UKH

Planning to run the Welsh 3000s in mid-July. I've been doing a training programme so expect to be reasonably fit for it but for it also to be the hardest thing I've ever attempted.

I want to get a decent lightweight waterproof, a quick search has suggested something like one of the three below:

Rab Phantom

Montane Podium

Innov8 Stormshell 

I'm trying to get my head around the point of these type of jackets and the general risk of doing something like running the W3K, because they are clearly not hugely protective, and I imagine if you're running in them for hours on end you will be soaked in sweat whatever the weather.

I am planning on waiting for a good weather window, and it's going to be summer, but of course I'm aware that weather can turn bad... but how "bad" can it turn from a good weather forecast, in the summer? I suppose it's a balance of risk in terms of:

1) how bad can the weather get from a "good forecast" starting point

2) how much can a super lightweight waterproof protect you from (1) above

3) how quickly can you get out of the situation if (2) is not good enough for the worst case scenario of (1) above!!

In most cases I imagine (without any injuries etc.) that the balance of these risks lets you get down / back to the car without anything too bad happening.

I suppose I'm just musing but would welcome any recommendations for jackets like this, or experiences or these types of things.

In reply to elliot.baker:

It's really rare for a short range forecast to be so wrong as to go from 'nice day' to 'get off the hill now'.

Lightweight jackets will generally be waterproof but if you're working hard in the rain, especially with the hood up,  you will get wet from within. It's easy to stay warm when wet if you keep moving, it's if you have to stop you have a problem so make sure you have spare clothing for that scenario.

In reply to elliot.baker:

For how bad can it get, the "badness" of rhe weather is proportional to your ability to withstand it. If you're out in the hills in pants n a vest, hypothermia is just a matter of time. You'd typically want to be back down and relaxing long before it's getting critical, but the unexpected does sometimes happen - and not just the weather. 

A light waterproof gives you excellent effectiveness to weight ratio for retaining body heat in all manner of circumstances, not just rain.

In so far as which one. They're all a glorified plastic bag. Get the one that compliments your pants or brings out the colour of your eyes. 

In reply to elliot.baker:

I have three jackets I could/might take.

On an amazing forecast, I'd just take a windproof (Arc'Teryx Squamish but others are available, just make sure it's got a nice feel, not the boil in the bag old school pertex type)

On a short race or short run where there could be inclement weather, I'd take the boil in the bag option as per your post (old Berghaus Hypersmock, packs to the size of an apple), it will keep the wind and wet off if required (bonk so end up walking or injury) but I have no intention of actually wearing it.

On a proper outing (distance/terrain/duration) with potential to actually need to wear it I have the OG Mountain Equipment Firefly Smock. Gore-Tex active, a lot nicer to wear, more breathable and fields like more of a "shield" against the elements. 

In reply to galpinos:

I like the look of this Firefly smock but if I search for it one of the first posts is you saying how good it is .... back in 2015! 😂 Think it's been discontinued now... do you know of anything similar (and current)? Good thread though btw (the 2015 one!!!)

In reply to elliot.baker:

I shall replace it with the new version:

https://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/collections/mens-spring-gore-tex/produ...

Though not a smock obvs.

In reply to elliot.baker:

ME have a Firefly jacket in their range this summer.

In reply to More-On:

Thanks both - had seen that but wasn't sure it was the same.

So looking at the weight of the jackets now, from what I've read it's:

Rab Phantom - 90g

Montane Podium - 100g

Inov8 Stormshell - 175g

ME Firefly (jacket) - 200g

Compare these to my 9-10 year old Rab Latok Alpine which is around 550g but felt bomb proof...

I am guessing as you go up the increasing weight scale (above) you go from something that will keep you just about dry from rain, but with perhaps not amazing breathability, up to something... more "protective"? Feature laden? They all have hoods... so it's not that,  though the phantom is just elasticated and the firefly has velcro sleeves and a hood drawcord on the back.

Just thinking out loud but in some threads on here people complain about the type of waterproof zip on the firefly because it can leak - that would be a bonus point to the smock / pullover type (phantom and podium).

