UKH

Hello, I'm Sophie, I'm a 4th year Product Design student at Strathclyde University. For my final project I am aiming to design a product which will result in an improved experience for families hiking with children. Currently I am carrying out market research and looking for families to answer a few questions. Do you go hiking with your children? If so, why do you and what encourages you to? If not, why do you not and what would encourage you to? What, if any, are the problems you encounter during a hike with your children? And what do you think could be introduced to the market in order to improve your experience? Any answers and comments are highly apricated, thank you in advanced.  

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

Money can't buy patience and an iron will ;p

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

They really struggle to get decent affordable kit. Mine hate waterproof trousers too as they rustle

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

The best thing without a doubt is to go with their friends of the same age, with or without their friends' parents (preferably with). In one fell swoop the tiredness, moaning, refusing to carry on etc stop. Can't think of a product that would replicate this. 

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

Something that could reliably dispense a Haribo sweet every 10 mins would probably solve most of my 'hiking with kids' problems. 

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

Don't have kids myself, but it always amazes me when Mum and Dad stroll past in their patagucci kit but the kids are wearing ill fitting wellies that are rubbing them them raw on their calfs (or should that be calves ?), or are soaked to the skin in waterproofs that must have all of 10mm hydrostatic head.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that hills will be less crowded as kids vow never to set foot outside of urban areas again, but how about low-cost, ergonomic footwear?

In reply to Ridge:

Decathlon makes pretty low-cost, 'proper' walking shoes and boots for kids. Even then, you need a new pair pretty much every year which is a bit galling. Kids, who'd 'ave 'em.

In reply to Ridge:

Nevisport do reasonable kids' hiking boots under the Trespass label. We've bought them for ours from age 5 up. That said, trying to get them to wear them ain't easy; they're much happier in trainers/Walshes/Inov8s.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

I wouldn't call it "hiking" as anything that I would consider to be a "hike" is probably beyond what a 1 year old would reasonably cope with. But I do go on walks with my daughter.

Same reasons I would go hiking/walking before I had a child. I like being outside and visiting nice places.

I suspect at my daughter's age most problems come down to either poor planning leading to a naffed off and bored infant or just the fact that an infant's mood can be hard to predict. I'm afraid I can't think of any products that would help; it just comes down to having reasonable expectations of an infant and a backup plan if they decide they aren't feeling it that day.

Not sure how helpful that is, sorry.

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

This. In all seriousness. Keep kids fed with sugar and they can happily walk all day. So something that releases a new sweet every x steps, or after x change in altitude.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

I go hiking with my sister's children, aged 2, 6 and 8
 

It's (mostly) fun. If you can allow yourself to slow down and take things at the child's pace, seeing everything through their eyes can be a wonderful experience.

Running out of snacks, having the wrong snacks, tantrums related to inability to find "fossils" while walking on an iron-age hill fort, tantrums because "I want to go outside" (we were outside), siblings hitting each other with sticks, "you don't remember what it's like to be a child with aching legs", pre-pubescent-hormone-surge-induced tantrums, tantrums resulting in child 2 running away in the woods and a 3 hour search to find him again...

Some way of carrying infinite volume and variety of snacks? More sensibly, a book, app, or other resource with ideas for quirky things to see and do, and games to play while walking.

In reply to Ridge:

You should see what some parents kit their kids out in for skiing in February......

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

We now have a pretty decent group of people between whom we swap outdoor clothing/footwear. Not had to buy much new and have managed to hand down everything we've used.

In reply to Ridge:

When I bought my current patagucci waterproof my eldest son was probably about 3 ft tall and now he's 6ft-1ish. I've stayed the same size.

Even if they have decent kit they might decide they want the wellies, refuse the rustling trousers, etc.

So we end up churning through stuff from Decathlon, Mountain Warehouse sometimes second hand via eBay. One way or another is can be a lottery whether any purchase worthwhile or not. 

Maybe (Sophie) there's something to be done around sorting out kids with decent kit because there's definitely waste going on at the moment. Rental? Guaranteed buy back based on condition? 

