UKH

Looks like we can go to EU for 90 days at a pop. But our friends in the EU will be able to come here for 180.

Right. Poles apart

frankly if you wanted equality and fairness perhaps you shouldn't have voted to leave. sorry if you didn't but its a bit rich complaining about how  447.4 million people treat us when we walked away from an entirely equitable union. 

What about Czechs?

The Brexiteers were told there'd be border Czechs.

Situation considerably more wank for British people post-Brexit than before it, in other news; sky blue, water wet, bear spotted shitting in woods, pope confirms they are a catholic etc etc etc

It was a pun on 'Poles'

I suspect mutt was commenting on the OP. You were just collateral damage...

I would love to worry about only having 90 days in Europe a year let alone 180! My best is 14 days in 2 years.

The bear was catholic?

Right, I know 

I was trying to get "Slovakia" into a pun too, but failed

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?t=719678&v=1#x9209253

You had a chance to do something about it. Too late now.

Perhaps it's not all about you.

I didn't see that. I was just incredulous when I found out.

If it hadn't been for the coronavirus limiting movement I would in most liklihood have emigrated. 

Feel sullied, ashamed and embarrassed to be English. 

And this is just the cherry on the top. Like it's the government giving the deliberate finger to europhiles. 

Eh???

I wonder what in my post makes you think I voted leave. Perhaps you think my use of the expression 'our friends' is used ironically. Not so.

I am the the rejoiners rejoiner.

I have no complaint with the EU. My only complaint is with this shit show of a government which as I see it know there in forever (Labour can't win without Scotland) and have got their snouts firmly in the trough and intend to keep them there.

There, got that off my chest. Just so deeply and increasingly f... Ed off with the whole thing. 

Unfortunately more than half the people who live in the UK voted for a situation that suggest we don't have any real interest in going too Europe or being part of it.

So 90 days is probably too much for most.

Those in the EU didn't vote, so why restrict them at all? They may still want to travel more, and generally more happy to mix with the wider world.

I personally want to be free to travel, see other cultures and traditions as much as physically possible, and generally try and live on a bigger happier planet. Unfortunately I am part of the minority in the UK.

I don’t think you are part of a minority. Also I don’t think most people who voted leave would say they don’t want those things. 
my father in law voted leave and precovid had spent 50% of his retirement seeing other cultures and traditions as physically possible. 
 

While I agree with most of your post, the part about 'Labour can't win without Scotland' is not really accurate.

The last 3 General elections Where Labour got in were won with majority's greater than the total number of seats in Scotland (2 of them with 2-3x as big)

2 of the last 4 general elections would have still been conservative wins if every seat in Scotland had went to Labour.

In 2010 when the Tories got back in, Scotland voted Labour and got a Tory government because that is what England voted for.

Scotland also voted heavily (62%) against Brexit and it didn't matter.

It's far more accurate to say that What ever England votes for, Scotland will get regardless of how they vote.

Then it comes down to reasons of why Scotland should vote labour to suit England rather than vote for the party of their own choice?
 

I do dimly remember about a joke about a cleaning woman who took 8 hours to hoover a small room, because she was a Slovak. 

I've heard the pope's  been known to shit in the woods. 

Coronavirus has only been a problem for a year.

I get bored with people saying that they 'would have done such-and-such.'

increasingly I feel this . I’ve been shot down for not accepting UKC as social media , so accepting that it is , the only social media that I read is on the whole I  think , very pro Europe . I believe my circle of friends are also to a person pro Europe . Outside of that I think there is slow and very uncomfortable realisation among everybody else I encounter that voting for brexit  was a mistake . Some days it makes me say out loud “ so what the f£@k did you think would happen ?” . The other day I was chatting to the manager of a large independent diy / building supplies shop. We get along quite well and he often helps me out . He was saying ( I’ve no idea if this is true ) that the  cost of shipping a container from China had gone through the roof . I also have no idea if it’s related to Brexit / virus / the price of fish but I started to rant  about “what the f£&k did people expect  etc and concluded with ....the problem was most people didn’t think beyond ....( edits out racist insult that could be misinterpreted ) “ I realised that he was looking at his shoes the whole time and nodding in tacit agreement .  Yet again I  realised I live in a little bubble .

that is overstating it - it was far less than half of the people in the UK

but it was a successful putsch by a mad sect

Dragging it back (briefly?) to the OP, I believe that, in practical terms for most folk, there isn't that much difference in the UK v EU travel entitlements.  EU residents can visit the UK, visa-free, for up to 180 days in any one 12 month period.  UK residents can visit the EU (Schengen area) for up to 90 days in an one 180 day period - so in effect, up to 180 days per year as well.

