Dartmoor wild camping

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 Rob McKenzie 09 Dec 2022

Reposted - Are you a weekend_hiker Do your part and help save wild camping on
Dartmoor before it's too late 4 #SaveDartmoor
Dartmoor is the only place in England and Wales where it is
legal to wild camp in designated areas, without a landowner's
permission. The bylaws on Dartmoor allow responsible wild
camping and are defended by the Dartmoor National Park
Authority.
All land on Dartmoor is owned privately and one of the
landowners (who owns 2,784 acres of Dartmoor) is funding an
impending high court case in the hope that this bylaw will be
overturned. Other landowners are backing this and, if the
landowner wins his court battle, a precedent would be set which
could result in a domino effect with other landowners, ending
wild camping forever on Dartmoor.
That would spell the end to wild camping for us and future
generations. It would mean no more Duke of Edinburgh
expeditions, no more 10 Tors challenge and the end to a tradition
of camping on Dartmoor that has lasted for more than 100 years.
What can you do to help prevent this from happening?
- Attend a peaceful rally on Sunday 11th December from
11-12pm at the Princetown Monument in Dartmoor
- Join a guided hike on Sunday 11th December from
12.30-3.30pm, starting from Princetown
- Attend a peaceful rally on Monday 12th December from 12pm
in London, outside the Royal Courts of Justice
- Use #SaveDartmoor and #TheStarsAreForEveryone on your
wild camping posts
These events are open to everyone, regardless of where you are
in the UK. Please join us if you can and help make a difference. I
will be there in Dartmoor showing my support on the 11th.
Please share this post to your story and help get the word out
about saving Dartmoor before it's too late. Thank you A
#SaveDartmoor
#TheStarsAreForEveryone #HikeBritain #LeaveNoTrace
#RespectTheWild #Weekend_Hiker #RightToRoam #RoamFree

Post edited at 21:49
1
 Billhook 13 Dec 2022
In reply to Rob McKenzie:

Will it actually make any practical difference?

I live within the North York Moors National Park.  All the land with the exception of one small estate is privately owned by large shooting estates and mostly used for grouse shooting.  You have no automatic right to  camp*.

If you turn up and camp discretely you are unlikely to be told to clear off - unless you are parking and camping in a popular spot, having a bonfire, barbecue, drinks, noise and music you are unlikely to be told to clear off. 

Except a few groups of youths/yob/idiots doing what I've mentioned above I'm not away of anyone being told to pack up and leave by the respective landowners.

*There is a small legal exception, in that the law says that if you are on a Right of Way you are allowed carry out such activities as are commensurate with using the path.  So you can stop for a picnic, rest, take photos and so on.  I'm sure this is also likely to include stopping to rest and camp for the night.   

2
 bouldery bits 13 Dec 2022
In reply to Rob McKenzie:

Would this actually stop Ten Tors?

 Lankyman 13 Dec 2022
In reply to Billhook:

> *There is a small legal exception, in that the law says that if you are on a Right of Way you are allowed carry out such activities as are commensurate with using the path.  So you can stop for a picnic, rest, take photos and so on.  I'm sure this is also likely to include stopping to rest and camp for the night.   

I think you probably can stop, picnic, rest etc but - camping? In the Lakes camping above the intake walls has traditionally been tolerated if done unobtrusively but I don't think there's ever been a right in law even on a PROW. Camping isn't listed as a permissable activity on CRoW access land either.

 Phil1919 13 Dec 2022
In reply to Rob McKenzie:

We need a new political system.....desperately. Good luck in the meantime, thanks for posting.

3
 Billhook 13 Dec 2022
In reply to Lankyman:

See if you an get hold of Rights Of Way by Riddall and Trevelyan.  its the definitive guide to law and practice.

Under the Highways Act 1980, the publics rights are described as having, "right of passage for the purpose of passing and re-passing and for purposes reasonably incidental thereto."

