UKH

Hi folks,

I'm new here, so apologies for barging in unannounced asking for advice. I hope this doesn't get anyone's back up but I didn't spot an introduction part to the forum.

I'm a sea angler and do a lot of my fishing around wales on some pretty remote rock marks and it entails walking down some really steep grass banks to get to the rocks.

I'm currently using wellington boots with supatrak studs screwed in. They are damn good on the wet rocks but not so good on the steep banks when getting down to the rocks. There's been a couple of times when I've started to feel my feet slip even though I've got studs in and in some locations if I slipped and lost my footing I'd be in really big trouble.

I'm hoping to find better footwear for the job as it will open up more places to fish and enable me to get to them and not have to worry about a bit of dew on the grass or recent rain.

Typically it's very short, sheep-grazed grass on firm ground, so your feet don't sink in the soil much for better purchase. So I'm trying to find out which boots are the best at gripping short wet grass on firm very steep banks.

I also need them to have some flat areas within the grip pattern so that I can also fit studs to them around the front and heel.

Does anyone know of a boot that would fit my requirements?

Many thanks for reading this, I really appreciate your time spent thinking about this and replying.

Kind regards

Tim

Does it need to be boots? Fell running shoes like Inov8 mudclaws are pretty much designed for that sort of thing.

Or Kahtoola Microspikes over your wellies?

Hi Dave, thanks for the speedy response. I guess it doesn't have to be, I'm just thinking about the ankle support and some protection against accidently treading in a rock pool and the odd wave splash when your near the edge trying to land a fish. So something better than a trainer type shoe preferably, although that sounds like a fair shout for warm weather.

I've note heard of microspikes, I'll check those out, thankyou.

If the fell shoes are better on the grass you could always carry your wellies down and put them on at the bottom I suppose.

TBH I'm not sure how they'd work on grass but in principle it makes sense.

or Inov8 o-rocs: https://www.inov-8.com/oroc-280-orienteering-shoe

Yeah those microspikes look like they would really dig into the terrain and yes I could strap my wellies to my rucksack. I have wondered about changing footwear on different terrain but didn't know what best to get and was always wondering if there was one boot that would do all.

They sound the business. First impressions are I'd be wanting to fit a few more studs than that as the rocks near the splash zone are algae covered, and can be lethal to stand on, as sometimes not all your studs are making contact simultaneously so you need a good few in I think to be on the safe side. I could maybe fit some more to those shoes though, depending on the dimensions of the little flat raised bits. Cheers for the suggestion Mark it's much appreciated.

Assuming you go down, do your thing, and go back up at the same spot, rather than constantly changing location going up and down those banks, you could just whack a couple of stakes on the ground and use a fat rope or a rope with knots to assist you up and down just going hand over hand.

Hi Mr Lopez. I might be able to do that if the soil is deep enough. I'm not sure it is but it could be an option or maybe i could tie one round a suitable rock if there is one. I'd prefer the footwear solution first ideally, mainly just to reduce the amount I am carrying as I'm already carrying enough as it is but also because I'm thinking it would be awkward to have my 7 foot rod sections and tripod strapped to the back of my rucksack. I usually have them in one hand and use them like a staff in places and I think they may flail around a bit and clout the rocks, etc, if on my back.

On some vertical drops I have lowered them down with a rope before but on an incline they'd just scrape all over the ground I think. If I was able to secure them rigidly in place upright then yes I think a rope would be a solution at times. The main obstacle would be getting a stake in far enough in to the shallow soil to hold my weight I think. I think it could be a solution for some spots but not a solution I could confidently apply in general to a wide range of places but it is a good suggestion and worth looking into for places that are especially inaccessible. Thanks for the reply Mr Lopez it's appreciated.