90 days per 180 is obviously less flexible than a simple 180 day limit but unless you want to spend more than 3 continuous months on a trip, in which case you're a very lucky git, I think it should be workable.  The 180 day period is a "rolling" one, starting on the first day of a visit, and the EU has provided a helpful (?) calculator for working out how much of your entitlement you have used, and how much you have left in any one period - https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/content/visa-calculator_en

There's a good article in the Independent covering a lot of post-Brexit stuff -

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/travel-after-brexit-eu...

and it gives an example  "if you spend January, February and March in the Schengen Area (totalling 90 days), then you must leave the zone before 1 April and cannot return until 30 June. 

You will then be able to spend the summer in Europe until 27 September, when you must leave again. You may not come back until Boxing Day."

It's also worth pointing out that the 90/180 rule is a whole-EU provision, and the Independent article also talks about possibly being able to get a longer stay visa for an individual EU country (eg for second-home owners, or folk wanting to spend the whole winter in Spain) - doubtless an expensive, bureaucratic mess, but maybe helpful for some folk.

None of this changes the facts that it's now a lot worse than we had, but maybe not the end of decent sunrock trips.

Cheers, Andy

Might be tough on those who want to spend time in EU, but possibly one advantage is having EU tourists staying longer and spending more money in UK. I'm happy for them to come whenever (and never wanted to leave EU in the first place).

Duh, there was only a year to make the decision and get it all sorted. So shove, and I am trying my best to be civilised, your boredom where the sun doesn't shine. 

Knowledgeable and informative as always. 

Not just one bear. According to Andrew, they are all catholic

Thanks for explaining the real rule that the OP completely failed to describe, saves me having to go off and Google it. On the basis of this, I'd have to say the OP is about as close to the definition of splitting hairs as you can get. I think the number of people in the general UK population whose plans would seriously disrupted by 90 in 180 days vs 180 days in 1 year must be miniscule and for this small number of people it's almost certainly solved by applying for a visa. There are plenty of very valid and good reasons why brexit was a bad idea, maybe the OP would consider starting a thread about one of them instead!?

Elsewhere in this thread there seems to be a false equivalence repeatedly being drawn between wanting to visit another country and wanting the UK to be closely linked to that country to allow free-trade, free movement of people, combined budget and political systems, etc. etc.

I'd love to go and see Iran at some point and look at all the ancient remains, do some climbing, discover the culture, etc. etc. But I don't think it would be a good idea to be in an economic union with Iran, have freedom of movement between our countries and have a joint government.

Being in the EU is not in any way equivalent to wanting to be able to visit the EU. It's perfectly logical and consistent to be against the former and for the latter.

(And, I voted remain and still think remain before I get written off as just another brexiteer)

Brexit has been going on for four and a half years now.

"More than half" - nowhere near. The actual number who voted to leave was well below 50% of voters, let alone the population as a whole. More a case of the tail wagging the dog - and a pretty shitty tail at that.

If a person wants to stay longer, in say Spain, I believe one can apply for a 12 month visa, and I guess if you had this one would then be free to roam within Schengen. I suppose we are going to have learn to live with this. But its all a bit moot with Covid going on.

http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consulados/WASHINGTON/en/Consulado/Pages/Visas...

You can stay in non schegen countries for 90 days without it coming off your 90 Days EU entitlement. 

I was also thinking of the possibility of flying into Bulgaria(non schengen) and travelling by road into Greece, no border checks last time I travelled, spending time in Greece then returning via Bulgaria without losing any of your EU 90 days.

Any thoughts? 

Hi Steve

I've not dug into it too deeply but, sadly, I don't think it works like that.  The Independent article I linked to says "Note that a long-stay permit for a specific EU country does not mean that you are entitled to spend more than 90 days in 180 in other Schengen Area nations."

But I'm not sure that's much of a problem?  If you've gone to the expense and trouble of getting a longer stay visa for eg Spain, it's presumably because you're planning on spending a lot of time there, and you'd still have up to 180 days (6 months!) available in that year for the other Schengen countries.

Chance would be a fine thing!

Cheers, Andy

Is there maybe something one could do with going Hungary?

Or the disparity being Spainful?

Ich werde mein mantel holen

I think Andys article in the Independent addresses that.

 

Can’t I just nip across a border and ‘re-set the clock’?

No. For the avoidance of doubt, the 90-day limit is not per country. It applies to the entire Schengen Zone. 

If you leave the zone (for example by returning to the UK or crossing from Slovenia into Croatia) that exit will be recorded on the central database.

