UKH

At a house I rent out I recently had a inexplicable gas leak. The agents got someone in to fix it and then today I got a bill for £300. This seems pretty steep and I was wondering if anyone here has an opinion as to whether this seems reasonable.

The leak was in feed to an old (recently serviced and working but never used) gas fire, at an accessible joint between lead and copper piping. The tenant called the distributor when they smelt gas and they found the leak.

The gas "engineer" arrived, didn't have a fitting to fix the initial problem so pulled up the floor in the hall and capped off the lead pipe where it came from a copper pipe, rending the fireplace inoperable. He then left without checking that he'd actually also cut off the cooker. He then returned and somehow re connected the cooker.

He's broken the invoice down as £160 for the initial visit and then £140 for the second visit which shouldn't have been necessary IMO.

What do people think? I'm guessing I've no way to challenge any of this.

ps. this is in South Wales not any silly South East pricing

All sounds very reasonable to me you ask what the cost of gas work is  get it wrong it’s a life and death thing 

TBH I'm not at all surprised at the cost, disclaimer, I'm not a gas engineer or anything, have just dealt with many such services

The part that irks me really is not the initial visit but the second visit that shouldn't really have been necessary if he'd done his job correctly and the fact that I'm paying for his mistakes.

 If your barrister representing you in court fails to get you off on the first hearing but succeeds on Appeal would you expect to pay for the second ?

What a terrible analogy.

The gas fitter didn't do the job properly the first time, cutting off the cooker along with the fireplace just because they didn't have a fitting to isolate the pipe where there was a leak.

How about, if you paid someone to repair the front brakes on your car and they returned it without working rear brakes. Would you expect to pay for them to repair the rear brakes?

 That’s a terrible analogy 

Here’s why I had a new brake master cylinder put on my car  I had to take it back a week after the seals in the back brakes and all failed the mechanic explained it’s the higher pressures in the new master cylinder

 I should also say that my life was working perfectly until I was incarcerated because of the incompetence of my barrister in the first trial 

 It comes down to this had you not asked for a breakdown of invoice  you would not of known of two charges and had the disconnection been discovered on the first visit it would’ve been rectified on the first visit and the time would’ve been charged   you haven’t said if travel and time standard minimums were applied to the second visit  

Profit is not a dirty word

Have you paid the invoice?

I can empathise, but what was the gas engineer actually asked to do initially?

Seems to me to be situation is complicated by two parties involved besides the tenant - the Agent (essentially you if they have authority to act for you) and the Distributor.

From my one and only experience of a gas leak the latter insisted on disconnection first, and ask questions later. Didn’t matter what else was being supplied. In fact do they not actually disconnect and it’s up to the house owner (Agent in your case) to rectify and then obtain authorisation for a reconnection (likely to be a second visit)?

Unless you know what the gas engineer was instructed to do by the Agent and/or Distributor it’s hard to query what necessitated two visits without speaking to them. My understanding is the gas engineer has to wait until any reconnection is authorised by the distributor. He may never have been told there was any other appliances involved and that the supply would need to be reconnected.

In my case the distributor disconnected whole supply to home and gas engineer had to fix leak first and before they were authorised for the gas to be turned on again.

It might have been impossible for the gas engineer to see that capping off the pipe in the way he did would also cut off the gas supply to the cooker.

However, I think he should have tested any other gas appliance to make sure they were still working.

If he had done this then perhaps he would have been able to reconnect the gas to the cooker during the first visit.

You probably can't do much about it other than make it clear to the agents you are not happy. It might have no effect but perhaps the agents might reconsider who they use in the future.

Dave

Annoyingly, due to "Rent Smart Wales", the gift from the Welsh Government that keeps on giving, I'm mandated to use an agent who charges me ~£1000 a year for doing very little. They pick up the invoices and pay them directly out of the rent before it reaches me.

The agents will have paid it and put on 20% handling fee but that’s alright because they’re professionals

The distributor found the leak and then yes, as you said, capped off the supply as they are not allowed to do work on customer owned equipment.

The plumber was instructed to repair the leaking joint.

I've just spoken to the tenant and he said that the plumber had said that everything was tested and working after the first visit which lasted ~90 mins including him leaving to visit a supplier.

He came back the next day (Saturday), couldn't fix the issue he'd created and left them without gas in the kitchen until Monday when he returned and did ~75 mins work.

I'd challenge it. It's understandable that they couldn't leave situation dangerous, but if the second visit was due to a mistake then you shouldn't pay. Imagine if you'd paid £160 after first, for capping off just fire, and then found they had cut all supply. They'd come back and fix without billing.

I fear this may be the case. Letting and estate agents rate somewhere around people knocking off grannies for their pensions in my opinions after recent experiences.

If everything was tested and working ….  but the cooker wasn’t! Doesn’t make sense; more questions need to be asked if you want to take it further.

Problem is if Agent has full authority to act for you, they are not going to get involved voluntarily especially as they have done what they needed to do and have had their reimbursement already. 

Good luck dealing with the agent; their comments on their involvement would be interesting. Maybe also worth speaking to the actual person who did the work if it’s possible to hear their view if you want to understand more? However, if he didn’t do what he should have or did something wrong, he’s not likely to admit to anything.

