Patagonia - expensive, sure, but profits go to good causes

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 MisterPiggy 15 Sep 2022

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/14/patagonias-billionaire-owne...

So if we can afford their gear, we can also feel good about where their profits go. A good effort, I think.

1
 ianstevens 15 Sep 2022
In reply to MisterPiggy:

It’s also not cheaply made garbage, so lasts more than 5 uses. I’ve still got Patagonia stuff I have been using for 10+ years, whilst most of my other kit from that time has died.

 NathanP 15 Sep 2022
In reply to ianstevens:

And they really mean it about the lifetime guarantee and repairing things for free.

 Flinticus 15 Sep 2022
In reply to MisterPiggy:

Opps hadn't seen your post. 

 midgen 15 Sep 2022
In reply to MisterPiggy:

Definitely makes me more inclined to buy their gear, sadly it just doesn't tend to fit me well, but I'll try it on next time I'm buying!

 neilh 15 Sep 2022
In reply to MisterPiggy:

Pata gucci.

Bit a of a lifestyle brand.Its when you are wondering around say Chicago and you see their shops in trendy hip affluent parts of American big citys you get to understand the brilliant marketing.

Its still good hard wearing stuff though

35
 Godwin 15 Sep 2022
In reply to NathanP:

I have never bought any, put off by the price, however your posting suggests that over its life time it may prove to be be good value. Also (social science phrase here, sorry) maybe buying cheaper less ethical stuff, is externalising a cost, I the end consumer should be paying.

Is it actually expensive, in the long run?

 galpinos 15 Sep 2022
In reply to neilh:

That was Rose Macario's influence. If they wanted to influence the market, they had to have a big enough market share. So they changed their approach. They've gone for an ethical company no-one outside of climbing cared about to getting written about in the NYT.

You may see that as selling out, I see that as making a difference.

(It also justifies my 20+ years of being a Patagucci fanboi. As my wife points out, If I'd have been born 20yrs later, my dress style would actually have been cool!)

 neilh 15 Sep 2022
In reply to galpinos:

Its very clever and admirable considering the Trust he has now set up.

I keep meaning to read his book.

 echo34 15 Sep 2022

Hopefully this will be good!

I hope they don’t become a fashion brand though to improve the margins. I always thought their environmentalism was a tad hypocritical though when they basically redesigned everything each season.
 

But hopefully this will be of benefit to all and they will continue to make great gear

5
 Dave Garnett 15 Sep 2022
In reply to Godwin:

> Is it actually expensive, in the long run?

I have several items that must be 20 years old and still perfectly functional, so no.  And, actually, it isn't that expensive anyway - compare the prices with Arc'teryx! 

 neilh 15 Sep 2022
In reply to echo34:

Its exactly what they have become......

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 robertmichaellovell Global Crag Moderator 15 Sep 2022
In reply to neilh:

Is this a bad thing? If the gear is still good climbing etc. then we are happy. And if the masses buy it rather than other brands, the profit goes to good causes rather than lining an investors pockets. What's not to like? Far from being a good marketing exercise (they have certainly done that well) perhaps it will set an example for other businesses.

 mbh 15 Sep 2022
In reply to Godwin:

> Is it actually expensive, in the long run?

All their stuff that I have bought lasts well. I'm still frequently wearing a hoodie that I bought 22 years ago. That must have worked out as being very cheap. Mind you, my wife thinks I should have thrown it out long ago and I also still often wear a Marmot wind shirt bought at the same time. Both are trumped by a 30 year old Mammut raincoat which has worn cuffs but otherwise still seems fine to me and so gets used.

In reply to mbh:

My only 2 gripes with Patagonia are: sizing and discontinuing products I felt were amazing!

Ascentionist Jacket - an unlined, tough softshell I use foe Scottish winter and Alpine. Cost me about £140?? in about 2009 and it's done 3 winters in Chamonix and 6 back here. Not out every week, but still outlasted 2 or 3 jackets compared to mates.

[edit] I see they've actually released a totally different jacket of the same name... super-light hardshell https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/clothing/waterproofs/patagonia_ascensionist... [/edit]

Some kind of softshell pants... The had braces, stretch tough softshell, waterproof knees and bum and were just all round great.

