Chamonix Guide with AALA License

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 TomTelford 18 Jan 2023

I am looking to organise a trip next year for a handful of Sixth Form students to climb a 4000m peak, ideally around Chamonix. I am struggling to find a BMG who also has an AALA license.

Does anyone know of anybody?

Kind regards,

Tom

Post edited at 13:43
 Alex Riley 18 Jan 2023
In reply to TomTelford:

You might struggle with that as aala is part of UK HSE, not an international award. If it's needed to tick boxes you'll need to find a UK provider with AALA that also operates in the Alps.

Glenmore Lodge run summer alpine stuff (PYB used to but don't seem to anymore but also might be worth trying). They are probably your best bet, for most other providers it's not worth the faff and expense to get licensed.

It might also be worth sending Calum Muskett a message, I know he's been involved in running youth alpine courses previously.

Post edited at 14:53
In reply to TomTelford:

Its not valid for overseas stuff and shouldn't be needed, I work with quite a few UK schools and as I am based in France don't have one and can't get one. It just not a requirement for school trips overseas.

All I do for the UK schools I work with is send risk assessments, copy of qualifications (Carte pro and permission to work in France is needed if going to France) and insurance, for myself or the guides I use.

If your LEA advisor or someone in the school is telling you you do then that's a pain and also not true. As Alex said you could look at AALA holder and see if they would do a course by subcontracting a guide, but you would be paying for something you don't need and isn't covered by AALA. Most of AALA is policy and procedures and they wont have it in places for alpine 4000m routes and they won't need to do it as its not under AALA, so you would just be paying them to have them pay a guide when you can pay the guide direct

Again as Alex said Calum is very good, he has worked with me and some of my schools groups. I would also recommend Martin Chester as well. 

Good luck with getting the trip sorted, sounds great for the kids. If I can help with info on what the schools I work with do about paper work and visa forms etc let me know.

Cheers

OP TomTelford 19 Jan 2023
In reply to ecrinscollective:

Thanks for the detailed response, that is very useful. I am the advisor, but couldn't find a definitive answer anywhere. Not needing an AALA license gives me far more options, and I will contact Calum to propose a trip - could you DM me a contact email?

A final qeustion I have struggled to find an answer to...

I am an MCI and regualrly run climbing trips around the UK with the students at the school, but I would like to take them for a sport climbing trip into Europe (France/Italy/Spain). I am aware that unlike the IML, there is no international equivalent for climbing apart from the BMG, which I would require to take paying clients into Europe. However, how does this work for students at a school I work at? Would they be deemed as 'paying clients' or I am permitted to run a climbing trip in Europe without an international qualfication?

N.B This is an independent school, which is able to risk access and sign off it's trips.

In reply to TomTelford:

> A final qeustion I have struggled to find an answer to...

> I am an MCI and regualrly run climbing trips around the UK with the students at the school, but I would like to take them for a sport climbing trip into Europe (France/Italy/Spain). I am aware that unlike the IML, there is no international equivalent for climbing apart from the BMG, which I would require to take paying clients into Europe. However, how does this work for students at a school I work at? Would they be deemed as 'paying clients' or I am permitted to run a climbing trip in Europe without an international qualfication?

I don’t know the exact answer, but your answer depends on whether climbing/mountaineering instruction is regulated in the country you are visiting. For example to take people climbing in France you need to be either a Monitor or a Guide, whereas (I think) in Spain climbing/mountaineering is unregulated, like in the UK. I guess is also depends on what your insurer thinks. And post Brexit do you have the right to work in the particular country! A veritable minefield!
 

The AMI Facebook page might be a better place to ask this question. 

In reply to TomTelford:

I will send you Calum's contact

as for this.

> I am an MCI and regualrly run climbing trips around the UK with the students at the school, but I would like to take them for a sport climbing trip into Europe (France/Italy/Spain). I am aware that unlike the IML, there is no international equivalent for climbing apart from the BMG, which I would require to take paying clients into Europe. However, how does this work for students at a school I work at? Would they be deemed as 'paying clients' or I am permitted to run a climbing trip in Europe without an international qualfication?

> N.B This is an independent school, which is able to risk access and sign off it's trips.

It's a bit of a grey area, so sorry another long reply.

As Tom said each country has it's own laws on who can teach what. France, Italy and Spain, all have laws governing who can teach climbing. France you need a carte pro. Italy doesn't have an official rock climbing instructor yet (they are making one) so you need to be a guide, but it is a protected industry. Spain has a legal requirement but it changes by region and they seam to be not that strict on enforcing it. Now of course all that is for teaching climbing for reward.

It could be argued that teachers are paid for teaching and not really for the odd activity that they run, so don't come under this, but its grey. If you have outdoors in your role at the school then you are being paid (rewarded) to teach outdoor activities? Some school have instructors that do this role who aren't actually teachers. The other issue is if schools brings freelancers out with them, as they are not teachers and only being paid for that role so, They should come under the local laws.

Are the kids paying clients again is tough, the parents are paying for a rock climbing trip of which you are going to be the instructor. So. in one way there expectations are yes they are paying for course and they are expecting instruction. But your wage is for your role at the school not getting paid direct for this course? As you can see it can be argued both ways.

Now in France ( I guess it's the same for Italy and Spain but not 100% sure ) there is some lea way for teacher to take their students out for activities. The same way in the UK schools don't need a AALA licence. But there is nothing official (that I have seen) that extends this to overseas teachers and schools. 

As you can see it has the potential to be a bit of a mine field. I am sure like many thing in life its all good until something goes wrong and then people could start pointing fingers, and poking in to the issues above. 

My advice would be. To make this kind of course viable, you normally need at lease two teacher on the trip, so in turn between 10 and 16 students. So you would need at least another instructor especially is supervising leading. So use some who is locally qualified, you can still teach and coach the kids along side the local instructor. Unless you have a team of teachers that also hold MCI you would have to bring someone in any way. The bonus is there is no grey area if a licence inspector turns up or there an accident. Also they probably know the area, routes etc a lot better to get the most out the trip. and of course massively important where to get the best ice cream. 

Again sorry it's not a straight forward reply. I am happy to chat further about this if you want to go in a bit more depth, probably better via DM

Cheers Rob

Post edited at 10:50
OP TomTelford 19 Jan 2023
In reply to ecrinscollective:

> Are the kids paying clients again is tough, the parents are paying for a rock climbing trip of which you are going to be the instructor. So. in one way there expectations are yes they are paying for course and they are expecting instruction. But your wage is for your role at the school not getting paid direct for this course? As you can see it can be argued both ways.

> Now in France ( I guess it's the same for Italy and Spain but not 100% sure ) there is some lea way for teacher to take their students out for activities. The same way in the UK schools don't need a AALA licence. But there is nothing official (that I have seen) that extends this to overseas teachers and schools. 

Thanks both for the responses, it's much appreciated. The point above seems to be the crux of the issue. It is whether you view that the teacher is being paid by the school, and therefore not being paid directly by the students. Or whether by the parents paying their school fees they are indirectly paying for climbing tuition. 

As you correctly mentioned, everything is fine until something goes wrong! I can see the apprehension, as a day of top roping at a crag in Chamonix may seem harmless, but if schools were seen as an exemption from typical qualifications then as long as they were willing to sign off a risk assessment, there would be nothing stopping them taking students on Mont Blanc.

Post edited at 11:43

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