UKH

I'd like a durable windproof/showerproof jacket or smock with a cut suitable for climbing and a volume adjustable hood that goes over a helmet.

Does such a thing exist? Most windproofs seem to be super light and not very durable or have no hood/a crap hood.

Any suggestions?

Ta.

Doesn't quite fill all of the brief but does tick a lot of the boxes, the mountain equipment squall is worth a look.

I wear it a lot of the time climbing, windproof with a good hood that I wear over a helmet when belaying if need be. Although as I find with all hoods, bit restrictive when climbing, so flick it down for the lead. 

Used to bead when new a bit, but 5 years old now, so I wouldn't really class it as showerproof but most of the time I don't reach for the lightweight waterproof in the bag. I think it's impressively durable. 

Thanks but I'm specifically looking for a windproof layer rather than a softshell or anything with insulation.

https://alpkit.com/products/resolute-mens-softshell-jacket

I have one, seems reasonably tough, no insulation, good hood, slightly stretchy.

Rab Borealis? Hood is fine for pulling over a helmet on belays, but I'd take it down for climbing. Good value (think I paid £45 new), one of my most used jackets in the summer.

This one is still in very good nick after plenty of use https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/clothing/softshell/black_diamond_alpine_sta... its arguable how good the hood is over a helmet though.

And this one has had less but still plenty of use, is lighter and the hood does go properly over the hood. I've not had any issues climbing in it, putting skis on my shoulder in it etc. https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/clothing/softshell/montane_lite-speed_jacke...

The Lite-Speed is the closest I've seen to what you want I reckon.

Apart from your spec for an adjustable hood the Rab Borealis works well.

I would also recommend the ME Squall. Yes, it is a softshell, but very lightweight and one of the most used outer garments I own. 

The Patagonia Houdini is another good choice - I regularly run in one when it's a bit cold and windy, but certainly not as durable as the Squall. Hood doesn't fit over a helmet however.

Arcteryx Squamish would be worth looking at, but again, non helmet compatible hood.

Go on then - define what makes the two different?  

Patagonia houdini either normal or alpine version (the latter being more water resistant). Both have hood that works over a helmet and chest pockets that the jacket folds into so you can hang it off your harness. Have had both a normal and an alpine version for years and both going strong so far (although I've resisted the temptation to thrutch up gritstone chimenys in either).

Sounds like the Paramo Enduro windproof jacket would fit the bill. It's closer cut than some Paramo stuff, and not outrageously expensive.

The answer used to be the North Cape smock or the Needlesports equivalent.   Not sure what it is now but keen to find out.

Just been for a walk and chucked my Borealis on, I've been reminded of what annoys me about it, the zip isn't well covered and it occasionally plucks a bit of my beard out. 

Might have to put the ME Squall on my Christmas list!

Don't know if you can still get them but I have a Mountain Equipment Dispersion jacket which does well and has a proper hood like on the waterproofs.

Since you are obviously not after an ultra-lightweight 'crisp packet' windproof, what you are asking for is essentially a modern, non-insulated, stretch 'softshell'.  Which the Alpkit Resolute, ME Squall, and Rab Borealis are.

Nothing, as far as I can see... Granted, soft shell is, and always has been, a very vague term, with at least four main variants:

robust stretch
insulated robust stretch
shelled micropile/microfleece
shell/membrane/fleece laminate

I think I wrote a post on a thread about this some time back in 2002...

Another vote for the Paramo Enduro. Its got a more 'normal' cut than the traditional Paramo offerings so fits very nicely.  Single layer windproof, no insulation, two chest pockets, and two pockets which go through the jacket to act either as ventilation or to reach the pockets of the layer underneath.  Holds off most of the weather you can throw at it, you can layer it with the Enduro fleece to (in theory) make a waterproof jacket but I have never had much luck with this. 

My only gripe is that the hood both has a peak and a wire (great when you are wearing the hood), but its weirdly heavier than the rest of the jacket so if you are not wearing it, it has a habit of pulling the jacket under your chin (I hope that makes sense?).  I have started rolling the hood up when not in use now to stop this. 

As above, Rab Borealis.  Hood's a bit of a battle with a helmet, but it's stretchy and reasonably windproof.  Not as small or as windproof as a Montane Featherlite, but they're not stretchy and don't have a hood.  You pays your money....