Sizing, yeah, when they went a bit more "mainstream" they seemed to have to accommodate fat Americans (other round-shaped non-sporty people may apply) so there was always just way too much "belly" material on the jackets. That may have changed...

Either way, I wholly applaud this move they've made. My girlfriend was a bit cynical about their high prices and wondered how much cash Chouinard has pocketed up to now...I couldn't care TBH, the new foundation should now be getting £200m+ per year to spend on good projects. I'm not so convinced the prices are super-high given the level of detail they go to with social and environmental wellbeing of the supply chain. As someone above mentioned - the cheaper brands are probably pocketing as much, by offloading the clean up and welfare costs of their business on to the wider society - we pay either way!

Post edited at 16:44
 The New NickB 15 Sep 2022
In reply to Dave Garnett:

I’ve got a t-shirt that I bought in their Chamonix shop in 2003, must have been washed hundreds of times. A bit worn looking, but still got life in it. I’ve got some shorts that I bought at the same time, not worn as much, but basically look brand new.

 Doug 15 Sep 2022
In reply to The New NickB:

I wore out a Patagonia short sleeved shirt, but it was a very light cotton (so good to wear when hot) & I wore it a lot for some 15 years. All my other Patagonia shirts, one close to 30 years old, are still going strong. All bought in sales so not particularly expensive. I've also  a primaloft gilet which seems indestructable despite heavy use for 20 odd years.

 climbingpixie 15 Sep 2022
In reply to echo34:

> I always thought their environmentalism was a tad hypocritical though when they basically redesigned everything each season.

You don't have to buy the new versions though, it's not like their existing stuff becomes obsolete. I've got a Nano Puff that's about 9 years old - it's still going strong, getting loads of use every year, with not much more wear than a few stains and a small rip where I got my nut key caught in it. Sure there are newer versions that are a bit lighter or in a nicer colour but they won't stop me getting another 5-10 years out of my existing one!

 echo34 15 Sep 2022
In reply to climbingpixie:

To clarify I was refering more to the fact that they changed the design, fit, colours, shapes etc so frequently. Surely it’s not efficient use of materials to change it up so much. Also mega annoying when you want to buy a second item and it’s now a completely different fit. I’ve got 3 Cap Lightweight T-shirts and they all fit completely differently 

 Rampart 15 Sep 2022
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

>  Some kind of softshell pants... The had braces, stretch tough softshell, waterproof knees and bum and were just all round great.

Sounds like the Backcountry Guide Pant, the discontinuation of which is my perennial lament. I also think they were all round great - probably the best softshell troos I've ever worn - and I remain hopeful Patagonia will resurrect them some time.

 peppermill 15 Sep 2022
In reply to MisterPiggy:

I have an old R1 hoodie I bought second hand from a mate for £20.

I've had it five years and its still going strong despite recently patched elbows and is quite possibly the best piece of outdoor kit I've ever owned. I'm lucky enough to have been able to get a lot of decent kit second hand and cheap but this it one of the few things I'd seriously consider buying new when it eventually dies, which is some distant time in the future.

In reply to Rampart:

It was!! They were a great pant. Pretty happy with the new Rab Ascendor Alpine...

In reply to Dave Garnett:

> I have several items that must be 20 years old and still perfectly functional, so no.

Their experiment with R4 bonded face fleece (Mixmaster, Core Skin) didn't go well; mine have both delaminated where the adhesive failed. My PowerShield items of the same vintage are still perfectly bonded. Sadly, the adhesive was also the 'engineered membrane', so what was a perfect balance of permeability is now rather breezy.

I used them for niche activities, but you expect fabrics to last until they wear out, so forever, with limited use. I forgot about the glue... Polartec obviously chose a better glue.

 balmybaldwin 15 Sep 2022
In reply to NathanP:

Really? recently tore my fav old shorts on a bit of barbed wire I will go investigate

 steveriley 16 Sep 2022
In reply to MisterPiggy:

Fleece top bought in 1992, made from recycled soda bottles back then. I count that as a pretty low carbon footprint (apart from the flight to get there that is). The pants I bought at the same time I wore all the time, maybe they’d still be going, in a Trigger’s broom sense, if I’d known about their repair guarantee. They’ve been green long before other people’s marketing department suggested that was the smart thing to do.