Maybe 

https://www.nokianfootwear.com/men/?type=studdable

Also for protecting tricky descents, heavy and expensive

https://dmmprofessional.com/Journal/June-2015/Talon-Steep-Earth-Anchor

Hi John,

Those Nokian wellingtons look good quality and like you say - maybe. I've got to consider if they are going to be that much different to my current wellies with studs. They most likely will be better but by how much I wonder. I think the style of grips on the inov8 shoes already mentioned look the best most grippiest soles that have been suggested up to now and if they were crossed with those on those Nokian wellies that you have mentioned, that would be pretty close to a perfect solution and the only way to better that would be to have the comfort of a hiking boot as well. I have no idea if something like that actually exists, hence the post.

The Talon Steep Earth Anchor - I knew there was a good reason for joining this forum - to access a completely different knowledge base I know nothing about. I'd have never have thought of that in a million years John. That's some piece of kit that is and a very cleverly thought up tool. A great suggestion John.

I reckon a rope off a device like that would make a good safety back up for if your feet did slip, you could steady yourself with the rope off that and prevent yourself losing your balance. I'm not sure just off first glance I'd want to solely rely on it though. I'd want the best footwear solution too to go with it as well - because it says on the info for it, it's for when failure is not going to lead to a catastrophe but for me, if I go arse over tit, it pretty much is going to be a catastrophe as a lot of these banks end in rocks, drops on to rocks or drops in to the sea, but I do think that having that device set up with a rope would enable you to steady yourself if you suddenly slid a bit or lost your balance and for that reason I think that could be a really useful tool. Many thanks for bringing that up John.

Hi Tim,

speaking as a climber and angler perhaps my opinion is useful. Firstly, the cliff anglers here put angle-iron or scaffold pipe stakes in and tie old potting rope onto them to use hand over hand. They invariably do a bad job (ropes left in situ to get degraded by the sun and tied on with bad knots) so we climbers replace them with old climbing rope secured properly when we can. Most of the strength in a climbing rope is in the core, and the sheath protects that from the sun. Hawser-laid potting rope sees every part of the rope exposed to the sun at some point.  If you take it home with you after a session it'll last longer and it'll be harder for people to find your secret marks by spotting your rope dangling down the cliff (see, told you I was an angler!). A bit of steel angle or T-iron with sides an inch wide or 1" waterpipe banged in 3 feet is plenty strong enough to support an angler's laden weight. Test them before committing your weight to them though, they'll rust under the ground where you can't see the damage.  The anglers here wear either wellies / hiking boots / builder's lace-up boots because there's no algae-covered rocks to go over requiring studs.  Perhaps a solution for keeping your feet dry whilst having a good grip would be fell-running shoes or aggressive astro trainers and the kind of waders designed to be worn under wading boots?  Or are wading boots made with an aggressive tread and studs? In a nutshell, any heavily-studded tread will be great on steep grass. You could potentially use a heated blade to carve out the tread on a pair of wellies into studs, but that might make them too flexible.  I think a hand rope will make a tremendous difference in your safety because you can't easily turn with rodbags on your back and bait buckets in your hands.  If you manage to turn an ankle it's loads easier to get up the cliff with a rope than by hopping alone, and don't forget, it takes some time to get a rescue team together to get you out of trouble if you do manage to hurt yourself, we reckon on 1.5 hours minimum to reach a casualty - 20 minutes to get to the station, 20 minutes to drive to the cliffs, 10 minutes to get to the top, 15 minutes to build an anchor, and 15 minutes to get a man down to you.  Well done for coming to ask the climbing community's advice, some of the things I see anglers doing make my hair stand on end because they don't appreciate the risks and forces involved.

John Kelly raises the idea of the Talon anchor. Parts of the military are dedicated to 'high angle terrain' and negotiating sea cliffs and companies like DMM / Helix have developed all sorts of equipment for it of which some may be useful here. Have a look at their catalogue for ideas. I know strap on crampons and variations on the ice tool are in use.

Be aware the climbing world can have a very narrow view on things at times, and could possibly learn more from what you're doing that the other way. The DIY approach that once defined climbing has evaporated over time, for good or bad. The risks associated with rock fishing would be considered insane by many comparisons to climbing - though at least you come away with something to eat. 

