Impossible boots - run and climb

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 laurencet 16 Aug 2020

Hi All 

I accept that there will have to be a compromise but I haven't found it yet.

I'm looking for a mid-height pair of boots that I can run in and move fast and climb simple routes up HS.  Anything technical and I'm happy to start getting my climbing slippers out, or mountaineering boots. I should also say I'm looking for a lightweight summer boot peak district, Norway,  Corsica, Basque Mountains

To make it more fun I also have reasonably wide feet. 

What I've tried so far. 

Adidas terrex mid gtx

These were super light and comfy to run in also offered the limited ankle support I was after. 

Problem was their pretty crap to climb in the sole rolls over and won't edge, they also dropped to bits after less than a couple of weeks ad all the fabric on the front delaminated and I quickly got wet feet. 

Five Ten Guide Tennies

These were great to climb in.. If anything the size I bought was slightly small

I really missed the ankle support, and the super-soft rubber soles didn't last long.  There is also very little cushioning in the heel for running in.   

Meindl Bhutan Mens MFS GTX

There were super comfy, also acceptable to climb in. They failed when it came to running as are heavy the boot is also quite stiff.  They were doing really well till I lost one wild camping in Norway.  

Salewa mountain trainers - Tried on

I got excited by these till i tried them on. They felt really flat-footed. Also to get the width I needed I lost any ability to edge. 

HANWAG - Ferrata II GTX - Mountaineering boots - tried on

I was really impressed, they edge really well and I get the feeling will be great to climb in. 

There just a bit too heavy and solid and almost impossible to run in.  Maybe I should just get fitter.

Any ideas?

Post edited at 14:43
 Dr.S at work 16 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

How did you lose a boot wild camping?

 shantaram 16 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet: Have you tried Inov8 Roclite boots? Great for running in and they have a wide fit. 

 chadogrady 16 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

La Sportiva TX Guide 

 Alkis 16 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

I've run, lead up to VS And seconded harder in La Sportiva Boulder X. I have the low version, since I rather dislike ankle support for general use, but the mid version might fit the bill for you.

 neuromancer 16 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

Why do you want mid boots, if your remit is 'to run and climb in,  for hot weather'.

There's not such thing as meaningful ankle support (ie that would stop a roll) from a hiking boot. It's a myth. The only r

Just buy some running shoes you like climbing in? I found sense ultra's pretty good.

Post edited at 18:51
 vscott 16 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

Not mid-height but VJ Maxx are good light running shoes with a wideish fit which climb well - very sticky rubber reminiscent of original tennis/ early inov8s.

 ianstevens 16 Aug 2020
In reply to neuromancer:

> Why do you want mid boots, if your remit is 'to run and climb in,  for hot weather'.

> There's not such thing as meaningful ankle support (ie that would stop a roll) from a hiking boot. It's a myth. The only r

> Just buy some running shoes you like climbing in? I found sense ultra's pretty good.

This x10000. Every approach shoe ever made is terrible for running in. 

 wbo2 16 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet: Maybe Salomon X-alp Carbon.  I have the old model, and a pair of XA Alpine pro, both are v. good. Again I don't see why you need boots.  

If you want them, or any other running shoe, to climb well fit them a bit tighter than normal or the cushioned midsole will be hell.

 Rob N 16 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

I like the look of these, going to get a pair during the week and see how they go.

https://www.dynafit.com/en-gb/speed-mtn-08-0000064047?number=&c=916552

 dovebiker 17 Aug 2020

+1 on Salomon X-Alp Carbons - the soles have very good lateral stability in comparison to most trail running shoes. Based on my previous experience of Inov-8 Roclites, they're just trail running shoes with an ankle cuff, no real lateral stability.

 Tigger 19 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

La Sportiva TX4 Mids?

 Fredt 19 Aug 2020
In reply to neuromancer:

> There's not such thing as meaningful ankle support (ie that would stop a roll) from a hiking boot. It's a myth. The only r

After a significant injury to my foot and ankle, I have been building up the walking miles. At first in my walking boots, but I was being limited in the distance I could do due to pain in the sole of my foot, so I started walking in my old Hoka running shoes, (no other use for them now).

They were great, it solved the foot pain issue, but as distance increased my ankle started to suffer. Back to some oversize boots with two sorbothane insoles. Ankle pain much reduced, so the boots do give me meaningful ankle support, but as you say wouldn’t stop a roll.

