NEWS: Lockdown Lifting Sees Increase in Problem Behaviour

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 UKC/UKH News 02 Jun 2020
The fire at the weekend at Bamford Edge was one of several in the Peak District

The return of large numbers of people to national parks and other upland areas in England has brought a spike in littering, wildfires and mountain rescue incidents. Some issues appear to be worse than during equivalent periods in past years.



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1
 Andy Hardy 02 Jun 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

What the national parks need to be doing is campaigning for the very early re-opening of the Trafford centre, meadowhall and the metro centre.

That should tempt the scum away from the outdoors

20
 Will Hunt 02 Jun 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I do wish that when comparing accident numbers from previous years some effort was made to normalise the figures to account for varying weather. It would be more useful to compare figures with those from 2018 when we had a similar long hot and dry spell. Looking at my logbook from May last year, we had a day at Moughton Nab (people climbing in jumpers), a day at Brimham (we spent half of it under a roof sheltering from torrential rain), one sunny day at Moughton, a pleasant evening in the Rocky Valley, and a May Bank Holiday where we went to the Lakes for a stag do: those of us arriving on the Friday climbed in glorious sunshine on Troutdale Pinnacle; the rest of the weekend was spent dodging showers on Sergeant Crag Slabs (mid afternoon rain) and scratching around the Bowderstone and Honister Boulders trying to find some dry rock. Compare that to this year where we've had two months of no significant rainfall and people being confined to quarters. Of course the callout figures are higher this year, but how much higher than 2018?

3
 TobyA 02 Jun 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> That should tempt the scum away from the outdoors

I've just read a related discussion in a Facebook mountaineering/walking group - there we had "chavs", "the great unwashed", "scum", and someone who wanted the "scum" classed as "vermin" so he could "shoot them on sight" and so on. References to shopping centres and Benidorm there as well.

I don't think them and us, particularly when it seems to have a class aspect to it, is very helpful. Look at Rob's comments in the article about echo chambers - we can fume and dehumanize other people in our little outdoorsy bubbles but what's that going to do help anyway?

It feels a bit like how "cyclists" (lycra louts, MAMILs, red-light jumping scum etc.) have been turned into a group, which is then easy to hate. We've seen how particularly certain commentators and newspapers do that, and it means they aren't anymore just being seen as people who happen for that hour to be riding a bike.

I see plenty of litter and ridiculous behaviour around the parts of the Peak District where I live, but it's not everyone who isn't a "normal walker/climber/cyclist" who is doing it.

5
 Andy Hardy 02 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

Fair point, I was just feeling pretty angry. I don't necessarily think it's a class thing though anybody who starts a fire/leaves litter is scummy if they arrived in a Bentley or a Corsa

 Little Rascal 02 Jun 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

This is very sad to see, Bamford was pristine a couple of weeks ago with birds everywhere.

Last week on a local walk we saw some young guys picnicking by the river. By the time we returned they had left and chucked their disposable barbeque under the nearest hedge next to an old oak. I was fortunate I looked closely and found it and was able to make it safe and remove the rubbish.

I was obviously very angry but since then I've been thinking. This incident was a turning point for me. I'm always saddened by litter but despite thinking about it I've never got so far as picking it up and removing it. I've decided that from now on - especially with such massive increased pressure - it's my responsibility. And I'm going to start taking bags/gloves with me and remove litter where I can. I want them to be my crags, so the litter is my problem.

Jon

 ebdon 02 Jun 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH 

I've been out in the peak a lot recently (as i'm relatively local and everywhere else is a bit to far to drive in a day) and have been pretty shocked by what I've seen.  I'm not one to go in for having a go at 'Chavs' or whatever, after all, I'm out there enjoying the natural environment, why shouldn't everyone? I've also got a lot of sympathy for many who my have been cooped up in flats, with no gardens in the last few weeks wanting to get out.  I even had a brief chat with a family having a BBQ are around Lockerbrook outdoor center, on Snake Pass last week, asking them to put it on stones to avoid burning the grass, at the time i thought is it elitist of me to tell them its dangerous, to put it out and to go home?