That talon thing is interesting but homemade removable ground anchors are fairly easily fashioned. A couple of flat metal plates with 6-8 holes in each, pins of some sort hammered through then the plates equalised. Removes the worry of stakes rotting.

Crampons or or football boots.

One suggestion is semi serious, the other less so...

CB

Difficult to guard against algae covered rock. Need to use poles or keep a low centre of gravity and use hands to support, place feet very carefully, or 'run' over very light of foot. 

For steep, wet, slippy grass having a pair of boots with a really stiff sole makes a difference- by walking up or down sideways you can really kick the edge of your foot into the slope which makes it feel way more secure.

The other option which I've employed on steep grass slopes before is an old mountaineering axe, which you could pick up on the for sale forum on here for super cheap. Might be overkill but will make things feel much more secure, even if you just use it like a walking stick shoving the spike at the bottom of the shaft into the grass. Approaching a cliff near where I lie it's not undear of for people to use an axe and crampons on the steep grassy slopes!

As already mentioned inov8 mudclaws are brilliant on steep grass. If you want something that's like a boot (i.e. have an ankle cuff, waterproof) the high ankle roclites https://www.inov-8.com/roclite-g-345-gtx-mens-lightweight-hiking-boot are better on mud than the average boot though not in the same league as mudclaws.

Hi Waitout, thanks fo r the suggestion I will check them out.

Yes the crampon idea looks doable and would be loads easier than having to start carrying a ton of extra kit and start putting ropes up etc. 

The algae covered rocks are fine if you have metal studs in your boots, which was why I was hoping for boot suggestions that I could fit studs to but that would be good on the banks as well. I've order longer studs for the banks a while ago but not had chance to test them yet due to lockdown. Maybe they will grip the grass a lot better than the shorter ones I've currently got fitted.

Aye it might me worth taking an axe like that as it surely wouldn't weight that much and I could just have that strapped up and just get it out for the particularly dodgy bits. Cheers for the suggestion.

Yeah I had a good look at those Inov-8 mudclaws last night. There is plenty of great reviews about them. I've been thinking of getting some and wearing waterproof neoprene socks inside them to counteract for inevitable sea water that I'm going to end up stepping in accidently or getting splashed by at some point.

Some very good points to think about there, thank you. I suppose really it comes down to there being the sort of marks I'll risk without a rope and the sort where it would be stupid to go down without one. When I started the thread I was hoping to solve the problem of the former by just getting footwear that would grip so well that I would be at very little risk of losing my footing. 

Originally I was not wanting to employ one if i can help it, just because of the extra mither and time spent dealing with it. However, there are places that I don't fish because I would really need a rope and they have just been off the "to do" list because I never really considered gearing up for them. This thread has got me thinking about how I could gear up for those places and could result in me having a load more places to access but really, like you say, a rope is going to transform the safety aspect of what I do so I should maybe seriously think about employing on instead of risking it.

What has surprised me about this discussion is how the best grips that keep coming up for a shoe are on a trail running shoe and that no one has mentioned a hiking or mountaineering boot that has as good a grip. Are these companies missing a trick here? I dunno, I'll wait and see if anyone does come up with something rivaling the grips on those inov-8s.

I like the idea of having a covert piece of angle iron in the ground though, ready for hooking up to - sneaky that!

BTW is there a way of quoting multiple replies and replying in one message rather than writing a separate reply to each person?

Not really.

Most folk just manually edit the "in reply to" bit and add the names (I think!).

So here's a leftfield idea. How about sourcing a sole unit from mudclaws and resoling a pair of wellies with it? It would probably take a skilled (and friendly) cobbler to do it, and not sure if inov8 provides soles for re-soling, but could be worth a punt.

Not too covert or you may have people tripping over it. Inconspicuous tends to be better than stealth with regards third party's ankles

Just write the name before the paragraph and people will know who that is intended for.