To the OP, I’m currently looking at a new range of Hoka boots, their running shoes have superb cushioning, and they’re combining that with ankle support and part Vibram soles on the boots.

Post edited at 09:46
 r0b 19 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

This seems like an impossible mission, anything that has enough stiffness for edging is likely to be horrible to run in. I have Scarpa Mescalito's for scrambling but I can't image running in them!

Alternatively, see what Kilian Jornet uses!

 Garethza 19 Aug 2020
In reply to Rob N:

Any consensus on them? They look like the exact thing i am looking for - for technical mountain running... my salomons werent doing a great job on the ring of steall the other day - slipping and sliding all over on the polished rock!

OP laurencet 19 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

Thank you for all the useful comments.  I really want mid-height, crossing scree and boulder fields and Scottish bogs, Even in summer you tend to find patches of snow.

Spending the next 8 hours with soggy wet feet and battered ankles isn't much fun.  I fully accept that rollover support is going to be very limited if at all. 

If I was planning on running the pennie way i'll put on my salmon speedcrosses, but I want something for when it gets a whole lot steeper.  

I have two issues with La Sportiva,

Firsty, aren't the lasts they use on the narrow side? I know this was the case with there climbing shoes.

Secondly, I had a pair of the La Sportiva Miura VS when they first came out, one crack on some good gritstone ripped off the lower velcro straps. la Sportiva refused to fix them as they weren't designed to be used this way.  They were only a week old.

La Sportiva TX Top GTX Approach Shoe - these look like my Scarpa Mont Blanc Pro GTX, I will leave running in these to super heros like Ueli Steck.. I can't

Are the La Sportiva TX4 Mids women only?

The Inov8 ROCLITE G 345 GTX MEN'S - look interesting, I would like to see a climbing edge on the toe.

Does anyone know how they last?  I don't want another pair like my Adidas terrex 

Boots to try on 

Inov8 ROCLITE G 345 GTX

La Sportiva Boulder X Mid GTX

I would love to know how I lost a boot wild camping, the campsite was cleared and double-checked. Luckily last day so running for the plane. Came to swap them over at the airport and one boot was missing. I'm guessing it fell down a rabbit hole or similar... I didn't have time to go back. Wherever it was, it was well hidden.

Post edited at 14:35
 TobyA 19 Aug 2020
In reply to Fredt:

This might be of interest http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2020/05/hoka-one-one-tor-ultra-hi-wp.... it's a review of the first generation of Hoka One One boots, which for various reasons never got used on UKC. I think they use Gore-Tex now rather than event, but otherwise the newer models look rather similar. I tried to avoid running as much as possible, but I have running these and they worked fine for it for whatever limited distance I did. 

 Rob N 19 Aug 2020
In reply to Garethza:

Sorry I haven't been able to get them yet, my size is out of stock in most places.

Also been looking at the new Salomon X Alpine pro but they are also out of stock..

I wore Salomon Speed Cross's during the ring of steall race (dry day) and they were OK but they are terrible once you need to climb something or walk near a wet slab!

I don't seem to find the low height shoes a problem for Scotland, at some point I always end up soaked in a bog or running through a river and then at least they drain. Had gortex runners once and just sweated too much in them.

 ianstevens 19 Aug 2020
In reply to Rob N:

That would be because of the lugs in the speedcross - they give you quite a small contact patch on rock, they need soft terrain they can dig into. For rock you want to get as much rubber in contact with the rock as possible - climbing shoes are slick for a reason! 

 jack89 19 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

> The Inov8 ROCLITE G 345 GTX MEN'S - look interesting, I would like to see a climbing edge on the toe.

You could get a stiffer vibram sole with climbing edge put on at a good cobbler. Another suggestion might be vivobarefoot, if you adapt to run in them: sensitivity for easy climbing, comfy and dry quickly.

 Rob N 19 Aug 2020

Yep that’s the issue alright 

 ianstevens 20 Aug 2020
In reply to Rob N:

 TBH I find it strange the people like them for that very reason - it's pretty rare that I've ever not come across a bit of rock (flat or otherwise) whilst running in the hills in the UK or mountains in Europe/NZ. Far better suited to a bit of cross country. That all said, I actually find the Speedcross detestable regardless.