In regard to the public's rights when on a highway (which includes footpaths), there are a couple of listed cases where people have exceeded their rights on footpaths and  been prosecuted.  In Hickman v Maisey  1900, Maisey, a sports journalist was seen to walk up and down a ROW for an hour and half taking notes of race  horses being training on adjoining land and was seen at the Court of Appeal to have exceeded his rights as a user of a PROW..  Lord Justice Smith summarised his view of the extent of the public's right in his judgment:  "if a man, while using a highway for passage, sat down for a time to rest himself to call that a tress-pass would be unreasonable.  Similarly, if a man took a sketch from a higway, I should say that no reasonable person would treat that as an act of trespass".  This is case law.  

I know of no case where someone has been prosecuted for sleeping on the side of a PROW -meaning in this case, a FP, bridleway or unclassified road, and using a tent to sleep in whilst on a long walk through the countryside.    Does that fall within Lord Justice Smith's view?

I'd say yes - provided you didn't block the highway, nor did you commit a nuisance, or tresspass on adjoing land.  What do you think?

2
 Lankyman 13 Dec 2022
In reply to Billhook:

> What do you think?

No

2
 Billhook 13 Dec 2022
In reply to Lankyman:

Because?

 Lankyman 14 Dec 2022
In reply to Billhook:

Are you seriously saying that because of something you've read in a book (one written not as a legal document) about a case regarding a sports correspondent over a century ago, that people can legally camp basically anywhere they want (as long as a PROW passes through)? I'd love to see you doing this round here - lots of FPs, BWs and countryside (the Fylde).

Post edited at 08:46
1
 Phil79 14 Dec 2022
In reply to bouldery bits:

> Would this actually stop Ten Tors?

I think it could potentially open the doors to landowners asking for consent for events like ten tors, with the ability to refuse access. So potentially yes.

 Phil79 14 Dec 2022
In reply to Rob McKenzie:

I went along on Sunday to the protest in Princetown, there was a good turnout (300 - 400 people maybe) for a freezing cold morning! Good to see strong local support for this.

Latest on the court case below.

It seems Darwalls lawyers are trying to argue that wild camping doesn't fall under the definition 'outdoor recreation' as defined under the Dartmoor Commons Act (shame they didn't write the act to include the words camping!).  

Given this chap has already closed the only permissive car park to allow easy access to his bit of Dartmoor, I strongly suspect if he wins this case he'll never give permission to allow camping again on Stall Moor. 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/13/landowners-lawyer-says-ther...

A slippery slope/thin end of wedge if ever I've seen one! 

Post edited at 09:00
1
 Tony the Blade 14 Dec 2022
In reply to Phil79:

Time to mass trespass (and camp)

1
 Phil79 14 Dec 2022
In reply to Billhook:

> Will it actually make any practical difference?

Potentially a massive difference, yes, if organised events like Ten Tors becomes a victim of change of law (which looks entirely possible.) 

Ten Tors and various DoE groups from all over the south of UK use Dartmoor on a regular basis, as it provides the only place they know they can spend 2/3 days walking and wild camping without breaking any laws, or having to seek permission to camp. 

There must be hundreds of thousands of kids who have participated in this over the years, and benefited massively.    

This isn't just about individual walkers camping discretely (which will no doubt continue anyway).

 Sam Beaton 14 Dec 2022
In reply to Billhook:

In my view, camping on a PROW would be "reasonably incidental" to the journey if your journey was a 45 mile walk, but not if it was a 5 mile walk. Doubt that will ever be tested in court though!

 subtle 14 Dec 2022
In reply to Tony the Blade:

> Time to mass trespass (and camp)

Do you have to be camp? 

3
 GDes 14 Dec 2022
In reply to Phil79:

Which permissive car park has he closed? 

 FactorXXX 14 Dec 2022
In reply to Tony the Blade:

> Time to mass trespass (and camp)

Can we wait until it gets a bit warmer?