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

Plus one for footwear. We've never found hiking boots for 2-3 year old son yet, though I admit my search probably hasn't been completely exhaustive. 

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

What would improving the experience when hiking with children? 
Not taking the children, and I say this as a father of 3

If you have to / want to bring them, however:

We've found various things make a difference... The most succesful trick is that kids don't understand "the point" of a walk for the sake of a walk, so anything that turns it into an adventure, whether a bug hunt, a story, a mystery... anything to keep them going to see what's around the next corner/rock/tree/hill works.

If we say "come on, we're going for a walk", that's always a hard pass. If we say "let's go on a bug hunt", or "see if we can find a toad", regardless of success, it's something they want to do.

Walking with other kids as mentioned earlier soaks up 95% of complaints, as do snacks.

Lastly, and kind of tying in to the "the point" is "cool gadgets" to fiddle with. We've taken walkie-talkies (which are then used whilst standing 2m apart), microscopes/magnifying glasses, crayons & paper for rubbings. Anything to make it something other than a walk tends to work.

But mostly snacks.

Always, snacks.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

There is plenty of footwear around (cheap or very expensive) and most of the trespass stuff can be picked up relatively cheaply eg. Walking trousers (usually we manage to charity shop it, but we live in a relatively rural and affluent area). 
 

backpscks for slightly older kids are a bit difficult - my son now has a deuter but it was really expensive - all the cheaper bags are ill fitting or ill suited to carrying any kind of load up hills.

to be honest the barriers aren’t gear related - more about knowing when to push them further or to take an escape, how to motivate them, when to issue sweets (often!).

There’s a lack of good quality kid’s camping gear that would cope well with single digit temperatures and not weigh too much - that is a very very niche market though I suspect! 

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

What age children are you targeting?

My kids are 2 and 5, we go for walks yes, but I wouldn't call it hiking.

I can't wait to go hiking (proper) with the kids because I love hiking and getting the kids envolved would be a great family experience.

Child meltdowns. At the age of my kids they are a ticking time bomb. You never know when somehting is going to upset them and no amount of cheering them up is going to get them to walk back to the car.

So we keep the walks short.

If there was a way I could carry both kids if all hell breaks loose I would probably be more adventurous. We have one of those baby rucksack things, but they hold the child very far back and they pull your shoulders back making long distance very uncomfortable. 

Also, no good for a 5 year old.

As above.

Last time I went for a walk with the 2 year old, he found a piece of glass on the floor. I took it off him and is was a long time before he forgave me for that. 

As above, for young kids, a way to safely carry more than one child in a balanced way that doesn't cripple you. Good for building leg strength which is a bonus.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

A dog or a childminder and leave the kids at home

Or a dog and a childminder - just take the dog...

Only kidding - can't wait for my granddaughter to be old enough for walks (with the dog...)

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

Augmented reality, some Dinosaurs lurking on Cat Bells would be good, or some Knights doing battle on horseback halfway up Mam Tor.

Or renaming 'getting to the top' with 'getting to the next level'

Or just Pepperami geocaching might work.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

One of us would go on ahead and hide Smarties in walls etc. For some reason it's got to be Smarties.

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

Yes. That is me. With my own kids, obvs.

Also, if you're an idiot like me and think a forecast of "light rain" in the Lake District is fine for a big hill day with kids, a teleportation device for getting back to the car when everyone is crying, soaked and, in the case of my 6 year old, covered in mud after slipping into a quagmire, would be perfect.

Or, if you can't get hold of a teleportation device, a bothy shelter and thermos of hot chocolate.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

A kit sharing app would be useful. One of the problems, depending on where you go and how many kids you have is getting them all kitted out in suitable gear, knowing they will soon grow out of it and may refuse to wear it. With several rapidly growing kids it can cost a lot to get them all adequately clothed and shod. Says he as a father in a blended family of (what were) six kids. I bought and gave away a load of stuff on here, back in the day.

You need resilience to take children out. There will be tantrums. But there will be tantrums at home too, so why not take them out? There may be fewer tantrums if you play hide and seek along the way, or make the whole thing about going to the place where we are going to play hide and seek etc.