In reply to laurencet:

> The Inov8 ROCLITE G 345 GTX MEN'S - look interesting, I would like to see a climbing edge on the toe.

> Does anyone know how they last?  I don't want another pair like my Adidas terrex 

An old thread on durability; https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/running/durability_inov8_shoes-638430
I’ve no experience of the longevity of recent Inov8s, but of old there were problems. Some models were worse than others. Wear of material inside and out (heather or other rough material was hard on the outsides), delamination, splitting, etc.
Also, the goretex didn’t last long in mid ankle boots at least but was useful until it split. I only got up to nine months usually before the goretex gave up for what was relatively easy usage with hill walking (I never ran in Inov8s). On anything where I expected more challenging conditions I used leather boots!

If you want them to last longer it was better getting models without goretex as at least water got out easily and were more breathable esp compared to a goretex model that was leaking.

That said I did like Inov8s and would still buy them if I needed them, but I’ve still have more than enough old models to use up first! Sometimes they are easily repairable - one pair have had the sole re glued on three times for example. 

BTW if you have a wider foot look out for a model with the higher number on their fit scale; they have a unique 1-5 scale as you will know. Also, trivia fact, the number used in the model description is (or at least used to be) the weight in grams if your interested in selecting a lighter or heavier model.

 SenzuBean 20 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

There is a boot suggestion that I found worked really well for foot protection and easy summer climbing. The Altberg jungle boot! It has canvas very high around the ankle, and can be laced quite tightly. It's tough enough to kick some steps with but breathable enough to wear for 12+ hours. I led up to roughly HS/VS with them and did things like Orla Perc in them and a few other summer alpine routes.
In terms of running, well I did a bit of trail running with them and they were fine - but realistically you're pushing it to want something that will excel at all 3 disciplines.
Now I'm getting all upset that my current pair is almost gone and it will be difficult to replace.

2
 Hutson 20 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

Re losing a boot while wildcamping, sometimes wildlife loves to steal sweaty shoes. My friend once unzipped her tent to see a fox making off with one of her sandals, never to be seen again.

 Rob N 20 Aug 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

Everyone's different I guess,

They just seem to fit me well, I've tried a few Inov8's and La Sportiva's but always end up getting sore feet.

I just find the Salomon's really comfortable, so far its been worth being careful when I need to scramble a section.

If the main objective is to climb/scramble something then I'll put up with the extra weight of carrying approach shoes too. Until i find this impossible boot...

 ianstevens 20 Aug 2020
In reply to Rob N:

It's not really the fit, I just find them bulky and heavy with too much going on underfoot. I've used other Salomons extensively, just hate the speedcross.  Like you say though, each to their own! Sense Pros where always my favoured choice, or the SLAB Senses. Served me fine up to VDiff and got me round the Skyline (seeing as you mentioned RoS),

Post edited at 12:52
 Rob N 20 Aug 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

I probably run so awkwardly that I can't make out whats me and whats the shoe

They both look good, think I'll give the Sense Pro's a try next!

 tlouth7 20 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

Lots of orienteers have dodgy ankles, and there are orienteering shoes with high ankles, see link below. I couldn't find any without studs (which would be a pain for climbing), but I'm sure such things exist.

The other good option is to wear an ankle brace or tape your ankle. Braces vary from lightweight velcro neoprene to laced up canvas depending on the level of support needed. My dad has both and swaps them over depending on which ankle is worse on any given day.

Orienteering or fell running shoes are good for running off-road, though lack cushioning for hard surfaces. They tend to be much less bulky than road shoes, especially around the toe, so should be better for climbing.

https://www.compasspoint-online.co.uk/product/vj-integrator-high-4/

 Garethza 20 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

just seen Salomon have these on their site (under hiking instead of trail running for some reason) 

Salomon X Alpine Pro

https://www.salomon.com/en-gb/shop-emea/product/x-alpine-pro.html#color=191...

Reviews seem to be very encouraging about scrambling and techinical use.. might get a pair of these when my current pair die out!

