Trespass Law - Petition now available

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 Meeker 25 Aug 2020

I know that have been several threads before discussing the issue of criminalizing the act of intentional trespass, but there is now a govt petition open about this:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139

This is one for us all to sign regardless of being a climber or hillwalker.

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In reply to Meeker:

Though it says it is not intended to impact ramblers etc I can't say I entirely believe them, thin end of the wedge and all that. Better to voice concerns about it now than try to roll it back once they've decided where to stop.

 Trevers 26 Aug 2020
In reply to Meeker:

> I know that have been several threads before discussing the issue of criminalizing the act of intentional trespass, but there is now a govt petition open about this:

> This is one for us all to sign regardless of being a climber or hillwalker.

Signed. F*** this government.

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 La benya 26 Aug 2020
In reply to Meeker:

Erm- the law change is....  the Home Office is proposing to broaden the categories of criminal trespass to cover trespassers who enter onto any land without permission of the occupier with the intention to reside.

Key word there is reside- unless you go on a ramble with the intention of setting up a home, you wont be affected.  'Wild' camping is already illegal so what is really going to change?

If it means that travellers get moved on immediately/ it stops that ridiculous farce of a tradition then i'm all for it.

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 MeMeMe 26 Aug 2020
In reply to La benya:

> Key word there is reside- unless you go on a ramble with the intention of setting up a home, you wont be affected.  'Wild' camping is already illegal so what is really going to change?

Will it turn wild camping from a civil to a criminal offence?

If so that's a big change. I took our 6 year old wild camping for the first time the other weekend, we found a secluded spot in the hills, camped over night, packed up in the morning leaving no trace. We risked being moved on but at worst we'd have had a long walk back to the car where we could have slept. I'm not sure I'd have risked it if I could have been arrested!

 spenser 26 Aug 2020
In reply to MeMeMe:

That is very much my understanding of the issue.

 La benya 26 Aug 2020
In reply to MeMeMe:

It is already criminal if you don't leave when directed to as Aggravated Trespass is an arrestable offence (no idea why Travellers get away with it). so why would anything change?  the land owners isn't likely to go searching for wild campers any more than they do now (in the sense of legitimate, considerate wild campers) however it gives them powers to deal with those that take the piss and give everyone that does it properly a bad name.

Further, by reading the intentions of the law, if that is how it will be written i think the courts will have to decide what 'Reside' means and whether it incorporates ramblers (no) wild campers or other groups.

Finally, do you really think police are going to walk up a mountain to arrest you for camping? you cant even get them to attend your house if you've been burgled! 

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In reply to La benya:

It is intended to stop travellers parking up but as I said before it's the thin end of the wedge. Why not word the legislation as "anyone in a vehicle parking up or towing a caravan with the intention to stay longer than one night"? Leaving it so vague leaves it open to interpretation. Much like the government telling us earlier this year that they didn't need to write the current food standards into law because they'll safeguard them at a later date and now we have the increased chance of sub standard US produced meat and farm produce coming over and undercutting good hardworking British farmers.

I've been having a nice discussion with a friend of mine who's a farmer about it, and though she's a lovely lass she's happy for this (trespassing law) to go ahead because she believes it will lead to restrictions on paths through fields for public right of way. As I said, thin end of the wedge.

 Trevers 26 Aug 2020
In reply to La benya:

Well any responsible wild camper would happily move on when asked, so the criminal offense is to resist that, which isn't terribly controversial. So it's a clear and regressive change to criminalise the act of pitching a tent or getting into a bivvy sack.

Anti fox-hunting activists are also concerned that the law may also be intended to make it harder for hunt sabs to continue their activities.

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 La benya 26 Aug 2020
In reply to Boris\'s Johnson:

Well, public rights of way are protected separately.  the new law (and old) deal with private land where there is no permission to be there.  Even without a specific footpath/ ROW, if someone can document that there has been historic use of that path then an implied easement could be in force and again, you would be protected. Farmers have a long history of ignoring peoples historical rights, no matter how well established.  I bet your friend wont admit to removing footpath signs to stop people walking voer their fields/ accross their yards even thought it is 100% legal.

I don't think they can word the law that way because 'they' are a protected minority and it would be seen as unfairly targeting them. personally I would have like to see them strip them of that title after brexit and then draft the law as you say.

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 La benya 26 Aug 2020
In reply to Trevers:

How many instances of true 'wild' campers being asked to move on is there?  surely if you are doing it in the spirit of its intention, land owners wont know you are there, wont know you were there and wont be bothered to find you as you'll be way away from anything of interest.

after this year, there is all the more need to sort out the mess of people 'wild' camping where they wish.  I genuinely think that true 'wilders' will be fine, and their experience will be made all the better from their activity being limited to its true form.