Take the long view. The cold, wet and sweat may seep into their system. (HaHa....) We took three teenagers along the GR20. None of them were gnarly outdoorsy types, and all of them had had their outdoor tantrums when younger (mainly bikes thrown in hedges), so to sweeten the pill we booked a swanky hotel for our last night, that cost about the same as several nights on the refuges. They never recall that when since talking about that holiday, but do endlessly laugh about the time we arrived after a tough day, soaking wet at a refuge where all the spaces we had booked were taken, but in the end we got our bunk spaces.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

Parents are keen hillwalkers and as an only child I got dragged out every weekend.

Kit has changed sooooo much since the 80's. Even the most basic waterproof from the likes of decathlon is way superior in breathability to what I (and my parents) wore, and wicking base layers for kids were unheard of at a time when fleece was cutting edge.

​​Boiled sweets were key to success, for keeping energy levels high and motivating/bribing. Also as others have said it needs to be more than just a walk so wildlife, fossils or archaeology help to ease the boredom of the actual walking. 

Scrambling is so much more fun than walking, bearing in mind that depending on the child's age a 'scramble' may not be remotely technical but just anything that requires the use of hands.

Oh and getting muddy. Walking through mud or being knee deep in peat bogs is so much fun, especially when usual of trekking you to be careful your pants are equally filthy

Another thing I did a lot of was navigating, being given responsibility for following a planned route from the map or a compass bearing - much more fun than just following a leader, plus teaches a life skill without even trying. (Under suitable supervision to take over when I got bored)

Maybe an eye-spye kind of book (please, not an app) for wildlife, flora, geomorphology, map symbols, geology etc

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

This thread reminded me of other 'learning experiences' I've had while hiking with children, although I can't think of any item which would have helped:

1. My 4 year old needing a number 2 on the way down from Snowdon (no trowel with me so I had to dig with a stick)

2. Same child, now 7 years old, having a meltdown at the top of Moel Siabod after a lack of sleep / school residential / too much ambition - resulting in me carrying her on my back for a large portion of the decent - no adult males around to share the load, either

3. Me falling off a scramble and having to pretend I hadn't hurt myself for fear of upsetting everyone else (it turns out I'm not as nimble as I used to be) - my daughter sobbing because she thought I'd fallen to my death

4. My 9 year old son falling into a stream on Kinder and getting soaked from head to foot (no spare clothes for him - it was Summer - he had to wear a random selection from everyone's bags and wet socks, pants & shoes for the rest of the day)

Not blaming anyone but myself for all these events. In between we did have some good times, honestly

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

I agree with some of the other posters here.  Little kids find a great deal of wonder and fascination in things they find whilst out and about.  It can start off with leaves and sticks and go on to fossils, rocks, birds, wild animals, sheep skulls (maybe the last one is just my kids) etc.  An app which might assist Mum and Dad with those awkward questions regarding 'what is it?  Why is is there?' and give suggestions regarding where certain things may be found, could be very useful.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

Hi, we have three kids. Two are now adults. We've taken them walking a fair bit. In the Lakes, the three peaks and the Tour du Mont Blanc.

As said before the answer is- Haribos. There are perfectly fine kids boots, walking trousers, tech tops and waterproofs. Kids like waterproof trousers as much as adults. If you have three boys then a fair amount of handmedown action takes place.

eBay is useful.  I can't really think of a specific 'product' that solves a specific 'problem'. Sorry.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

The only gear we ever found a real problem for kids was a decent rucksack. Most of the ones made for them that we found were garishly coloured, poorly put together and uncomfortable even with little kit inside.

The only decent one we tracked down was made by Deuter. It had all the bells and whistles, but was expensive and I suppose might not fit all children as well as it did ours and those of our our friends. I'm pretty sure its still in use somewhere or other, which I suppose means it was good value on one level, it's just that the benefit has been very widely spread.

So perhaps a well made and comfortable rucksack for children, but at a decent price, would be something to look at.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

Hi, the answer is simple and it isn’t product based…

to keep little ones interested is the key and you can’t beat a good treasure hunt…Geocache is the answer…..