Hi Dave

I had been looking for pretty much that, to dangle off my harness for multipitch. I eventually bought a Montane Minimus (Taunton Leisure, £115 inc IV postcode delivery) Supposedly waterproof, although not tested yet, over helmet hood. Mine is Large size, 200g. I'm usually medium, but L seemed better for me. 

John

Thanks folks. Thus far,  the Paramo looks closest to what I was after.

Some may think it a little over the top, but I simply wear my ME hard shell jacket as a robust wind proof.  Gore Tex pro isn't exactly heavy stuff and I find it plenty tuff enough. Then you can wear what you like under it depending on the temperature.

Softshell has become a meaningless term. When it first appeared it became trendy and marketable, so everyone called their stuff softshell. So now it means almost anything and nothing.

To me, a windproof is a lot more lightweight than a softshell. The latter is more like a jacket, often in an almost neoprene-type material,  but definitely stiffer than a windproof. My old Rab Boreas(?) not Borealis, is a very thin windshirt and does a superb job of keeping out a biting wind, particularly when combined with a thin  insulation layer. Good for the bike on a cold day. 

The ME squall others have mentioned has a lot going for it: very durable, excellent hood, decent weatherproofing. I just wish it didn't have an offset zip, it stops me wearing mine.

It has always been a pretty meaningless term, that no-one really knew what it was supposed to cover.

A lightweight Pertex or similar windproof jacket will weigh about 150g. A lightweight, robust softshell jacket will weigh about 300g. Both are wind resistant and water resistant.

You are trading off weight and robustness.

I wrote the following in 2005:

captain paranoia    
    Posted: 17/02/2005 5:45:17 PM

The origins of the 'soft shell revolution' can be traced to ice climbing, which requires the following features:

close-fitting, so that it doesn't snag, or get in the way of complex movements
unrestrictive, so that it doesn't hinder the wide range of reaching, twisting movements
wind resistant to prevent loss of body heat
water resistant to keep off drips; rain and ice are usually incompatible, so waterproof is unnecessary
highly breathable, to cope with the hard physical exertion required for ice climbing
robust, so that it can cope with abrasion on rock and ice
built-in insulation could be useful, or insulation layers could be worn underneath
able to accept an insulating layer on top, for periods of inactivity whilst belaying

If you look at this list, and then match it up to available materials, you arrive at Schoeller Dynamic. Since then, other soft shell materials have developed, with different properties, but based around the core ice climbing criteria. Most of the differences are the in way in which windproofing, waterproofing and insulation are addressed.

So, we now have the following flavours of soft shell:

- robust, stretchy windproof, such as Schoeller Dynamic. This has no membrane or insulation.

- continuous membrane garments such as WindStopper. These use a breathable membrane laminated between inner and outer face fabrics, giving complete windproofing and waterproofing. Initially, these fabrics were fleece, but, recognising that this was less than ideal, now come in many flavours, including woven outer face fabric, and light insulation lining. Since no air passes, most people find them to be rather clammy.

- perforated membrane garments, such as Polartec PowerShield are similar to the above, only the membrane is designed to allow the 'Goldilocks factor' airflow, allowing just enough air through to take away excess heat and moisture. Again, the face and inner fabrics vary. PowerShield is just Windbloc fleece with 'Goldilocks' holes (Air Control Technology, as Malden call it) and a robust woven or knitted face fabric replacing the fleece outer. Due to the air flow, they are cooler than WindStopper when you are inactive.

- microfibre/micropile such as Marmot DriClime, ME Microtherm etc. This uses a water- and wind-resistant microfibre outer, such as Pertex, lined with a micropile inner (often called microfleece), such as duPont CoolMax Alta Microtherm. The outer shell provides protection from wind and rain, and the lining wicks moisture away, provides some insulation, and, because the tips of the micropile dry very quickly due to body heat, feels dry to the touch. This is, to some extent, a parallel development to soft shell, as it lacks the stretch properties; Marmot, who, with their DriClime products, can claim to be one of the originators of this type, do not list it under 'soft shell' in their catalogue.

- proofed microfibre/micropile, such as MHW Tempest SL, Macpac Matrix. These use a lightweight, waterproof, breathable coating on the microfibre outer, to provide an almost waterproof outer, at the cost of reduced breathability.