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 MeMeMe 26 Aug 2020
In reply to La benya:

> It is already criminal if you don't leave when directed to as Aggravated Trespass is an arrestable offence (no idea why Travellers get away with it). so why would anything change? 

_if you don't leave when directed_ - You've highlighted the change yourself.

> the land owners isn't likely to go searching for wild campers any more than they do now (in the sense of legitimate, considerate wild campers) however it gives them powers to deal with those that take the piss and give everyone that does it properly a bad name.

Didn't you just say that it's already a criminal offence not to leave when directed? 

> Further, by reading the intentions of the law, if that is how it will be written i think the courts will have to decide what 'Reside' means and whether it incorporates ramblers (no) wild campers or other groups.

I'm not sure that's very reassuring!

> Finally, do you really think police are going to walk up a mountain to arrest you for camping? you cant even get them to attend your house if you've been burgled! 

As I say, I don't think I'd take my 6 year old out overnight wild camping if we could get arrested no matter how unlikely, it would hardly be fair to put them in that position.

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 La benya 26 Aug 2020
In reply to MeMeMe:

I clearly meant 'what will change' in the sense of what will change for you in your experience or behaviour. it was obvious that is what I meant as you have already pointed out that i wrote the actual change myself.

I get you don't like the 'feel' of the new law. But that isn't a reason to intentionally misread the alternative view on the matter.

If you don't like the idea of breaking the law with your child, then why are you wild camping now?  You're still breaking the law. 

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Nempnett Thrubwell 26 Aug 2020
In reply to Boris\'s Johnson:

>  Why not word the legislation as "anyone in a vehicle parking up or towing a caravan with the intention to stay longer than one night"? Leaving it so vague leaves it open to interpretation.

Vague legislation can be both helpful and unhelpful.

Unhelpful in that yes it opens it up for use in unintended scenarios -  but be too specific and you'll have perpetrators pushing the caravans over the threshold and arguing they weren't towed. Mention vehicles and it will end with just the caravans being present and the vehicles left nearby - or a single horse which heroically pulled all 20 caravans onto the site. Or mention caravans and it won't include converted transits etc

Keeping it vague means less room for endless appeals/legal arguments around each enforcement.

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 tehmarks 26 Aug 2020
In reply to La benya:

> 'Wild' camping is already illegal so what is really going to change?

(My emphasis)

No it isn't. The change in law may well make it so; as a hill-goer, are you really happy with the notion of being arrested and charged with an offence for pitching your tent at dusk on someone else's land, leaving early in the morning with no trace?

It might practically make bugger all difference because if you're doing it right no one should know that you are or were there - but that's not the point, is it?

 Mihangel 26 Aug 2020
In reply to La benya:

> It is already criminal if you don't leave when directed to as Aggravated Trespass is an arrestable offence (no idea why Travellers get away with it). so why would anything change?  the land owners isn't likely to go searching for wild campers any more than they do now (in the sense of legitimate, considerate wild campers) however it gives them powers to deal with those that take the piss and give everyone that does it properly a bad name.

> Further, by reading the intentions of the law, if that is how it will be written i think the courts will have to decide what 'Reside' means and whether it incorporates ramblers (no) wild campers or other groups.

> Finally, do you really think police are going to walk up a mountain to arrest you for camping? you cant even get them to attend your house if you've been burgled! 

Aggravated trespass is for trespassing on land to disrupt the activity that is taking place there. I.e. protestors stopping building work/ fracking sites. Travellers or wild campers don’t generally  come under aggravated trespass.

 MeMeMe 26 Aug 2020
In reply to La benya:

> If you don't like the idea of breaking the law with your child, then why are you wild camping now?  You're still breaking the law. 

It’s not breaking the law (in this case) that I’m worried about it’s the fact that it would be a criminal offence and there is potential (albeit an unlikely one) of being arrested!

 La benya 26 Aug 2020
In reply to Mihangel:

Ah interesting. Thanks.  I had read it as refusing to leave once instructed to do so. I'm not sure how parking across a football pitch isn't disrupting the activity, and shitting by the goal posts certainly is.

 La benya 26 Aug 2020
In reply to MeMeMe:

I can understand that. But the risk of breaking at least one law while exiting your house is probably close to 100%. As long as you're sensible in the way you do it, its my view that ill be fine.

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 MeMeMe 26 Aug 2020
In reply to La benya:

> I can understand that. But the risk of breaking at least one law while exiting your house is probably close to 100%. As long as you're sensible in the way you do it, its my view that ill be fine.

I guess everyone has their own circumstances and perspective and so comes to a different conclusion. I'd personally like the law to stay the same (or become more liberal in terms of wild camping) so have signed the petition, but likely to little effect so you'll probably get things your way!


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