However my faith in humanity has taken a dive in the last few days, I was shocked a few weeks ago to read of cars being vandalized around Thorpe - totally out of order i thought, but after driving through there yesterday evening i was nearly out vandalizing cars myself...

I spent yesterday climbing in Dovedale, we got there early before the crowds and the carpark was like a rubbish dump, it was fecking awful. some National trust volunteers were doing a sterling job but there was literally tonnes of pic nic, BBQ waste plus human waste everywhere, I got a bin bag off the NT guys and walked along the path for about 10 minutes doing a liter pick before the bag was so heavy i could barley carry it.  when i left the crag in the evening it was possible worse. It made me really sad.

I also witnessed similar scenes at the top of Snake pass on Saturday (after a great day out climbing on Kinder, cant believe I've never been here before), I spend a lot of time in the PDNP, I've seen it busy, but I've never seen this level of littering or antisocial parking and driving as i have over the last two weeks.

I don't know what the answer is but I worry unless something changes it will make access to these places by all users, including climbers, considerably more difficult. 

 wercat 02 Jun 2020
In reply to ebdon:

took a bike ride down to Glenridding (no lycra worn here) and there are aluminium cans everywhere - every layby, beside the road, farm gateways etc.  By far the most common seemed to be "Red Bull".

I got a very very detailed look at them as a pothole took out my front innertube on the outward and the other exploded with a double puncture on the return trip, possibly delayed response to the original pothole.  The repair failed after 5 miles or so and i had to push the bike home about 12 miles, saw an awful lot of filthy scum-litter of all types along those roads.  Better was a low flying V22 Osprey over Heughscar hill.

I can't agree that "Scum" is an inappropriate description:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-52889903

Post edited at 14:54
 C Witter 02 Jun 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

There are so many issues condensed here, it's hard to know where to begin.

The Covid-19 situation has probably led to a concentration of people in particular areas, as restrictions narrow the options available for people. Closure of carparks and facilities may also account for some of these issues; people with rubbish but nowhere to dispose of it; toilets out of use, etc.

A more general issue is urbanisation and the lack of green space, which puts particular pressures on national parks. Meanwhile, other important green spaces remain under-utilised: e.g. whilst the Central Fells are rammed, the west coast of Cumbria is relatively unknown and frustratingly difficult to explore by public transport.

Then there is land management: some practices (e.g. burning of heather on grouse moors; general deforestation) make green spaces so much more vulnerable to drought and fire. This links with a lack of investment in the context of austerity in conservation and ranger services. Skeleton services have to deal with the effects of mass tourism. Climate change is the other elephant in the room; the effects of this demand more investment in conservation, as eco-systems come increasingly under threat - but a decade of austerity has decimated our ability to cope with these issues.

Beyond this, there is a lack of awareness and education. Perhaps there should be more education at school about appreciating and conserving our green spaces, but schools get lumped with solving almost everything. One of the issues is that the fragmentation of land ownership and management, combined with the individualisation of the public sphere, means that there are few (or no?) organisations who seem genuinely capable of communicating at a mass level the important and popular values of appreciating and conserving the limited natural resources we have.

Finally, there is the general dehumanisation of our society, which is so unequal and brutalising, that I suspect many people do not see themselves as part of society, or communities, or even as having political agency or responsibility. The middle-class sneer that these people are "scum" better suited to the Arndale Centre only plays into this sense that the urban working-class do not have (are not allowed) a stake in the ideological mirage that is "the Great British Countryside".

We often imagine "the Great Outdoors" as an escape from society, but these places cannot escape the destructive politics of the twenty-first century.

Post edited at 15:12
 misterb 02 Jun 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Dartmoor is no different literally every pull in has had a van in it parked up awning out etc and quite a few are just driving straight on to open spaces to set up their little campsites

I've seen large family groups running off into the paths with pop up tents and numerous cool boxes under the arm

Loads of tents some hidden and some in plain view with fires and barbecues going on

Found a group of about 12 young people having a nice little party/over night camp the other night although when i went back there was no rubbish so good on them for that

The good weather has just made everyone yearn for getting out in it and if that's breaking the rules then i don't think they care. 