In reply to steveriley:

The repair guarantee is a relatively new thing (last 10 years or so I believe?). My OH used it when her jacket got ripped when a sign fell off a shop front and nearly klobbered her on the head, bit just glanced her shoulder and ripped the jacket. She had to send it to Portugal, but they repaired and returned. It was a £500 jacket that she'd bought off a friend second hand but fairly new for £50...  (the other person had worked in the Patagonia shop, so got discount and just didn't really fit/get on with the jacket.

 Mike Nolan 16 Sep 2022
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

Since Brexit, repairs are now carried out in 2 UK based repair centres, rather than being sent to the previous repair facility in Portugal. Lots of plans to increase the number of facilities in Europe too, in order to reduce the impact of shipping items to Portugal. 

Post edited at 11:35
 Siward 16 Sep 2022
In reply to steveriley:

I'm full of admiration for the direction Patagonia have taken. Now for the rest of the world...

However I detect severe confirmation bias as far as longevity (as distinct from a repair service) is concerned. More expensive doesn't equate to longer lasting, neither does more ethically sourced. I have 20 year old fleeces that cost a fiver from Tescos.

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In reply to Siward:

Huh?  I think people are syaing - "yes, they're more expensive but they DO" last longer than the average brand.

Your one example of something cheap also lasting a long time doesn't negate the argument - it just means Tesco exploit a lot more people along the way...   Patagonia IS way more ethically sound than Tesco.

2
 NathanP 16 Sep 2022
In reply to balmybaldwin:

> Really? recently tore my fav old shorts on a bit of barbed wire I will go investigate

That might be pushing it but not much more than my case. 20+ year old soft-shell trousers, heavily used for winter & alpine climbing, cold/cool weather hill walking/scrambling and mountain biking. Still in good condition but the novel (and rather unwise) glued pockets eventually fell off - don't think I washed them or tumble-dried them too hot but it was a wash that eventually did for them. I had no receipt and wasn't even sure where I had bought them but I contacted Patagonia, asking if I could pay for a repair and they sent me a post-paid label with an offer to repair them for free and a warning that, since the objective was to prevent functional garments going to landfill, they might not be 100% perfect cosmetically. In fact the repair was excellent - a few stray bits of glue but backed up by immaculate stitching. I was surprised and very impressed.

Post edited at 18:13
 NathanP 16 Sep 2022
In reply to Siward:

> I have 20 year old fleeces that cost a fiver from Tescos.

I have a lot of 20 year old garments that I wear regularly. It is source of constant embarrassment to my 18 year old daughter.

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

Pretty misleading headline isn’t it? The tax bill they cite was if he had sold the company for $3 billion rather than giving it up. Unless I’m missing something, he or his family would have been $2.3 billion better off if he had gone down that route. Isn’t the point of tax dodges usually to end up with more money, not less?

 Jim Hamilton 16 Sep 2022
In reply to Stuart Williams:

I don’t know, once only access!? I thought the gist of the article was the suggestion that the main aim of the arrangement was to keep control of the company within the family, but avoiding a hefty tax hit if it was gifted to them, and some other tax benefits to do with political donations.  The ethics of “beyond the grave” political influence was questioned with mention of some billionaire right winger setting up a similar arrangement earlier in the year.   

 Siward 16 Sep 2022
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

Yes, people are saying.

My point is that it's nonsense. Patagonia don't have access to a special longer lasting fleece! 

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

With a headline of “skirts $700M tax” that chooses not to mention up front that to “skirt” that tax he had to pass on €2.3B it gives me the impression the author has an axe to grind. I could be wrong though and I’ve not looked any further into any of this.

I don’t think YC has made any secret that he wants his vision for the company to live on, and he appears to value that above personal gain. The article seems to just be restating that very public goal as something secretive and scandalous and I’m far from convinced. Especially since the face value intention is consistent with YC’s actions across many years.

Maybe it is all some devious tax avoidance scheme, but that would seem at odds with what I understand about both YC and Patagonia’s behaviour over several decades.


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