 Justaname 20 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

The Roclite 345s are lovely boots, however the longevity is questionable. I've had a pair now for 2 years and maybe done 300 miles of walking in them and they're getting a bit shonky in places, however probably nothing of concern. But they re a lightweight, grippy and comfy boot so doubt you can get superb durability in to that equation too.

 dovebiker 20 Aug 2020

Just checked and in fact I have a pair of these: 

https://www.salomon.com/en-gb/shop-emea/product/s-lab-xa-alpine-2.html

Currently, I have 3 pairs of Hoka One One 'boots' - Sky Kaha, Ultra Tor and Speedgoat Mid - great for hiking / prepared trails but the soft midsole makes 'edging' poor

I've also got Salomon, Adidas, Inov-8, Scarpa, New Balance trail shoes on the go.

I'm no longer a fan of ankle support for running / fast-hiking after getting an Achilles inflammation after 60km one day and is very susceptible to flare-up.

I'd only consider the XA-Alpines suitable for anything remotely technical, and yet I can happily run in them, plus the extra support means they're great for rocky descents

 Garethza 20 Aug 2020
In reply to dovebiker:

They should be for that price ! That’s almost winter boot prices.. how long do they last?

OP laurencet 25 Aug 2020
In reply to dovebiker:

The S/LAB XA ALPINE 2 does look like a cool, But ouch that's expensive. Does it have conventional laces underneath the gaitor?

Is it just a pair of trainers with a integrated gaiter? I suspect the cheap option is to buy a pair of SALOMON TRAIL GAITERS HIGH, probably 90% as waterproof and offers similar protection. 

https://www.salomon.com/en-gb/shop-emea/product/trail-gaiters-high.html#col...

Hoka One One Tor Ultra Hi WPs guessing there aren't any stockists in the UK, 

Dam its a ugly though, I'm not even sure it's mother loves it. 

https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2015/11/19/on-test-hoka-one-one-tor-ultra...

Im off to the Cairngorms for 10 days, might see what I can find on the drive up. 

 kaiser 25 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

the Adidas 'Scope' GTX boots might have suited you better as they have a stealth rubber sole and edge pretty well so a great to climb in

Not made anymore though and perhaps a bit stiff for running

 wbo2 25 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:  The Salomon shoe has the speedlce system, but that works really well.  I hve the older version (reviewed on here a few years ago) and it will also hold a crampon quite well.  Killian Jornet seems to do well in his.

I've seen the Hokas and own a couple of pairs of other models.  Forget them for climbing/scrambling... all that thick soft midsole trashes that.  I haven't tried Speedgoats though

 dovebiker 25 Aug 2020

Sportsshoes.com have the X Alpine Carbon 2 half-price - where I got mine.

Hoka Speedgoats are no better than their other running shoes - the soft midsole is great for cushioning but poor for lateral stability / edging

OP laurencet 28 Aug 2020
In reply to laurencet:

Hi All 

Thanks, everyone for your recommendations.  I have finally bought a new pair of boots.. 

It was a compromise  between weight, durability,  sole flexibility, support and climbing (small holds, edging on slabs)

I went for Scarpa Ribelle CL HD, I have sacrificed a little weight for durability and an amazing for climbing and scrambling edge. I also love the fact I can fit my Petzl lynx crampons (un-tested) and stick to running in my trail running trainers. I'm sure there will be days where it makes sense to carry a pair of climbing slippers. For a fast ascent through a boulder field followed by a long scrabble along a rocky ridge, these should excel. 

I started with the Scarpa Men's R-Evo but the only way I could get them to edge was to undersize them slightly, this left them tight across the front of my foot. 

I tried on the Inovat8 345 and Hokas but got put off by durability of the 345's and how they climbed, I'm sure it's related to your foot shape, my wide feet, force me to leave extra room in the toe box that causes the boot to flex at the front when I tried to stand on anything small.

I love climbing slabs and delicate footholds. I didn't feel they were different enough to my Merrell's intercept shoes for climbing in. 

The Scarpa Ribelle are by far the most expensive summer boots I have ever bought,  but for me fill the gap between trail running trainers and my winter mountaineering boots.

They are so different to my SCARPA Mont Blanc GTX the rock in the sole allows a stiff sole that's great to climb in but also comfy to walk/run in. 

My wife is currently deliberating over a pair of Goretex hoka speedgoat 4 as a pure pair of cross country running shoes, as she runs 4 -5 times a week they normally get replaced every 3-4 months. They're just a bit too expensive.


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