Can't blame it all on the young uns either as it appears an even spread of age groups

At least litter has not been too bad tho at dart meet it looked like the bins were properly over flowing and spitchwick had a conspicuous number of fire pits and the younger generation pouring with the tunes up loud the other day

 profitofdoom 02 Jun 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Good article, thanks, Dan. Some disturbing news there

When I read your title "Increase in Problem Behaviour" I thought it might be more of the same familiar story. But it isn't at all

Thanks again

 Johntherock 02 Jun 2020

In that hot summer of 2018, I was working occasionally as a shore angling guide/tutor on the Cardigan Bay coast, something I hope to get back into later this year or next, depending on how CV-19 events pan out. Anyway, one evening a customer and I fished into the dusk at Ynyslas, near Borth, and as we walked back there was a very detectable whiff of stuff burning. Getting closer, I located the source of this smell. Someone had enjoyed their barbecuse, then up-ended said "disposable" item into a load of sand full of driftwood fragments. Coals were still red-hot. The tinder-dry dunes of Ynyslas started about a metre away. Oh, and they had placed a couple of large stones on top of it, for some unknown purpose (!)....

I had my standard 2 litre water bottle with me and it took several walks back down to the sea to get sufficient water to extinguish the heat. The first few simply billowed off as steam. As I said to the customer, "This is a National Nature Reserve, FFS". The "disposable barbecue" really needs to be disinvented ASAP.

 

Post edited at 15:24
 Myfyr Tomos 02 Jun 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Some cold and wet weather from tomorrow might help...  unfortunately.

Post edited at 15:40
 Dark-Cloud 02 Jun 2020
In reply to Johntherock:

>  The "disposable barbecue" really needs to be disinvented ASAP.

I have been saying this for years, just stop selling them, while we are at it make releasing Chinese lanterns and helium balloons a criminal offence.

 DavidEvans 02 Jun 2020

What a nightmare - gutted to see those photos of Bamford on fire

But let's face it, the current crisis has been handled abysmally from start to, well, no where near the finish really. There have been a few positives among the general chaos, but I suspect that the over night shift from 'local access only' to 'you can go to pretty much wherever you want' has not helped. All of the various governing bodies and land organisations were making sensible preparations for a phased return to the outdoors and, to a large extent, these were made redundant over night when King BoJo turned up to announce that we could pretty much do what we wanted again. A little more notice would perhaps have been helpful. But this in no way excuses lobbing litter and lighting fires everywhere - pretty basic concepts to grasp for even folk who have never ventured further than their local shopping mall, I should think. 

As for the countryside getting busier - it's hardly surprising given a) today's social media/selfie culture and b) the volume of books/blogs/vids/photos advertising every last secret spot/bothy/island/walk/waterfall/pool/layby/wild camping spot/crag/boulder/atom. Actually, I'm going to write a more constructive piece for UKC on this latter point - the balance between spreading the word and encouraging others to venture out versus spoiling other peoples enjoyment of quiet places, for personal gain – because it is an issue that is becoming irksome (for me).

Post edited at 15:52
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 Johntherock 02 Jun 2020
In reply to Dark-Cloud:

Fully agree with those points too!

 GrahamD 02 Jun 2020
In reply to DavidEvans:

It's not the number of people that's the problem.   Its their behaviour.  Deciding to dump rubbish is nothing to do with the handling of the current crisis.  Its plain illegal and antisocial behaviour. 

1
 fred99 02 Jun 2020
In reply to C Witter:

Closure of carparks and facilities may also account for some of these issues; people with rubbish but nowhere to dispose of it; toilets out of use, etc.

But they do have somewhere to put their rubbish - the same car boot (and now empty bags) that the stuff was in when they got there. There is NO excuse for not taking the detritus of a picnic home when people have got there in great big metal box with a special section to carry things.

 Å ljiva 02 Jun 2020
In reply to fred99: have to say after reading some of the reports I was beginning to worry about driving up yesterday to meet my mum for a walk and a picnic in the Peak but it’s more or less the half way point, I haven’t seen her since Christmas, and I figured if plan A didn’t work we’d be able to find somewhere quietish. 