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

Love the replies!  My answer to keeping them amused is a game they made up called "The Adventure Game".  It's a bit like the old school Fighting Fantasy 'Choose Your Own Adventure' Books and the rules are vague...essentially Child 1 is the Games Master and Child 2 is the player the GM poses the player a situation and gives them some options "You are in a plane hurtling towards the jungle, the pilot is dead you can either try to pilot the plane yourself or use the parachute on the wall to jump out" from there the game evolves whichever way they want it to depending on the answers given.  Once in Wales in an ascent of Cadair Idris one game of this lasted biggest child and his cousin the whole way up and down.  It had evolved into some sort of civilisation-esque global domination effort by then though.

Oh, and snacks.

Oh, and walking with friends - that's the absolute jackpot.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

Sorry for the late reply, but one interesting thing that Leo Houlding mentioned on his recent talk was even his kids (that really appear to be pushing the limits of what most adults are capable of and still under 10) need encouraged up the routes sometimes. His amazing tip was having a kids audiobook playing out his phone which was in his back pocket - the children left with no choice but to keep up or lose track of what Harry Potter was doing next!

I'm yet to try it, but seems an interesting option for when many of the above (excellent) suggestions fail!

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

discuss the merits of footwear or educate about nature?

In reply to Bobling:

What about children's route cards for popular routes with treasure hunt or game built in? Nice simple navigation for them to do with things to spot or find along the way, perhaps accompanied by a compass because kids love getting stuff. 

Some company had made a whole series of these as walking tours around historic towns and cities, take you around and tell you some of the history. The usual kid's equivalent are simple clues to build a word puzzle / anagram that wins a prize when solved. Usually this a chocolate based snack at one of the NT sites by one of their sponsors; in this case the parents will have to provide the reward.   

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

From a recommendation over on UKB, I bought a pair of Pentax Papilo compact binoculars. These focus down really close (<450mm) and are a revelation for watching bugs in their natural habitat - my ratio of walking/stopping to look has probably dropped to toddler level....

I know kids struggle with binos, but some form of  4K camera rig that fitted over the eyepieces of a set of binoculars and fed to a smartphone so it can be viewed as a group activity would add to the bug/plant hunt fun. You could get really fancy with an AR overlay identifying things in an image or feed to a VR headset (even Google cardboard style ones) to get the full stereo effect when not out in the field.

Having a fit on cap unit would allow it to be fitted to any set of binos, so you're not trying to sell cheap optics to families that may already have high quality binos. Having a two part system allows the kids to share (or allows mum/dad to drive the expensive binoculars...) and work as a team. Makes bug hunting less invasive - look at them in situ at a bit of a distance rather than stomping through areas or picking them up to look at in a jar, which I guess is a good thing from the environmental side. By the sounds of it, fit a Haribo dispenser that works on correct ID of bug/bird/hill and you have a sure fire winner

Best of luck with the project!

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

In my experience no gadets are required but two things would help:

(1) The removal of all easy sections of a hike, anything flat and boring, without peril or drama or without extreme weather.

(2) A constant supply of food, especially when very cold.

I would also say weather appropriate clothing but then you have the trouble of making them wear said items and as long as you constantly feed them they seem to be immune to weather.

For the owners perhaps some sort of hypno thing to block out the moaning on easy / boring terrain?

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

a guide (could be an app?) that tells you where the nearest carnivorous plants are!

Really!  The mere mention of them fascinates youngsters.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

Invisible earplugs so others don't judge you for ignoring the kids 

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

Some kind of device, has to be small and easily fits in a pocket, rechargeable batteries and affordable price that has similar functionality to a taser or electric baton but exploits some kind of legal loophole so not banned. Probably a range of colours or styles would help adoption in the outdoor sector, maybe develop a second model with enhanced battery life aimed for outdoor educators. Wrist strap to prevent being dropped. Thanks!

In reply to CantClimbTom:

would it have a humane destruction facility for use on people who leave bags of dog shit around?

 (2) A constant supply of food, especially when very cold.

Yes! my boy year old discovered the restorative power of a flask sweet tea one particularly cold day in the mountains. 

