Via ferrata with mountaineering equipment

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 Multichain420 27 Jul 2022

Hi

let’s start with an introduction: the following suggestions/questions are exclusively theorical. 
So, suppose your party goes for a long and rather strenuous walk in the Alps, which involves scrambling, glacier walking etc etc. In this case you 

A) Need a rope, harness and al the safety equipment
B) Want to cut off any excess weight as faster=safer.

Now, a (small) part of the hike consists in an easy via ferrata or maybe you find some chains on vertical terrain. You wouldn’t want to carry a VF kit as it’s too heavy and specialized, plus you already know that it’s impossible to achieve complete safety in an alpine environment. Basically you can think of it as an alpine scramble with extra points of protection, ie the cable/chain, the pegs, pigtails etc… What would you do? If you were to pitch it, how would you place protections? I think runners basket-hitched or girth hitched to the metal would do the trick… also quickdraws might have some issues fitting the cable and their rotation in case of a fall could be nasty.
Then, as you get up, how would you belay the second? Munter hitch?

Finally, on the way down, what do you think about lowering your second with a munter hitch and then downclimbing with a sling?

thanks, I hope this will result in an interesting debate

 spenser 27 Jul 2022
In reply to Multichain420:

Clip the stemples and immediately above cable anchors as runners and move together tied into the rope with care about sharp edges around the rope, you will be slow and piss people off so be prepared to learn how effective karabiners are as knuckle dusters if it is any substantial distance or particularly popular. 

1
 Rob Exile Ward 28 Jul 2022
In reply to Multichain420:

When we did the approach to the Couvercle, we found it a full-on VF which we nonetheless solved. With relatively big sacs that was seriously scary. On the way down we moved together roped up on a short rope such that we could hook the rope over the pigtails, so there were always 2 - 3 bits of gear between us. That was as fast  as soloing and made the experience almost pleasurable!

 VictorM 28 Jul 2022
In reply to Multichain420:

Very easy (A-B) I would probably do with slings and a couple of crabs (yes, I'm aware of the risk but I'm also most likely not going to fall off an A or B rated VF). Anything over that probably as described above. 

 AlanLittle 28 Jul 2022
In reply to Multichain420:

Frankly, on easy (A-B) via ferrata my "gear" is gloves for holding on to the cable. Feels more secure to me than the kind of unprotected exposed solo scrambling on choss that you're likely to be doing plenty of anyway on alpine terrain 

If it's proper vertical, exposed harder VF then I'd accept the weight penalty and carry an actual VF kit

Post edited at 08:10
 Martin Hore 28 Jul 2022
In reply to Multichain420:

Possibly you're over-complicating this.  You can treat the VF sections the same as other scrambling sections. The cables / stemples etc just add extra hand and footholds and anchor points which make the scrambling a bit (or a lot) easier than it would be without. So, if, with that extra help, it's a section you are happy to solo, then contemplate soloing it. If it's a section you would normally simul-climb placing runners, do that, using the VF hardware as runner points. If it's a section you would normally pitch (unlikely I think) then pitch it. If soloing, by all means clip to the cable with a static sling. On a horizontal section this will likely protect against a slip. On a vertical section, it can't be relied upon at all, so best not to let it lull you into a false sense of security (ie continuing to solo where you ought to be simul-climbing).

Martin

 CurlyStevo 28 Jul 2022
In reply to Multichain420:

If its easy then normally I'd just solo it. as others have said simu climbing some hard sections could be an option but also could be a bit of a faff. 

PETZL SCORPIO VERTIGO only weighs 380g btw

 gooberman-hill 28 Jul 2022
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Not sure what you mean by a pigtail, but the ladders on the way to the Couvercle now have bolts with in-situ fixed stainless crabs on them, so it is very easy to move together keeping 2-3 bolts between you at all times.

Sadly this new equipage doesn't include a gravity reduction to make the big sacs more manageable...

 tcashmore 28 Jul 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

Great answer

 Rick Graham 28 Jul 2022
In reply to gooberman-hill:

> Not sure what you mean by a pigtail, but the ladders on the way to the Couvercle now have bolts with in-situ fixed stainless crabs on them, so it is very easy to move together keeping 2-3 bolts between you at all times.

A pigtail is probably a glued in bar with a helix/ twirley bit on the end. Means you can thread a rope , wrap clockwise in, anticlockwise out, without untying.

Similar on some sports  lower offs and I recall seeing this system on some exposed paths in the Alps together with explanation signs.

Means two or more can move together with some security , same as the insitu krab system which will have been adopted because its cheaper or more likely easier for Joe / Jean public to understand.

Post edited at 15:36
 Rob Exile Ward 28 Jul 2022
In reply to gooberman-hill:

I can't remember whether there were pigtails on the Couvercle approach or not, if not we will have clipped quick draws to the bolts as we moved together, just stopping when the leader ran out.

I may be getting confused, I have certainly done VFs in France when the cables were anchored by a metal bar the end of which  had been twisted into ... a pigtail! - so as Rick says, you could hook a rope through it and it would be almost - though not quite - as secure as clipping the rope through a quick draw. They were great for backing up lanyards when I used to take the kids up VFs, they'd have been about 10 - 12 years old.

 Jeff Ingman 29 Jul 2022
In reply to Multichain420:

What you're asking about was standard practice in the 70's before VF kit was invented. If there was an exposed ladder section on a hut approach, and you have a big sack on, I used to put my harness on with a couple of slings girth hitched. You could then get a rest or clip in to avoid others.

Today I still use a petzl screamer and 8mm dynamic rope rather than a VF kit, but that's just me - I like my stuff to be multi function and accept the risk. I'm not recommending!

 oldie 29 Jul 2022
In reply to Jeff Ingman:

When alone I used to occasionally place pro, clip into it with a long sling, climb past hard move, and lift it out from above.

Similarly I would also have used a long thin sling clipped to waistband passed as bight through piton eye (big eye needed) and blocked from falling out with krab 2 through bight and clipped to sling 2 from me. After hard move unclip thin sling  from waistband krab and pull thin sling through eye with sling 2 to retrieve. Rather like using a fifi. In fact only ever had to use this to avoid leaving gear seconding tension moves while roped climbing.

Now I'm a bit more educated and know a fall onto nondynamic material would risk breaking the sling and/or breaking me, and should never be recommended. Makeshift waistband not too safe either. However I'd do it again if I had no better gear and if the potential fall would be fatal anyway. It might be OK or I might be able to slump down rather than completely fall...at least I'd have a chance. IIRC a well known climber had a close shave soloing on the Bonatti Pillar when a fifi on his harness caught on a peg.


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