However, I’ve never seen Froggatt so quiet, there was space in the parking lay-by all day and not many people around at all, those that were tended to be more towards the car park at Curbar.  Weather was lovely, no litter etc. A really nice day and only shame was not being able to sleep up there in the van.... hopefully soon... 

 Little Rascal 02 Jun 2020
In reply to ebdon:

> ... got a bin bag off the NT guys and walked along the path for about 10 minutes doing a liter pick before the bag was so heavy i could barley carry it.  

Is there any protocol on disposal of bags of litter you pick up? It would make it much easier for people to help litter pick if they knew what to do with it. I suspect many are the same as me: really caring but ill prepared to do much. Some clear info or strategy would help overcome the inertia.

> I don't know what the answer is but I worry unless something changes it will make access to these places by all users, including climbers, considerably more difficult. 

I wonder if a coordinated strategy on litter removal is something the BMC or UKC could promote? It would be a way for climbers and responsible hill users to distance themselves from the antisocial behaviour and potentially gain the respect of locals and the park authority? 

 ebdon 02 Jun 2020
In reply to Little Rascal:

Normally I just take it home, but this stuff was rank and would have filled my wheelie bin up! Fortunately there are some skips in the carpark at dovedale. 

The NT guys did tell us to be careful as there was a lot of soiled wet wipes and nappies about which required more PPE then I normally go climbing with.

 olddirtydoggy 02 Jun 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Seems after the last relaxation it's gone nuts out there, we've never seen carnage like this before. It's not just the national parks and wilder places but even the local woods and green areas on the city edges are getting trashed.

It would be nice to see the wider media pick up on this story and give it more coverage than the margins. If we can make it as socially unacceptable as possible it might change habits.

+1 for banning disp bbq's for a few weeks.

 Siward 02 Jun 2020
In reply to C Witter:

That's a thoughtful post but the littering scum are correctly described as that and they alone hold the responsibility for it. 

1
In reply to C Witter:

> people with rubbish but nowhere to dispose of it

I'm pretty sure that domestic refuse collection has continued throughout the entire lockdown period.

If there is no bin, TAKE YOUR RUBBISH HOME.

Whether you are in a town, or in the country, if you drop litter, you are dirty, inconsiderate scum.

 shantaram 02 Jun 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I live in the Lake District and can echo a lot of what is said in the article and the comments. In the last week or so, the litter, parking issues and crowds have been shockingly bad around the lakeshores and river beauty spots. Whereas the hills and crags have been peaceful. It seems to me that the usual visitors to the Lake District are still largely staying away, but there are a lot more folk coming who wouldn't normally visit, who unfortunately don't have the same respect for nature and local residents. I'm all for every section of society having the opportunity to enjoy Britain's beautiful places, but I've found the lack of respect shown recently in the Lake District to be shocking and depressing.      

 Skodas 03 Jun 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

I agree with most of what has been written here about the sad state of what has become Britain's littering, consumeristic, disposable culture. As a Sheffield resident who has climbed, cycled and run in the Peak over the last decade and a half it has clearly got significantly worse as of late. It's good to hear of people actively picking up litter and acting of stewards of the natural environment; I am increasingly trying to do my bit in this regard. As mentioned before in this thread, I think it would be amazing if UKC could take a much more activist stance regarding this stewardship of the natural environment. As an organisation with significant readership and sway, UKC could be pushing for climbers, walkers, cyclists and runners to take litter bags to car parks/crags and habitually clear the area. They could be offering guidance for dealing with those using barbecues in moorland areas. UKC could be more vociferous in protecting the areas that we love. Surfers did this by forming 'surfers against sewage', and they did this without the benefit of the internet and a widely-read forum to spread the message. UKC has loads of decent people contributing to its news stories and message boards - however without any concrete action it runs the risk of being an amoral voice in a time of increased participation of the sport. 

 ianstevens 03 Jun 2020
In reply to Skodas:

> I agree with most of what has been written here about the sad state of what has become Britain's littering, consumeristic, disposable culture. As a Sheffield resident who has climbed, cycled and run in the Peak over the last decade and a half it has clearly got significantly worse as of late. It's good to hear of people actively picking up litter and acting of stewards of the natural environment; I am increasingly trying to do my bit in this regard. As mentioned before in this thread, I think it would be amazing if UKC could take a much more activist stance regarding this stewardship of the natural environment. As an organisation with significant readership and sway, UKC could be pushing for climbers, walkers, cyclists and runners to take litter bags to car parks/crags and habitually clear the area. They could be offering guidance for dealing with those using barbecues in moorland areas. UKC could be more vociferous in protecting the areas that we love. Surfers did this by forming 'surfers against sewage', and they did this without the benefit of the internet and a widely-read forum to spread the message. UKC has loads of decent people contributing to its news stories and message boards - however without any concrete action it runs the risk of being an amoral voice in a time of increased participation of the sport. 

Whilst an laudible thing to do, this is treating the symptoms rather than the actual issue. If the litter bugs arrive in the countryside to find their rubbish from the last bbq/picnic has been tidied away, they'll assume that this is always going to be the case - and if it's tidied up for them, then why do they need to do it themselves? Far better IMO to put efforts into educating those outside the echo chamber and possibly new to the outdoors. Signs at carparks/common car parking spots, bins, wider education and some responsibility of those with experience of the outdoors to help. Its not too hard to mention to someone with a BBQ that they need to keep it of the grass and help them to do so, or to mention to people dumping rubbish that it won't get tidied up and they need to remove it. 

 galpinos 03 Jun 2020
In reply to Skodas:

For a long time, a rubbish bag has been in my sac every time I go out walking/climbing/bouldering. Rubbish gets dropped, both deliberately and accidentally, and I believe if we all picked up 1, 2, 5, 10 etc bits of litter every time we were out, the hills and crags would be a nicer place.

However, this should not mean that the responsibility should lie with the litter dropper in the first place. Education, instruction and reminders should be implemented to ensure people know what behaviour is expected. We should be investing in some new signs:

https://twitter.com/NorthleesBill/status/1268079650946846726?s=20

From the party crews leaving disposable BBQs, to the boulderers leaving fag buts, fingertape and playing music through portable speakers, to the van lifers leaving car parks surround by excrement and toilet paper, we all need to be considerate of others and the environment we are in.

Post edited at 11:05
 galpinos 03 Jun 2020
In reply to Little Rascal:

> I wonder if a coordinated strategy on litter removal is something the BMC or UKC could promote? It would be a way for climbers and responsible hill users to distance themselves from the antisocial behaviour and potentially gain the respect of locals and the park authority? 

The BMC have the Hills to Oceans campaign:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/hills-2-oceans-returns-for-2020#:~:text=Since%20th....

 C Witter 03 Jun 2020
In reply to fred99:

Yeh, I know. But, still some people are reluctant to put, say, tissues used to wipe their ass or disposable bbqs in their cars. It makes me angry too, but, unfortunately being angry isn't enough to solve the problem.

 C Witter 03 Jun 2020
In reply to captain paranoia:

Unfortunately, whilst being angry might be justified, it isn't a solution.

1
 C Witter 03 Jun 2020
In reply to Siward:

The term "scum" has very classist connotations, in this context, which are probably unhelpful. We can say: people are responsible for their own litter. But, the fact is, individualising this as a personal moral responsibility that some selfish people are not upholding does not lead to any concrete solutions. If we care emotionally about these places, we need to ensure that resources are invested to do the work of caring for these places. We should recognise the roles government has played in this, from the way in which it has unilaterally relaxed the lockdown without properly involving or notifying other bodies, to the way in which it has decimated local authority budgets, to the inability to deal strategically with people's (unequal) access to green space - something acutely foregrounded by Covid-19. Why politicise it? Because this is how you see large-scale meaningful changes.

Post edited at 11:26
4
 GrahamD 03 Jun 2020
In reply to C Witter:

I totally disagree.  Whatever the government's shortcomings (and they are legion), it is not them dropping litter, nor would it be them being listened to even if they said don't do it.