Tricky decisions...

In reply to elliot.baker:

The ultralight ones are basically for emergency use, so on the off chance of a shower or to pass a race kit check. They're great for that but for regular use I'd go for something a bit heavier. At 200g something like the firefly is still really light but will last longer and give better performance in regular use.

In reply to elliot.baker:

I have used in anger (for running around hills) a Marmot Essence jacket and the Inov8 Stormshell. The former was an early precip version and was very good at keep rain out but less successful as letting steam out. Am sure it's come a long way since that. I had it for around 10 years so ended up being fairly durable too despite being around 200g.

I've since then upgraded to a Stormshell and it feels like a million times more breathable. The stretch is about right and the hood is really good/ adjustable enough for my pea sized heid or for use with a cap. I've used it in both persistent rain and pretty squally Scottish summer weather. So far no complaints to be voiced. I can't comment on the durability yet as not been as active of late.

One comment to make on your list is that it's worth looking at jackets that are designed for running rather than just a lightweight shell if that is going to be the jackets main use going forwards. 

Personally I find running in light rain wearing a cap and a Vapour Rise or LS tech T+ultralight windproof to be fine. As long as you are moving I find that it strikes the right balance between warmth/wetness/comfort. 

In reply to elliot.baker:

If you've not seen it before, you might get some ideas from ultralightoutdoorgear - you can filter by smock/jacket and the default ordering is by weight which I dont think I've seen on any other website.

https://ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/mens-waterproof-shell/

I have 2 running waterproof jackets

a) Lightweight - Arcteryx Norvan SL, Goretex ShakeDry, 122g

b) Heavier - Inov8 Protec Shell, Pertex Shield Pro, 360g

In reply to elliot.baker:

Alpkits gravitas probably a good medium. I think the Superlight under 100g shells are really only for emergency use - not because they aren't waterproof (they all are) but because the construction is just such a compromise as to make them unpleasant and not super durable long term.

Money no object I'd buy a gore r7 shakedry. As it is, I have a Berghaus hyper that's pretty good but if the rain is all day I'd always take a proper shell - a circa 250-350g 3l active shell that can take having a pack on all day 

Oh, and if using for mountain use size them so you can get a vest under, not over. 

In reply to elliot.baker: If on your planned day for this it's pee'ing with rain and planning to do so all the time then you might need a more substantial waterproof.  Else these will get you off the hill to a car park.  Remember you're meant to be running , so you'll be wet anyway

In reply to elliot.baker:

I have a full set of podium, super light and comfortable to wear and they are surprisingly good. I used it for the snowdon ultra in the snow this April and I was comfortable with just a Allez hoody underneath. They seem fairly breathable, although always hard to tell when running as you’re going to get wet either way but they were warm and comfortable and light, and pack down tiny. The hood fits very well too. I sozed up for a slightly looser fit as they don’t stretch and it gives good coverage. 
 

only downside would be durability if you’re rubbing up against bushes and rocks, but that’s not what it’s designed for. Also you can see through them so you get less drag from the light 😜

In reply to elliot.baker:

If I'm heading out with no bag and I think there's a chance of a shower I'll put an OMM Sonic Smock (48g) in my pocket. It will survive a light rain shower, but in truly bad weather it only serves as a delaying measure to give you time to get off the hill 

If I'm heading out with the expectation of pushing through inclement weather, I'll pack a Montane Minimus jacket (188g). In general I prefer full-zip to smock because it's easier to put on/take off and easier to ventilate. Sometimes I will pack the trousers too (150g) but I don't think I've ever worn them (main reason to pack them is to meet race requirements).

You need to ask yourself:

What weather conditions will you be prepared to go out in?

If those conditions get SLIGHTLY worse, do you want clothing that will sustain you so you can carry on? Or do you just want something to get you off the hill?

If those conditions get MUCH worse, and/or you get lost or have an accident, do you have adequate protection or an alternative plan (e.g. support crew)?