.  It's a core component of muscle and bone tissue; building blocks for important cellular structures; necessary for enzymatic activity, immunity, cell signalling, and muscle contraction and involved in body tissue repair and growth.

Thanks for the mansplain. 

> Glycogen stores are fully replenished after 6 - 12 hours through gluconeogenesis or quicker via external source. 

Well yes, but external source is surely more effective. 

> I'm not suggesting steak or whatever during a race which is a point in time event and very much a energy critical event.  During training, or day to day living where you are having weight management issues, then prioritising protein may help stabilise the impulse to eat is excess.  Hunger and overeating is also linked to continual nutrient poor diet.

But again you seem to be confusing 2 things. I don't doubt a high protein diet is better for losing weight, but I still doubt it is THE most important thing to eat when you are doing a lot of distance running. 

1
 GDes 12 Mar 2023
In reply to Shani:

Interesting. I always thought that because the adaptations to mainly being in ketosis took a while, you needed to keep it up otherwise you would switch back to regular respiration of glucose. I stand corrected. 

I'm not saying this to doubt you in anyway, but do you have a source for that? 

 druss 12 Mar 2023
In reply to GDes:

> Thanks for the mansplain. 

No problem clarifying.  

> Well yes, but external source is surely more effective. 

It depends.  If you need them replenished quickly then take an external source like in a long race.  If it's not a race and you're in a typical training cyclen then this could be less of an issue.  Just go by feel after prioritising protein.

> But again you seem to be confusing 2 things. I don't doubt a high protein diet is better for losing weight, but I still doubt it is THE most important thing to eat when you are doing a lot of distance running. 

I'm not confusing things.  Prioritised protein doesn't make you lose weight directly, but it may tamper down the hunger signal to eat more than needed because nutrients are lacking - nutrients which fats and carbs (starchy) don't provide.  That was the OP question I was answering.  Prioritise protein (as percentage of daily calories) and then see if the appetite is still as strong after several hours and post-exercise where OP has the hunger surge. 

Shani made excellent point but I would hold back a bit on the fat as it may not be a good satiety signaler.  It differs between people but protein seems to work for more people than higher fat.  Try,  monitor, adjust. 

Post edited at 21:28
 Shani 12 Mar 2023
In reply to GDes:

> I'm not saying this to doubt you in anyway, but do you have a source for that? 

Feel free to doubt me. The diet wars are eternal and you should never take dietary advice of strangers on the Internet. 😁

Ketones are almost always present in the blood and can be significantly upregulated by fasting and exercise as well as lowering of CHO - so it might not be right for me to say 'in ketosis' because that might be defined by a particular threshold.

It's well over a decade since I've read up on ketogenic diets but I think the stuff above was in The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle McDonald.

Post edited at 21:37
OP elliot.baker 13 Mar 2023
In reply to wbo2:

thanks, loads of comments here to go through - what I tend to do the long-runs at about 5:30 in the morning before breakfast, and used to have SiS gels but I ran out so I've got a pack of figs at the moment I'm eating on the 2hr+ runs. 

Just to be clear - I'm not running to lose weight, I'm only running because I like running, regardless of whether I lose weight I'm sure it has other benefits. Then a completely separate issue - I want to lose weight.

I watched that Diary of a CEO interview with the Zoe / Gut health professor, was really interesting. It think I'm going to experiment with different types of breakfast and lunch to see if I can lower this blood sugar spikes he talks about (without paying £300 for one of their tests!), 

I'll see if I can replace chocolate and biscuits with nuts, fruit and carrots!

In reply to elliot.baker:

Hi Elliot

The Born 2 Run 2 book, which came out before Christmas, has a section on nutrition. Very similar to some of the comments here, it covers high fat, low carb fuelling and an approach if you want to pursue this (including foods to eat, and those to avoid). Basically a 2 week detox and then gradually including carbs again if able. You might also be interesting in the maf method (the approach used in the book), and the extramilest podcast which focuses on low heart rate training and low carb nutrition.

Just some ideas. Personally I enjoyed the book and found it an easy/fun read. Also covers running technique and strength work if you're worried about your knees.

Hope it helps!!

In reply to elliot.baker:

> thanks, loads of comments here to go through - what I tend to do the long-runs at about 5:30 in the morning before breakfast, and used to have SiS gels but I ran out so I've got a pack of cigs at the moment

Fixed your typo. 

 The New NickB 15 Mar 2023
In reply to elliot.baker:

It’s worth noting that Bartlett is a significant investor in the Zoe diet platform and has previously got in trouble with the ASA with regard to some underhand advertising for Huel (meal replacement product).


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