You can't keep blaming other people when you are palpably and avoidably doing something antisocial.

1
 fred99 03 Jun 2020
In reply to C Witter:

> Yeh, I know. But, still some people are reluctant to put, say, tissues used to wipe their ass or disposable bbqs in their cars. It makes me angry too, but, unfortunately being angry isn't enough to solve the problem.


Tissues/Bog Roll can be buried, or at the very least a hole/dip can be used and rocks used to completely cover same. In time this will rot and return to nature.

BBQ stuff leads to fires - therefore why shouldn't these people be arrested and charged with Arson or Criminal Damage, at the very least littering, with the fines involved a couple of hundred pounds seems to be the norm, so why aren't the laws applied ?

We can be angry, we can also report to the Police, and make written statements. If the Police don't think it's worth their while then maybe the Fire Brigade can convince them otherwise.

1
 fred99 03 Jun 2020
In reply to C Witter:

> The term "scum" has very classist connotations, in this context, which are probably unhelpful. We can say: people are responsible for their own litter. ….

I think you'll find that the overwhelming majority of the "scum" do not come from the landed gentry. They are the sort of people that I spend my life trying to avoid by NOT going to city centre pubs on a Friday or Saturday night, by NOT going to Benidorm or Ibiza in summer, and so forth.

These people are used to getting pi$$ed, swearing, fighting, chucking their rubbish about, and generally making a nuisance of themselves - the Police spend far too much time dealing with them normally. We should not allow it to be acceptable for them to transfer their antisocial activities elsewhere just so that they can carry on as normal whilst everyone else has their life turned upside down.

2
 zb1 03 Jun 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

What is the best advice if you see someone with a BBQ? Is it a 999 fire brigade call or a 101 non-emergency police call? Do the BMC or any of the Park Authorities have an official stance?

 C Witter 03 Jun 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

Remember: it's not me doing something antisocial; nor am I blaming the government per se. But, moving beyond the individual act, the government has created a context in which these individual acts are harder to manage and resolve.

 jassaelle 03 Jun 2020
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

it's pissing me off so much! It's true I do believe it is the people that don't normally go to these places and are tempted by them because the commercial places they normally hang out are shut. I don't necessarily think it's 'chavs' or whatever - actually a lot of my middle class female friends have been going places they don't normally go to and having picnics and bbqs, but I think it's a lack of education/appreciation for them and what it gives others. For them it's just an alternative and nice to get out maybe, but for others the outdoors is like therapy - it gives them life, hope, and I don't think people realise that these places are really special for a lot of people. And they definitely have no knowledge about access agreements and probably arn't even aware of the fire risks.

I think a start is just education. is there anyway for signs and posters to be put up in these spots, can social media be used for us all to spread awareness about this to our friends and family?

Blame isn't going to work. Let's do what we can, starting with the people that we know, to tackle it.

 C Witter 03 Jun 2020
In reply to fred99:

There is a huge and complex picture in front of you, and you're only focusing on one corner. There have been fires on many bits of moorland where grouse shooting leads to a form of land management that has enormous environmental impacts: flooding, fires, release of CO2 stored in peat, massive damage to biodiversity, trapping and killing of animals; and, to boot, problems with access for walkers and climbers. Most of the land in the UK is privately owned, and there are many other land management issues beyond grouse moors. A further bitter irony is that these landowners often get massive payouts of public money to "conserve" land they are only dubiously looking after, whilst some of them (the Duke of Westminster springs to mind, since he owns Clougha nearby me) are serial tax avoiders. These toff vandals are far worse and have a far bigger impact than working-class people out trying to grab a bit of life.

Post edited at 15:15
4
In reply to zb1:

> What is the best advice if you see someone with a BBQ? Is it a 999 fire brigade call or a 101 non-emergency police call? Do the BMC or any of the Park Authorities have an official stance?

Funnily enough this was raised within a Peak Area Access Reps Meeting that was held over Zoom last night.

Anecdotally we've been informed by an ex-fireman that the best thing to do is call 999, then leave the fire service to decide how best to handle the situation; however, we're going to see if we can get an official/current response which we can then promote as best practise.