And giving kids a stick seems to to help immeasurably with their motivation to walk. No idea why.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

My experience consists entirely of coaxing my nephew out when he was just about feasible to carry on my shoulders.

The way we kept his interest was making up stories, so Shutlingsloe (Macclesfield Forest) was a volcano (the summit is a bit pointy), and the storm damage to the trees was caused by the (friendly) dragon bumping into them. etc...

I'm a bit better at making shit up than his parents, so no great problem for me, but some sort of story/quest generator app?

You'd add in a few details about where you were going (hilly/flat, forested/moorland etc) and it'd make up a basic story for the parents to tell to motivate the kid. Like a more focussed set of story dice.

In reply to elliot.baker:

Try Superfit if you can find them - they're a German brand I think.

In reply to Guy Hurst:

Ours have Trollkids ones - very good.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

Perhaps an augmented reality app that puts things to hunt on popular mountains - a bit like pokemon go?

We've done some lowland hikes in Germany where there were 'stations' with things for the kids to do relevant to the location - match animal footprints to the animal, or stamps to make them in a sandpit, or a longjump pit with the lengths different woodland animals can leap marked out. Or wooden silhouettes to spot amongst the trees.

Ours have enjoyed hiking with friends most - they spend all their time charging around and hiding from each other and forget they're hiking.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

A set of waterproof cards for playing outdoor bingo.  Collected a stile, rock, stream, tree and shout full house etc.

In reply to Toerag:

I have a phone app that puts a TRex in my living room.

I'm a little greedy with it but I let my kids have a go occasionally.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith: as has been said above geo caching works really well , treasure hunts , challenges . I think an app that brings together many of the ideas above would be a winner . A few times I pre walked a route planting things to find and setting challenges . But this  a lot of time and thought  . I did this for one of the kids birthdays a few years ago . Puzzles , team building type tests ( outdoor instructor games ) took an awful lot of time but went down very well . If there was an app that would have allowed me to add this easily I would have done so. 

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

We could have made good use of a cattle prod to expediate my reluctant younger brother's regular protests before leaving the house for every single family walk I can remember.

In reply to johnlc:

Moors for the Future have developed a nice app that does some of this - definitely worth a look if you walk on moorland areas with youngsters.

As others have said, I think the main thing, especially with younger children, is to make it as interesting and fun as possible by focusing on exploring rather than walking. My daughter had a little collection bag for treasure (sticks, leaves etc) and finding things for this could make even a routine walk into something more exciting.

I am a grandparent and find that I have much more patience now than in the busy early years of parenting. I will happily walk at a snails pace if it means we're having a good time A little stove or flask for hot chocolate and a tasty snack also makes even a short walk feel like a proper outing.

Good footwear and warm waterproof clothes help a lot too! 

In reply to Anoetic:

I was also thinking about Geocache- wed did it a little bit

In reply to Guy Hurst:

That's a good idea, and to take it a step further, adjustable back length to cope with growing kids (Vaude used to have an adjustable back system). You could have an adjustable belt and yoke for a range of ages, then multiple attachment points for the main sac to clip in the right postion on the yoke.

In reply to SophieMckenzieSmith:

Agree with many of the already excellent ideas.

I'm a fan of the "thru-walk".  I find it really difficult to get my kids to walk if we park by the play park then try to convince them to do a circular walk ... they know that the further they walk the longer they are away from the play park.  End up getting a lot of the "when are we going to turn back" noises.

We often do a thru walk.  I'll drop the OH and the kids (5 & 8) one place, bomb down to the end with the car and walk back to them.  I'll usually get them ~25% along the trail and walk them back the other 75%.  Treat & a play at the end ... maybe a picnic half way along.    Works for beach walks or country parks etc ..  Can turn it into a run if you want.  Works with the bikes too.

Basically .. you need carrot to get them to walk.  No reason for the walking and you get the moans.

On the plus side ... means I get a longer walk/run/ride too.

Maybe an app for kids thru-walks?  Filter by distance, activity type, difficulty, add the drop off point, parking points for the end, what the treat is at the end is etc ... ???