When you return, the frontier officials will check to see how much of your allowance has been used and calculate how much remains.

The average Brectum only goes to Europe for their annual 2 weeks in Benidorm or Magaluf, and that’s it. They don’t care about wider travel, educational or career opportunities (probably because their career planning involved leaving school with no qualifications then deciding between factory floor or building site), and couldn’t care less if it inconveniences those who wanted to remain. 

Apologies. I fear we have got to make the best of it now though. 90 days is actually quite a long time, but for those who need more could perhaps seek residency. I wonder if they would become stuck in another EU country though. Personally I have always had the option of working in the EU and it never really appealed to me. Perhaps in a few years I'd have liked to move to somewhere a bit warmer and I'm sure many european contries would appreciate me spending my pension there. I can't ever imaging having a 90 day holiday in the EU.

best to try and live in the new world even if it is less good than the old. Raging about the lies isn't actually going to make any difference. 

Oh boo hoo. It was a satirical comment.

Slovak is pretty good - I missed it - darn* it, you got me there

*PS, almost the first part of "Danube", grasping at straws here

Just because you and disgusted of Tunbridge Wells don't want to know about Camembert cheese or German beer doesn't give you the right to ride roughshod over one single persons opportunities. Enough ranting and pressure from the voting population and the UK government will back-pedal so much that Brexit looks just like be8ng in the EU, the agreement hasn't been signed and is still being negotiated.

And that, my friend, is the attitude, that in all probability, cost you the vote.
You are clearly unaware that if you continually insult people, and there was a lot of it at the time, they'll turn round and say 'F*ck you!'

Yeah right.  It's all because they're sensitive little souls, rather than wanting to get foreigners out or believing in some bollocks about sovereignty. 

As a solid remain voter I'd agree. It's a painful irony those who are insulting brexit voters as all being idiots are being idiotic and such attitudes almost certainly helped swing the vote.

I know plenty of brexit voters who were not racist and fully recognised we need large numbers of immigrant labour. As a solid remain voter I shared some of their sensible annoyance with the EU but unlike them felt we were better off inside the EU working for reform, especially so given the rise of populism and cracks opening up in prospects for world peace.

Sure most racists and little englanders would also have voted brexit but they are a small minority of the UK vote. 

Boris only got his huge majority for his version of the brexit deal because in the face of more votes for progressive parties and plenty of progressive 'wet' tory voters, all those much better educated progressives couldn't bring themselves to work together and vote tactically.

My point is that between Bulgaria and Greece there is no border control to speak of. 

Totally agree. Also I think I have read somewhere that you only need to get a new passport to get around the ban the 12 month ban. Its not you as such they ban, but your passport. 

I have friends who do that and few other tricks. Only thing is, if a bored Police officer in Greece, or one at the Greek-Bulgaria border, have a look at your passport and notices you don't have a stamp for entering/exiting Schengen they can give you a bit of grief. (You will effectively be an illegal immigrant)

Reportedly some smiles, hand waving and playing the dumb tourist that didn't know the country was/wasn't in Schengen or that you were supposed to get a stamp normally gets you sent on your way with a verbal warning.

There certainly is at the moment!

I'm not sure that the brexit deal is going to be influenced by ranting Jim, I think its more likely that the government realise what a clusterFck the whole notion of being independent would be without an agreement. they may give lip service to the un/concious xenophobes who voted for brexit but I think anyone with half a brain can see that trade agreements with polynesian islands isn't going to compensate for a failed agreement with the EU But by all means rant if you want to.

I would have seen my wife more than twice last year without Coronavirus.

I would have seen my children for more than 12 hours each last year if it weren't for Coronavirus.

I wouldn't be facing the same situation again this year if ...

I could go on, but wouldn't want to bore you further. 

Coronavirus is a very serious problem - it affects everybody, me included.

Sorry Dan, but I think you might find that Greece is tightening up. Big fines for overstayers in the pipeline.

Trying to rationally explain why they were wrong didn’t work; Expert analysis? Who needs experts, it’s just protect fear! Statistics and projections? Nah,  taking back control, innit! Reasonable discussions about the many benefits of staying in? Don’t be unpatriotic! 
There’s only so long you can go on trying to be civil with that sort of wilfully ignorant person before giving up and addressing them like the utter dross that they are. 
The only consolation is knowing that they’ll be the ones hardest hit by the post-Brexit fallout, which serves them right. 

....those who need more could perhaps seek residency..... Perhaps in a few years I'd have liked to move to somewhere a bit warmer and I'm sure many european contries would appreciate me spending my pension there.