With that in mind, watch this space...

 fred99 03 Jun 2020
In reply to C Witter:

What you are talking about has been going on for some time, and many (if not most) of us agree with you.

However this latest bout of plain uncaring vandalism has got to be dealt with before it becomes accepted practice, because if it isn't then any landowner will claim grounds to prevent access to just about anywhere. Do you really want to give the landed gentry yet more ammunition ?

 Skodas 03 Jun 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

> Whilst an laudible thing to do, this is treating the symptoms rather than the actual issue. If the litter bugs arrive in the countryside to find their rubbish from the last bbq/picnic has been tidied away, they'll assume that this is always going to be the case - and if it's tidied up for them, then why do they need to do it themselves? Far better IMO to put efforts into educating those outside the echo chamber and possibly new to the outdoors. Signs at carparks/common car parking spots, bins, wider education and some responsibility of those with experience of the outdoors to help. Its not too hard to mention to someone with a BBQ that they need to keep it of the grass and help them to do so, or to mention to people dumping rubbish that it won't get tidied up and they need to remove it. 

So carry on as normal then? 

 ianstevens 03 Jun 2020
In reply to Skodas:

> So carry on as normal then? 

Clearly for some people this is not normal - rather than actually talk to people they'd rather whine online about how "scum" are "destroying" the "natural" environment whilst not doing anything about it other than tutting when out and about. We need to engage and help to educate people. 

As an aside, I'l usually pick up a few small bits of litter every time I'm out. It's impossible to keep up with the current mess without giving up days of time to sort out other peoples shit.

 C Witter 03 Jun 2020
In reply to fred99:

> What you are talking about has been going on for some time, and many (if not most) of us agree with you.

> However this latest bout of plain uncaring vandalism has got to be dealt with before it becomes accepted practice, because if it isn't then any landowner will claim grounds to prevent access to just about anywhere. Do you really want to give the landed gentry yet more ammunition ?

No... I want to deal with it, like you. I'm just unsure how. Many will turn to the police or harsher penalties, as this kind of authoritarian reflex has become deep rooted since the 1970s - despite palpably failing. Not only is this response unlikely to be policeable, it is also likely to be policed in an unequal way and to further stigmatise certain communities. Others will take a kind of "turn the other cheek and lead by example" response, hoping that if they can get together a bunch of like-minded people for the odd litterpick, that will be enough. Unfortunately, laudable as it is, I don't think it's likely to work - especially in an area like the Lakes. It can definitely help, but there's too much ground to cover.

Looking into the issue more, I think this article is right - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/29/litterers-wont-change... - that a big part of the issue is at production. Less packaging means less litter. But, I don't think that will be enough either.

My own inclination is toward longer-term solutions that also help us make land management and access to green space more equal, more democratic and more sustainable.

Post edited at 17:18
 Jim Hamilton 03 Jun 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

I don't think education/engaging/communicating is going to work with people who have this mindset. They know what they are expected to do, but just don't care.  Maybe more effective to press ahead reducing single use packaging (whatever happened to this aim?).  Perhaps some sort of environmental tax as with plastic bags on prevalent littering items.  

 Skodas 03 Jun 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

I think we are largely in agreement. Whatever the methods I feel it is time for people and organisations like ukc to start taking action rather than just lamenting about the state of the environment. Personally I think littering and irresponsible barbecues  could be turned into a taboo if more people challenged the perpetrators. The most emasculating feeling for people is to be given their litter back to them in front of their friends. I have done this a number of times and it has always had the same effect. Person looks shocked and doesn't say anything. Obviously people should be careful about their own safety but climbers in a group are often in a good place to do this. I don't think people litter more when they see other people (especially families with kids) doing a litter pick - I think it shames people into clearing their mess up.

 Only a Crag 07 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

In fairness there is some truth to it look at how many Brits go to Benidorm annually, a million visits, those that go and pollute mind and body there are probably a little tired to wreck the Lakes afterwards plus the football season ends/starts before after ones pilgrimage to Spain

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/06/we-need-the-brits-benidorm-b...


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