You’ll have to weight up if the extra £140 is worth the hassle depending on what info you find. Something to remember though if nothing else if you are able to change agents in future!

Exactly, the plumber said everything was tested and working.... but it wasn't, tested or working.

I've emailed the plumber with a polite "could you please give me a breakdown of the invoice as it appears to be rather more than the simple repair I was expecting" and we'll see what he says. I doubt I'll get anywhere with it and the agents have already paid the invoice. It's oh so easy to pay invoices and not check things when it's someone else's money you're paying with.

If the barrister was negligent in the first hearing and failed, for example, to bring up a crucial piece of evidence, then no, I wouldn't.

Sticking just to an important technical point, it is not legal to repair or join to lead gas pipe work. 
Existing in good condition may be left in use but cannot be jointed or altered in any way.

Assuming the leak was on a section of lead pipe work, which sounds likely from your description the engineer would have no option but to cut the carcass at the first accessible point upstream where it converted from copper.

Depending what was instructed/ asked for would effect what work was carried out. If it was purely to make the carcass safe, then a subsequent instruction to repair/ replace cooker carcass it seems very reasonable. As an aside the prices seem very reasonable for gas work within a tenanted property.

Hope that is helpful

Chris

Hi Chris, 

Thanks for your input, this is contra to what I have been told. I have been informed that so long as it's in good condition you can joint to lead so long as it's accessible and the correct method is used.

To clarify my situation. The lead pipe came from a large 28 mm copper pipe installed when I had a new boiler fitted, this then split to feed both the kitchen and the fire. After the split the feed to the kitchen returned to copper before entering the kitchen and being connected to the cooker. The feed to the fireplace changed to copper in the utility room before feeding the fire. All quite complicated but all done by supposed professionals and all inspected repeatedly. The joint in the utility room is where the leak occurred. Not sure how as it's 8 foot off the ground and nowhere near anywhere it could be damaged and the gas certificate was done about a month ago where a drop test was done.

The plumber I'm annoyed with cut the lead where it came from the 28 mm copper without checking that it fed the kitchen. And essentially because he didn't have the correct fitting. It's not like there are loads of plumbing merchants in Swansea.

Out of interest was a new joint made to the lead pipe?

Or did they rerun to the cooker in copper?

You are not allowed to repair/ joint lead gas pipe

The cost seems perfectly in line with what I would expect for an emergency type call out.

Also given he didn’t have the correct fitting what do you want him to do? He can either isolate the whole gas supply, leave the thing belching gas into the house or fix it in the best way he can returning later to instigate a full fix (which sounds like exactly what he did.)

Whether you can ‘challenge’ it is between you and the contract with the agents but personally I wouldn’t be griping over 300 quid when they’ve rectified a dangerous/potentially fatal gas leak.

The whole run to the cooker is now in copper. They took a spur off the boiler supply and connected it to the copper cooker supply that was already right next to it.

I think it sounds very expensive but that's probably because he was called out for an emergency job. It's the sort of thing that would cost next to nothing if the engineer was already out with you for something else and happened to notice the problem (in fact, something very similar happened to me in this situation, and the guy fixed it for free). But emergency call outs in my experience are always very expensive. They are also, presumably, aimed just at fixing the immediate problem rather than worrying about anything else. So I think you are slightly unlucky but it's not surprising.

Edit, given the extra complexities identified below by Chris, perhaps not expensive after all.

That’s sounds good, was concerned they had jointed the lead.

From what you describe it sounds totally reasonable, 

- engineer attends gas leak, not allowed to fix lead pipe where leak is( old lead pipe can fail unexpectedly) , therefore caps off at first available point in copper leaving boiler running.

- engineer returns with correct fittings to reconnect cooker in the most logical / shortest way from boiler run in copper.

In gas safety terms as a landlord you have now considerably reduced your risk as you have disconnected the open flue and old gas fire and eliminated a section of old lead gas pipe. Remember as a landlord you have direct personal responsibility for gas safety in your rented properties. Strongly recommend completely removing the gas fire and blocking the fireplace.(assuming full central heating from gas boiler) As for costs go sounds ok, particularly where an agent is involved. I would also thank your tenant for calling in the smell of gas, not something that always happens.

Stay safe

Chris

Could I ask if or when any rules on joining to lead changed. Just because circa 2012 someone supposedly qualified to do so soldered a few joints lead to copper.

Sorry don’t know the date regs changed, but it has changed over time. It has been best practice to remove lead when/ where practical for as long as I have been doing gas, but the prohibition of working on lead gas pipes is more recent.

I am aware many customers think it odd that lead passes a Landlord Gas Safety Report, but as the pipe work is historic it can be left/ passed if in good condition for inspection purposes.

As I said earlier the fact as landlord you have reduced your gas liabilities is nothing but a good thing.

Chris

I have a plumbing and heating business and have been to many gas emergencies. I suspect the engineer was asked to attend and make safe (which is usually the case). I don’t carry any fittings for lead so I would’ve been in the same boat. If the tenant had of rang the gas emergency response number, they would’ve turned up and capped it at the meter, so no gas to the whole property. As far as the cost goes, it sounds reasonable. Some companies charge a call out for all emergencies. Others, only for out of hours. If this was done out of hours you may have got a bargain.