I'm afraid you might have missed the boat there. Have you any idea of the difficulties of "gaining residency" in EU countries since January?

That's because of covid, nothing to do with brexit. 

And?

Hahaha, great rant fella
I'm not commenting on the pros or cons of Brexit, or who knows what about everything, or bullshit lies etc. just nutjobs like you who totally f*cked up the remain campaign with your arrogance.  With what was essentially a marginal constituency election, somewhere around 1.2% swing would have been a dead heat.
You screwed up, you and your ilk, handed it to Leave. Similar to all the Corbyn haters that we have on this forum.

I could go on, but it would be utterly pointless.

Meaning once covid settles down I very much doubt there will be a strict border control between Bulgaria and Greece. 

Lots of stuff on the internet to suggest otherwise!

 https://murciatoday.com/-90-day-maximum-stay-in-spain-post_brexit-subject-o... a random example.

I would imagine there are many thousands of Brits  (especially in non Covid times) who over winter/travel round Europe (boats and vans) but don't want to become an EU resident, and whose plans will be seriously disrupted.  Long stay visas don't look as though they will be a panacea.     

Well Bulgaria is planned to join Schengen next year anyway so we shall see. Since you can only visit Bulgaria visa-free for the same 90 days in 180 I can't see where the benefit is, either you overstay the Schengen visa or your Bulgarian permission.

I know of lots including us. My social group are pretty much all retiring about now and loads were expecting to have the flexibility to roam and stay in bits of Europe as took their fancy. Travelling slowly and staying put is actually the environmentally sound way to travel - but now it'll be back to scurrying around counting days.

The right to just travel down and overwinter somewhere warm in retirement without being a rich snowbird, was one of the great perks that millions of ordinary people have enjoyed for the passed 30 or 40 years. 

The advantage is the time you spend in Bulgaria does not come out of your 90 day EU quota. 

So in theory you could fly to Bulgaria cross into Greece for say 89 days, then return to Bulgaria and fly to Spain for another 90 day stay. This is assuming your passport is not checked at the bulgaria/Greece border. 

That strikes me as quite an assumption,

Chris

And illegal. Greek prisons aren't real nice and Bulgarian ones have their own reputation but more realistically you'd get a 10 year ban on entering the EU.

Only if you stay in Bulgaria for 3 months.

You'd probably get away with it if nothing's changed.....until you come into contact with the law, or require hospital.

If your passport is checked then so be it, it scuppers the second part of your trip, but you've broken no laws. 

If its not checked who's to know how long you've spent in Greece. 

The time you spend in Greece you are not breaking the law, so why the issue with the law or hospitals? 

The vast, vast majority of people don't go on holiday for 90 days on a stretch.  Those who can are in a very privileged position.  And things like living abroad and work are niche enough that they'd say "well, if I wanted to do it then I'd just apply for a residence permit" - as indeed I had to do when I worked in Switzerland for a couple of years (being non-EU).

I didn't vote for Brexit but I can certainly see why the majority of people who did don't think these things are any sort of issue.

Simply not true. Over the years, millions of retired people have spent longer than 90 days at a time travelling in their caravans, campervans or boats, let alone those who have bought / rented somewhere. 

You seem very certain of that. If that's the case why bother seeking opinions about your plans to enter Greece via Bulgaria, (avoiding border checkpoints)?

I think you might have an inkling that 'getting away with not having your passport checked at the border' doesn't necessarily mean that in any subsequent interactions with Greek authorities they'll not be interested in how you entered their country and how long you've been there.

If you are retired and can afford to do that abroad, you are privileged.  Someone who has only the state pension and lives in a rented Council flat is simply not in a position to do that.

If you look at the typical demographic of younger Brexit voters (older ones would tend to be more privileged and well-off, e.g. my parents), this becomes clear.

I'm not certain of anything, and these aren't my plans, just throwing a few ideas around, it's what discussion forums are for. 

I'd tend to agree with that. I think people (particularly those on this forum) don't appreciate that there's a huge chunk of the population of the UK who haven't, (and never would have, for various reasons), benefitted from free movement.

Other than a fortnight's holiday once a year, anywhere outside the UK may as well be on the moon, in terms of getting a job or living for an extended period, to a lot of people.

Fair enough.

Lots of people found it cheaper to live in a caravan on the site in Benidorm than heat any house over winter in the UK. If needs be, you also had the right to take part time work to help your pension.

Making out that it's only the privileged that have lost their rights to live and work in Europe is a nonsense. Lots of ordinary people took advantage of and relished the opportunity.