More likely to get such a thing from Walsh I think. https://www.normanwalshuk.com/

Wouldn't fancy my chances going down steep grass in a pair of these https://www.normanwalshuk.com/product-page/challenger-grey

ETA: Seems LSR have Walsh soles and a bunch of other options https://lancashiresportsrepairs.co.uk/running-shoe-repairs-and-resoles/

Cheaper option to Mudclaws:

https://www.startfitness.co.uk/brand/more-mile.html?footwear_type=2869

Great grip. They tend to fall apart a bit sooner - you shouldnt be giving them the same abuse as a hill runner, though salt water kills most non rubber footwear pretty quickly.

Inov8 also do an 'Arctic Claw' which has similar tread to mudclaw, but with metal dobs which will be better on rock.

Lots of other orienteering shoes with metal dobs/studs.

Have you looked at 'Snowbee Rockhoppers'?

Good thinking.

Good point you are totally right, I wouldn't want to put someone else's safety at risk. Cheers for the input.

In reply to DaveHK:

Good shout bringing up those Norman Walsh shoes, some of them also look very grippy. Thankyou.

Hi Davie,

Those more-miles look a good option on the grass. 

So far in terms of trainers/boots we have those, the Norman Walsh and the inov-8. I think all look great on grass. I do have already have pair of Addidas Terrex which are really good on these banks when dry but it's not been wet on the grass on times I've used them. I do know that they are unsafe on the rocks once they are wet though, as on an occasion when I fished into darkness in summer, the air went cold later on and the fine mist/spray that you constantly get near sea level, because of wave splash, stopped drying out and even well above the water gradually became moist on the rocks over the evening. I became less and less unsteady and prone to slipping as the night progressed and this was what sealed the deal when it came to having studs in.

So I've got to have the metal studs in any shoe I am standing on the rocks in at the bottom, so I'll either have to fit the studs to what I'm using on the grass banks or swap things around once the banks have been traversed, which might be the best solution in the end.

The studs I'm using are ok on rocks because there isn't that buffer zone of squashable material, i.e. grass between the sole bottom and the end of the stud but on the grass itself they are not always enough. So actually now I come to think about it, maybe just longer studs might solve the problem. I have got some slightly longer ones to try but not had chance yet. If it works out ok I'll come on and let people know.

I have heard of the Snowbee Rock Hoppers. I've researched studded boots on the sea angling forums in the past and they have mixed reviews with some saying they don't last that long, hence me fitting studs to my wellingtons. The wellingtons are pretty cheap and if they wear out I can swap the studs to new ones. With the studs I'm using being very good quality I've questioned whether I'd gain much advantage from having the rock hoppers.

Another boot that gets mentioned on the sea angling forums is the Rock Grip boots. They basically take Grub Boots and fit their own studs to them. They get rave reviews from the sea anglers that are fishing icey rocks in Norway but again grass is a different kettle of fish and the studs on these boots are virtually identical to the ones I am already wearing, again making me think I won't gain much advantage, apart from the comfort of using these boots but a few pairs of socks has solved that up to now.

You are spot on about the saltwater. My last pair of walking boots fell apart because of it and made me realize that any walking boots that are not washed and dubbed religiously, or that don't have the soles stitched on, are only going to last a season. I've learnt that lesson and whichever footwear replaces the wellies, if I can also use them on the rocks (if they'll take studs) is going to be better looked after than my last ones.

Thanks for the suggestions Davie that was useful as the orienteering side of things wouldn't have occurred to me before starting this discussion. It really has been great coming on this forum and experiencing this cross over of knowledge from different disciplines that's been lacking on the sea angling forums so far.

On the sea angling forums the advice is if the banks are wet you stay well clear. I am not planning to go out in the rain to be fair but if there has been recent rain and there's still a bit of moisture in the grass I want to be confident my footwear will handle it. Also dew in the morning and dew forming on the grass come evening time, sea mist rolling in and of course that unexpected shower, are all things that crop up and increase the chances of sliding, and it's these kinds of scenarios I'm wanting to have a bit more safety in.