 DR 14 Dec 2022
In reply to Billhook:

Rights of way are for passing and re-passing. Camping for the night doesn't fall into that category so I would say no, it doesn't extend to the right to camp overnight on them. Practically though, who is really going to stop you if you are out in a moorland/ fell area? 

Davie

1
 Phil79 14 Dec 2022
In reply to GDes:

New Waste above Cornwood. Closed in 2014, permissive agreement had been in place with previous owner for years.

https://www.moorlandramblers.org.uk/Images/20140422%20New%20Waste%20Briefin...

Only other car park is couple of Km south at Harford Moor Gate. Makes it tricky to get up the Erme Valley in that area without a fair detour in.

He also owns the Suisgill Estate in Scotland, he started charging for gold panning after he brought the place in 2016.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15885369.landowners-panned-charging-sea...

He obviously has form in this regard, and seems happy to restrict and roll back peoples rights to do things they have long enjoyed....

 Phil79 14 Dec 2022
In reply to Tony the Blade:

> Time to mass trespass (and camp)

Agreed!

 Billhook 14 Dec 2022
In reply to Lankyman:

> Are you seriously saying that because of something you've read in a book (one written not as a legal document) about a case regarding a sports correspondent over a century ago, that people can legally camp basically anywhere they want (as long as a PROW passes through)? I'd love to see you doing this round here - lots of FPs, BWs and countryside (the Fylde).

Please read the post properly.  I did NOT say you could camp anywhere you want.  I proposed  the question whether  camping whilst on a journey using a PROW might fall within the Lord Justice's comments regarding your rights whilst using a PROW. I suggested you could provided you broke no other law.

The book I refer to, is THE book of reference for most everyone whose job involves countryside access, such as national park staff, the NT, and other forms of access/recreation and this would include solicitors  as an initial reference  It is also the book many property lawyers turn to.  It is the guide to Law and Practice.  Have you read it?.  

There are other cases quoted regarding public rights on footpaths .  But I chose that one as it was a  Court of Appeal case and the Lord Justice's comments are therefore  guiding comments for lower courts.  It is one of the reference books used when I studied law.  Just because the relevant case law is over 100 years old matters not a jot.  What matters is no one has successfully challenged that view.  (I would suggest that many of our other current laws are based on common law precedents much older than 1900.)

As you raised the issue, perhaps you could suggest what law you prevents you or me, whilst walking a long distance path, erecting a small tent on a PROW and spend the night?



 

2
 Billhook 14 Dec 2022
In reply to DR:

> Rights of way are for passing and re-passing. Camping for the night doesn't fall into that category so I would say no, it doesn't extend to the right to camp overnight on them. Practically though, who is really going to stop you if you are out in a moorland/ fell area? 

> Davie

Quite right Davie    But Lord Justice Smith summarised his view of the extent of the public's right in his judgment:  "if a man, while using a highway for passage, sat down for a time to rest himself to call that a tress-pass would be unreasonable.  Similarly, if a man took a sketch from a highway, I should say that no reasonable person would treat that as an act of trespass"

And what if  you were on a very long walk  overnight which took you away from accommodation and erected a tent?  Is that reasonably incidental to using a PROW whilst "passing or re-passing".

 

 Lankyman 14 Dec 2022
In reply to Billhook:

> Please read the post properly.  I did NOT say you could camp anywhere you want.  I proposed  the question whether  camping whilst on a journey using a PROW might fall within the Lord Justice's comments regarding your rights whilst using a PROW. I suggested you could provided you broke no other law.

> The book I refer to, is THE book of reference for most everyone whose job involves countryside access, such as national park staff, the NT, and other forms of access/recreation and this would include solicitors  as an initial reference  It is also the book many property lawyers turn to.  It is the guide to Law and Practice.  Have you read it?.  

> There are other cases quoted regarding public rights on footpaths .  But I chose that one as it was a  Court of Appeal case and the Lord Justice's comments are therefore  guiding comments for lower courts.  It is one of the reference books used when I studied law.  Just because the relevant case law is over 100 years old matters not a jot.  What matters is no one has successfully challenged that view.  (I would suggest that many of our other current laws are based on common law precedents much older than 1900.)