From its ice climbing roots, soft shell has since been adopted in the wider market partly as a matter of fashion, having a more 'athletic' appearance, due to the close-fitting, tailored design, and partly because it offers improved breathability over hard shells. See Rennies Soft Shell for a good introduction. Whether this wider adoption is appropriate is open to debate, and depends on your personal physiology, personal preferences, and activities.

Some people run hot, and are very active.

Some people run cold, and engage in low effort activities.

Some people prefer to run hot and damp, some prefer cool and dry.

I would say that soft shell is best suited to single day activities, where you can retreat if the weather turns bad, or can survive the day, even if in less than comfortable conditions. It is also suitable for activities where rain would usually force a retreat; rock climbing, for instance, is usually a dry weather pursuit because the rock becomes too slippery when wet. It is also suitable for conditions where you know it won't rain; skiing, for instance (although I _have_ known it to rain, even then...)

For a wider use, I would suggest that a soft shell should have a hood, as I don't think anything can be considered to be a 'shell' without, especially when they make claims to replace a hard shell in all but the worst weather. The reason that many soft shells don't have a hood can be traced back to their ice-climbing origins: ice climbers will almost always wear a helmet, to protect them from falling ice. Even then, I think there's a lot to be said for a hood that fits over or under a helmet.

IMHO, of the soft shell systems, the one best suited to walking is the microfibre/micropile, worn over a base layer. Of course, the built-in insulation means that this isn't suitable for summer use.

There have been comments that we get a lot of rain in the UK. I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, there are days when it rains during part of the day, but it's unusual for it to rain solidly, heavily, all day. Of course, that _does_ happen sometimes, but you usually have pretty good warning that it's going to do that. Cycling to work every day means that I get to sample the weather, and I'd be surprised if there are more than 20 days a year when I need to wear waterproofs to cycle to work.

If you are unsure that soft shell is suitable for you, or you engage in activities that require multi-day protection from rain, where you can't retreat or survive the day, then the simple layering system of base layer, 100 weight fleece, water-resistant windproof and lightweight waterproof is a very versatile and can cope with a wide range of activities and conditions. In the cold, you can add a synthetic duvet to cope with periods of inactivity. For trousers, I'd go for Supplex or similar nylon, or stretch nylon, with a water resistant treatment. This is the system I would recommend to someone starting to equip themselves for the first time.

Whether you need a full-on _hard_ hard shell will depend on your activity. It may be suitable for activities where abrasion is likely, such as mountaineering or scrambling, but I think it would be OTT for walking, where there is little abrasion apart from rucksack straps. In this case, I think Paclite or lightweight Event are more suitable. Or Paramo, even...

If you do go down the soft shell route, and decide you need a waterproof, then get the lightest you can find. The argument is that you shouldn't need to wear it in anything but the worst rain, so it'll remain in your bag most of the time. I confess that, although I find my ME Microtherm mountain jacket good enough to fight off prolonged, moderate rain, I have yet to manage to wean myself off carrying a lightweight waterproof, just in case. I think I'll get there, though, as my confidence builds, and I pay attention to weather forecasts.

I’ve got old versions of the paramo fuera smock. Much more robust than a pertex wind proof and the hood is good.

Ive just tried it on with a Petzl meteor helmet and it fits reasonably. Stiff wired peak and pull toggles for volume and just a piece of Velcro for adjustment at the back of the head. Works fine with a helmet 

Arcteryx Psiphon SL Pullover is brilliant - but I don't think they make them anymore...

Paramo but Fuera rather than the other recommendations. I have an older (c10yo smock in XL) and a newer (maybe 5yo jacket in L). I think both styles for the bill but the newer has a better(read trimmer) cut but still the appropriate hood.

Another vote for the Paramo. I have had an enduro jacket since 2013 or 2014 and it has put up with way more shit than it had any right to. It is still functional after many winter routes, udgy chimneys, waterfall climbs, bike crashes, self arrest teaching sessions and I have no idea how. I've had the velcro wrist tabs replaced by a local tailor and need to go at the zip every now and again with a pair of pliers, but other than that it works fine. Awesome to wear, horrible to carry. I've not tried the outer windproof only version but would happily buy it if my enduro were to ever actually give up the ghost.