Footwear is important but constant risk assessment as you move over terrain is equally so. 

Non-angler here. Funnily enough my experience with boots and saltwater differs. I don't use expensive boots and my coastal footwear of preference is cheap artificial textile boots from Sports Direct (presumably with artificial fbre stitching which I imagine is much more resistant to salt than natural fibre), approx £20. I never give them any care apart from occasionally brushing off thick mud. They seem to be as durable near the sea as when using them inland. The cleats aren't very deep and so they probably wouldn't solve the OP grass slope problem, though they are far better than, say,  my running shoes would be of course. One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned so far is having a degree of stiffness in the sole which I find invaluable on steep mountain grass where I frequently dig the whole edge in in descent (Edit: Will_he_fall did mention this).

Have you looked at fly Fishing wading boots? They are pretty much just hiking boots but designed to get wet as they go over waders. They are also designed to take studs. I use mine for going down banks like you describe and also wading in Rocky slippy rivers and they're great. 

Have a look at one's made by Patagonia, orvis or Simms and other brands. You would have the added bonus of being kept totally dry.

More so I would say.  Especially when using something like Kahtoola Microspikes, which are a great product but not really intended for use on a steep slope and there's some danger if you're not vigilant of developing a false sense of security.

Most mountaineering / hiking is done on easy-angled gravelly paths requiring little grip, or steeper bare rock where some flat-ish sections of tread offer the best grip.  Many mountaineering soles have chunky tread apart from the so-called 'climbing toe' area which is flat.  Fully-studded soles like Inov8s or astro trainers don't work at all well on rock, the amount of surface area in contact is tiny. Pure grass is best dealt with by studs (as we all know from playing football) which work by digging in rather than trying to grip by pure friction on low-friction grass.

Bear in mind that if you slip onto your arse/side in full waterproofs on steep wet grass you are going to shoot off down the slope like a rocket. If the ground is steep enough to do that and there's no brambles/rocks/flat bits to stop you consider the hand rope option. I'd say try some gripper footwear on your existing marks and work up to other things as you gain confidence.

I used to use cheap fabric ones but the grips were not good enough, they let too much water in if you trod in deep mud or a rock pool and the soles were too thin. However they did last 3 times longer than the leather ones with the glued on soles. I might get some like that again, because of that reason, for wearing on places that are easier to access, where the risk of getting wet is low.

I've not considered those and as you have got experience of them going down the same type of terrain that carries quite a bit of weight. So cheers for the suggestion and I will check those out.

I'm always vigilant in these sorts of places as I'm usually alone and if things go wrong I'll probably be knackerd.

My Addidas Terrex were great on rock until it got wet and then they became pretty poor unless it was rough textured but even so they were nowhere near as good as metal studs. The metal studs I currently have fitted are good on grass until that gets wet and then their effectiveness dwindles quite a bit. Maybe longer studs will solve it. Time will tell. So far I've ordered some longer studs and also some crampon style devices to wear over my boots. I'm still weighing up the other options mentioned. Obviously I havn't come a cropper so far but I want a bit more security than what I currently have and wondered if the hill/mountain climbing community had any ideas I hadn't already though of.

I think I can get away without ropes for now on most of the places I currently fish but there's a couple of places I should probably employ one though to be on the safe side. I'm going to look into all that side of things, as I can definitely think of places I'd like to try if I knew what I was doing with the ropes, etc. I found a climbing instruction center not too far away from me online last night, so I'm going to do a rope ascending and descending course (or words to that effect it said).

On this video it show a couple of lads getting down to a fishing mark using a rope from 1:25 to 2:36. 

youtube.com/watch?v=BITTvEPEN6k&

It doesn't look like a climbing rope though as it is more strap like but it does the job in terms of steadying their decent.