> As you raised the issue, perhaps you could suggest what law you prevents you or me, whilst walking a long distance path, erecting a small tent on a PROW and spend the night?

I'm not a lawyer (and I don't have your book) so why don't you  just tell me (and everyone else) just exactly which law gives you the right to camp anywhere on any PROW? You've no right to camp on CRoW land even if you're on a LDP/PROW. Do feel free to correct me if that's expressly allowed because I must have missed it at the time.  Please tell me how you actually deal with real encounters with real farmers, gamekeepers and landowners while you're camping on their land. I'm assuming you have lots of experience of dealing with them?

3
 Pete Pozman 14 Dec 2022
In reply to Billhook:

> And what if  you were on a very long walk  overnight which took you away from accommodation and erected a tent?  Is that reasonably incidental to using a PROW whilst "passing or re-passing".

I'd say yes.What if you fall asleep? I've done it quite a few times, especially on a warm day. "Passing" could be part of a massive long walk. If you need to eat or sleep are you required to leave your passage/journey in order to find the nearest café or hotel? No.

 Billhook 14 Dec 2022
In reply to Lankyman:

There is no law saying you cannot.  Equally there is no law expressly saying you can. There is a presumption that if there's no law against something then it is probably legal.


There's no law saying you can talk or sing on a footpath.  But you can.  There's no law saying you can ski on mountains but you can.  I suggest you can also throw snowballs on a PROW, talk, have an argument, watch birds, animals, flowers and plants.  Gaze at buildings, the wide open vistas, or mountains, or passing cars, combined harvesters, tractors and stop and talk over the gate to the farmer, game-keeper.  You can run on footpaths, hop or skip and take as many photographs as you wish - with or without permission. I'd guess most of us have taken a piss on a footpath/bridleway without permission.   And at least one poster on here has fallen asleep on a footpath or bridleway.  I'm sure I have too. Have you?

(You can also take a pram on a footpath - but thats probably confusing things. (there's a legal precedent for this)

Read the post carefully - I did NOT say you can camp on adjacent land to a footpath or bridleway.

I have lots of real encounters with gamekeepers, farmers and numerous landowners, both in and out of work as I live and work  in the countryside.

If you wish to camp discretely in the countryside and not amongst a landowner's sheep, cattle or crops, or in full view of his/her house  most of these people either won't notice you or don't mind - unless of course you leave piles of shite and litter everywhere, make a noise, and/or damage things.  


To enforce this removal of the right to camp on Dartmoor would entail patrols by landowners to police it.  And as it appears that only one landowner is trying to remove the right to camp.  And if he wins it will simply place Dartmoor in the same legal position as the rest of the national parks in regards to 'wild camping'..   And of course if I lived in Dartmoor I'd  fight to keep that right to camp.  But up here and elsewhere  it won't make a fig of a difference.


 

2
 Lankyman 15 Dec 2022
In reply to Billhook:

You're actually showing that you agree with my own viewpoint. I do camp in places where I don't have any stated rights in law. I do it discreetly without shoving my 'rights' in the faces of those who might object. It would appear Dartmoor NP is the only place in England where this is a stated legal right (as it stands). If I lived down there I'd be on the barricades. Everywhere else, no such legal clarity.

1
 Sam Beaton 15 Dec 2022
In reply to Lankyman:

If something isn't explicitly illegal you're fine (legally not necessarily morally speaking) to carry on doing it until it is proved to be illegal. It has never been proved illegal to camp on a PROW

1
 Ollie Keynes 15 Dec 2022
In reply to Billhook:

Interesting how you've internalised the narrative of a certain type of power.

