UKH

Hi

Yesterday I was abseiling an overhanging face. In thick Rab guide gloves. The ropes were iced up. I could not control the descent.

I switched to a thinner pair of gloves for the next 5 abseils and all was good.

In the past I've also had problems controlling a descent with aid gloves on.

So, if I'm having difficulty getting enough force between glove and rope when abseiling, I'm not really offering much of a belay the rest of the time? 

Anyone else thought about how effective or not many winter gloved belays might be? I'm now kind of worried. 

When my ropes were iced I've used Italian (munter) hitch and with doubled ropes that's a lot of friction. I've used dachstein mitts (not so grippy) and more modern.. extremities mitts with a leather palm (more grippy) and found it to be ok. Same with belays, when ropes were icy nasty ******* I belayed with an Italian hitch or waist belay from sitting while still wearing rucksack if snow plodding. Dunno if I did textbook correct approach but it worked for my small experience.

Sounds like you had a bit of an epic!!

What rope, belay device, gloves etc did you have?

Edit: Italian isn't great for ropes

In the few times I've had to deal with iced ropes the issue has been getting the ropes into the belay device and making them move rather than the other way around.

Same... and why I was using the Italian hitch when rope frozen

Not icy but wet ropes, I deal with on a regular basis and friction is reduced that way making abseil either free fall or grab and little in-between. The rope abusing Italian seems to be far more even behaviour wet or dry, so a good plan B if having problems in wet.

I use ATC and use it backwards (i.e. don't use the grooves for the braking side) when abseil ropes dry and correct way round with the grooves on braking side  when wet rope. With a petzl stop just ordinary when rope is dry and clipped in petzl Freino extra friction when wet. 

If abseil with Grigri, petzl actually recommend using a Freino, so if that's what you were using consider getting one

Years ago when I did a lot more winter climbing, I had similar thoughts. I reverted to using an old stitch plate - one of the ones with a flat plate and a spring.  These are much more "grabby" than a modern device such as an ATC.    

Maybe use a redirect karabiner on your leg loop to put the control ropes through and hold the ropes above this. Puts an extra bend in the rope so more friction

Some time ago there was an article in Summit mentioning how gloves reduced braking ability. The main author did later say in a thread here that there was a big "but" around this since in a severe fall the belayer would not be able to hold onto the rope due to rope burn if too much rope ran through the plate. 

As you mention in winter everyone belays with gloves including clumsy Dachsteins. This does seem a worry though one doesn't hear much about people being unable to hold falls in winter....perhaps many falls are less severe and on lower angled ground, or possibly people do use grippier gloves or other ways of increasing friction, 2 krabs etc., if a severe fall is likely. 

I was quite surprised to see that in ice climbing the DAV recommends a direct belay using an ATC type device on the ice screw anchor with an early runner or "redirect" on the the brake side. Standplatzübersicht VDBS DAV 2020 

In the past i've been very grateful to the v-notches on an old Simond Cubic.  These days if the ropes are icy I'll stick an extra krab on the plate.  Not had a problem with a petzl 3 though

Had you just done Crack Baby? Was it as amazing as it looks?

What system were you using for abing? I've had some dicey moment with ice coated ropes in the past in Finland - very different from just frozen ropes in Scotland. I remember having to hastily put wraps round my thigh to get more friction in the system.

Extra karabiner always does the trick for me Dave. Again it all depends on how thin the iced ropes are and you type of braking device. I also nearly always have two sets of gloves with me, usually a thinner pair for tricky fiddly tasks. You can usually lock off you prussik to add the extra biner.

Good piccies!

Yes Crack Baby. Truly amazing. 

Dmm pivot extended. Standard, not French prusik. If I'd have used a French, I'd be dead. 

From the comments above, I'm now going to use two krabs for belaying when wearing gloves. 

Thanks everyone 

Yep, agree 2 crabs works best and I use the big Oval shaped ones to allow stiff frozen ropes have right amount of flow and friction to do the job and allow you to jiggle the set up around if you have to during the rap.

If you're shitting your pants in this situation throw a couple of wraps round your thigh.

Then again, not much abbing on the Eiger Dave!

Yep. I was also talking about belaying. And this is where I was most worried. If I am struggling to hold the ropes on ab, I can't see how I'm offering a solid belay. 

Even if the ropes are dry, belaying with gloves seems less effective than I had thought 

If the rope is through a few quickdraws so that friction hopefully, will absorb energy and make breaking easier. Also the more rope out to soak up that force, so less effort required for holding the icy ropes. So hopefully not really a problem when actually belaying, as opposed to abbing. You can still insert an extra karabiner if in doubt.

Looking forward to your talk.

Hi Sean, I'm not sure I quite agree with you. 

Most falls seem to need holding with as least as much force from the hand as abseiling. I'm taken by the idea of heading to the wall and getting some test FF0.5 falls in, held with gloves and mitts. If I can't easily hold FF0.5 with dry ropes and gloves, I'm going to start to worry big time.