In reply to dan gibson:

• Enter Greece from non-Schengen country (eg UK/Bulgaria). Passport scanned. Schengen clock starts ticking. Stay 89 days.
• Leave Greece into Bulgaria. Passport scanned again. Schengen calculator registers 89 in (a running) 180 day period
• Fly immediately to Spain. Passport scanned. Schengen clock starts ticking again (with 1 day to spare).
• Leave Spain. Passport scanned. Schengen registers >90 in 180. Large fine and/or denied future entry into EU.

That's how it now works.

There was a fair bit of that, to be fair.  Though a lot of the pro-Remain economic arguments were delivered with a certainty that is probably not deserved, and the faces of Brexit presented in the pro-Remain media tended to be caricatures.

But the problem was equally that, as hard as Brexiteers tried to explain to Remainers otherwise, Remainers seemed unable to accept that their motives were not racist, or that more important to Brexiteers than economics were social and cultural values - ones that were repeatedly slammed as thick, uncultured, or bigoted, by the Remain camp. One side may have ignored expert opinion.  But the other side was just as closed to what they were being told.

Chris McGlade seems to sum up the battle lines that the Brexit/Remain vote was really fought over -  youtube.com/watch?v=aUGmeOe1zkU&

Hmm, actually you have broken Law 2910/2001 of the Hellenic Republic (and whatever the Schengen law is). The first gives you a minimum 3 months free stay in a Greek prison and a minimum fine of 500,000 drachma (whatever that is nowadays in €) plus deportation at your expense plus 5 years on the banned aliens list.

I lived in Greece for 7 years and have crossed the border to Bulgaria a few times by the way.

I'm fully aware of how the new rules are applied. 

My original point is, if your Passport is not scanned at the Bulgaria/Greece border then your scenario does not apply.

My experiences of the Bulgaria/Greece border are similar to the England/Wales border, ie drive through at 70mph without a second glance. 

To save you the intellectual strain I looked at the EU list of penalties for illegal entry (or attempting to do so) to the Schengen area which are nicely listed by country.

For Greece it's 3 months and €1500 minimum for entering or attempting to do so.

If you are driving your van with your friend it's maximum 10 years imprisonment and €20,000 fine + confiscation of property.

If you rent a room, pay for camping etc €1500 to €3,000.

You will have also broken Bulgarian law but don't worry about that!

What's also the case is that many of those people are in basic jobs which are in short supply, so you can also understand why they might think that the other aspect of freedom of movement (the freedom of people from other countries to come in and take those jobs) might also be something they don't think should be happening.

I do firmly believe that a refusal to address those issues, even if they were more perception than actual issue, is one key reason why Remain lost (and I've put it that way on purpose - the Remain campaign made some very stupid and arrogant mistakes, and all they needed to do was sway it 2.000001% to win).

I actually managed to sway a friend who precisely fits that sort of description in terms of his demographic against Brexit with a bit of rationalisation and understanding of his position.  The Remain campaign singularly failed to do that, it just assumed it would win and, er, didn't.

I'm not doubting your knowledge, just discribing my experience of the border. 

Oh, interesting. I didn't think about retired people with two homes/motorhome/yacht. I was thinking mainly in terms of working people going on standard holidays and young people doing extended travel (whom would, respectively, be unlikely to use more than 90 days and be able to go for a visa as it's not a regular event).

Only thing I would say is that if you are in the 2nd home/motorhome/yacht group, I think it was pretty foolhardy to wait till crunch time to do anything about trying to claim residency somewhere.

Just some pointless trivia: We did have some adventure popes over the years. Karol Voityla (a.k.a. John Paul II) was a keen folding kayak paddler, and Achille Ratti (Pius XI) made the first ascent of the Tournette Spur on Mont Blanc and a route on the East face of Monte Rosa (from the vinity of the Marinelli hut to Colle Zumstein).

CB

If you so much as go near an airport you will enter the Schengen information system.  I would not bet on that not working!

Could you just walk us through the steps to get residency somewhere for a touring campervan?

And what about the people who are going to retire in 5 / 10 / 20 years time? Should they have got residency in some country they're not resident?

He was probably Willingly the cross-eyed bear.

I wasn't stupid enough to vote for brexit so can I stay as long as I like?

So why write absolute bollocks?

For some Brexiteers, I'm sure they were voting for some nebulous cultural values (aka British exceptionalism), but you don't have to listen for very long to know that plenty were motivated by racism.

I think people are pointing out that just because you reckon it would be easy to get away with, doesn't mean you should seriously think about doing it. It's illegal, with what sound like pretty harsh penalties.