3
 Lankyman 15 Dec 2022
In reply to Sam Beaton:

> If something isn't explicitly illegal you're fine (legally not necessarily morally speaking) to carry on doing it until it is proved to be illegal. It has never been proved illegal to camp on a PROW

Does this mean that any activity at all is legal on a PRoW until a case is decided against it? How far do you think this 'argument' will carry you when you try camping on crop fields with footpaths through them? Lots of them round here if you want to try.

 Phil79 15 Dec 2022
In reply to Rob McKenzie:

Court hearing now finished, judgement to be passed in New Year. 

Latest here. Climbers mentioned as possibly being impacted if claimants argument wins....

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/14/dartmoor-camping-ban-co...

I like the fact climbing is considered to be a 'sedentary pursuit'.....although to be fair the way I do it, it generally is. Where's the mince pies?

 Bulls Crack 15 Dec 2022
In reply to Lankyman:

The public'c right is a right of passage for the purpose of passing and re-passing and for purposes reasonably  incidental thereto. Picnicking is given as an example of a reasonable purpose, camping might be stretching it a bit and might be criminal if it obstructed the highway.  

However the House of Lords/Director of Public Prosecutions in 1999 were of the opinion that the public highway was a place whee all manner of reasonable activities might take place. 

 deepsoup 15 Dec 2022
In reply to Billhook:

> Read the post carefully - I did NOT say you can camp on adjacent land to a footpath or bridleway.

Well you can't obstruct a footpath or bridleway, so that doesn't leave much room to put a tent up does it?

> I have lots of real encounters with gamekeepers, farmers and numerous landowners, both in and out of work as I live and work  in the countryside.

> If you wish to camp discretely in the countryside and not amongst a landowner's sheep, cattle or crops, or in full view of his/her house  most of these people either won't notice you or don't mind

Most of those people are going to considerable bother and expense to try to extinguish the right to do it though are they?  And while it may not deter many of us who 'wish to camp discretely', it's a more serious obstacle for others.  (As pointed out in posts above.)

> - unless of course you leave piles of shite and litter everywhere, make a noise, and/or damage things.  

Strawman.  Those things are already illegal.  And it's pretty obvious that the very few people who do those things are the very last that will be deterred from camping by the removal of the right to do it, because they're already breaking the law and they don't give a shit.

> And of course if I lived in Dartmoor I'd  fight to keep that right to camp.

Then the whole thrust of your posts seems to make no sense, you seem to have been arguing against the need to do just that.

> But up here and elsewhere  it won't make a fig of a difference.

"I'm alright Jack."  Nice.

2
 Pete Pozman 16 Dec 2022
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> The public'c right is a right of passage for the purpose of passing and re-passing and for purposes reasonably  incidental thereto. Picnicking is given as an example of a reasonable purpose, camping might be stretching it a bit and might be criminal if it obstructed the highway.  

> However the House of Lords/Director of Public Prosecutions in 1999 were of the opinion that the public highway was a place whee all manner of reasonable activities might take place. 

Also the ROW as seen on the map often doesn't correspond exactly to the walked path on the ground; I've nearly got in a fix following the dots through mist when incidental mini crags have not been taken into account.  Should right of passage/way  be considered as a route rather than a demarcated path. In which camping "off the path" is not an issue. 

 TobyT 13 Jan 2023
In reply to Rob McKenzie:

Unfortunately it seems that the case has been lost and wild camping is no longer permitted.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/13/dartmoor-estate-landown...

According to that article, the National Park isn't sure it has the money to appeal; although there is some talk of crowdfunding. I suspect that without new laws being passed in parliament that the right is now gone. I can't see current government or parliament having this at the top of their priority list; and even if General Election brought in a new crop of more sympathetic MPs the time it will take to implement something new means that the right to camp is probably lost for a good 10 years.

 wercat 13 Jan 2023
In reply to Lankyman:

>  Please tell me how you actually deal with real encounters with real farmers, gamekeepers and landowners while you're camping on their land. I'm assuming you have lots of experience of dealing with them?

fieldcraft and tactics


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