UKH

For the second time in the last week or so I have seen people climbing at Rivelin ( through binoculars from the top of Wyming Brook).  I was of the impression that this is currently a no no.  I believe that BMC advice is to stay away from the crags and hills also.  Am I missing something here or are these people being being irresponsible and ingnoring best advice not to mention jeopardising the reputation of climbers in general?

*IF* they live locally and they are able to distance I don't see a great issue.

However, I suspect more likely this, as you say: "Am I missing something here or are these people being being irresponsible and ingnoring best advice not to mention jeopardising the reputation of climbers in general?".

How could you keep 2 meters distance from your climbing partner though? Unless you live with them. I think the reputation damage to climbing from this will be quite big as well. The BMC guy on here said that a few crags have already been permanently banned to climbers because of people climbing during lockdown

I'm sure there's another 5 threads covering all this material.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rock_talk/how_outdoor_climbings_return_be...

There are, to be fair, quite a lot of climbing couples.  I know a few myself.

Probably fairly easily if you set up a top rope and belay at the bottom to avoid topping out near the belayer. And safer obviously.

We did some top-roping the weekend before lockdown. Went to a quiet crag, kept our distance from each other and took some handwashing kit.

Not sure Rivelin is a good choice, checked the RAD and it's private land with some sensitivities with the landowner.

Does the 2 m rule apply for a few hour's contact though? I just thought it was a guide for passing people in the shops etc. When I should 'safe' I probably end up spraying the bottom of the crag with saliva (most people will, probably). Cragging with somebody not in your household isn't really in the spirit of things (and neither is Cragging with somebody in your household in my opinion but this has been done to death already).

Hang on, this is pretty serious if true!

Where? 

He said it in one of the mega-threads where it was already kicking off. He didn't want to give details as things are sensitive right now but we are definitely losing crags due to people climbing during lockdown, after years of hard work by the BMC. I can't remember his name, I think it's E. Jones, the person who made the BMC statement that we shouldn't be climbing.

Good question that it'd be good to get an authoritative answer on, not least because it might persuade people that climbing at the moment is not a good idea.

Not sure, I'm not a virologist but when I get out again I'll do a bit more research. Although you're not actually anywhere near to each other most of the time you're climbing. And outside you can be cautious and stay well apart.

It's used in the long queues at shops, for maybe 20 mins based on when I've been at peak times. Not sure what workplaces with seating do when you're there all day?

Err, top-roping. Belayer could stand well away in case.

Did you see that I mentioned pre-lockdown? Remember the days when you could crag with your mates?

On your last point, that wasn't directed at you sorry. I wasn't saying you were still climbing.

No problem.

The 2m doesn't come from passing people.  It comes from the principle that spending at least 15 minutes indoors within 2m of an infected person is likely to cause spread (well, that certainly pretty much predicts when I'll get a cold!).  The rest of it is risk assessment and caution.

Dave Turnbull is doing a Q&A tomorrow on the BMC Facebook page.

That's encouraging in some ways. I wonder if it's based on good science.

Perfect place. You couldn’t see them without binoculars, isolated quiet place, out of sight, within walking distance or a short drive of many housing estates.

I don't know whether this is true but you can imagine it happening and is exactly why we shouldn't be climbing. We all know the risks of injury are small; it is all about maintaining access. I'd  imagine in some rural areas that climbing now would be viewed in a very poor light. 

Here is a link to the post Elfyn made.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rocktalk/how_outdoor_climbings_return_be_...

Shame it got lost in the middle of a huge thread.

Yes the access thing really bothers me (in addition to spreading the virus and getting injured etc but this has been done to death). The BMC have done amazing work and climbing access was really amazing, especially when you compare it to another sport like caving which is sometimes a shitshow outside of the yorkshire dales . I think a lot of climbers take it for granted and now 'we'might have taken a big step backwards.

Great! Do you know if it'll be recorded for luddites who don't have Facebook accounts?

It should be public so you won’t need an account as far as I’m aware. Might be wrong! 

In Norway it's actually a recommendation of 1-2m distance from one another, and 1m is being adopted mostly in shops, etc. It could well be that 1m is more than enough for any brief periods of close-ish contact at the start and end of climbs.

The Severn Area Rescue Association has asked this evening on their Facebook Page for people not to climb as climbers are slowly returning to crags in the Wye Valley

The rules are clear. Exercise is only permitted alone or with other household members. So climbing with non household members is not permitted, whether or not you ‘distance’. 

I agree with you! We shouldn't be climbing now. Even if we think we can try and pick holes in the law/guidance (and get crags banned in the process) we shouldn't be such junkies that we can't just leave it for a few weeks. 

Depends if someone coughs or sneezes. If they do, I imagine 2m might not be enough but clearly that’s better than 1m which is better than right next to someone in a packed Tube carriage. These are only minimum guidelines after all. Equally you can be very close to someone for a short while and all could be fine. These things aren’t absolute after all.

But this is hypothetical as in the U.K. exercise with non household members is not permitted currently. Sounds like Norway is more chilled but that’s because it seems to have got a better grip on things.

Given it's been 4 weeks of lock down already, are we looking at a few months or longer?

Really? At which crags, I wonder. I live in the Wye Valley, and after March 23rd I was alarmed at seeing a few people still regularly climbing at highly visible crags (especially Wyndcliffe Quarry), but from what I've seen, the activity has gradually tailed off, and it's now been over a week since I've seen anybody climbing.

Well a few months then. If you* can't do without climbing for a few months then there's something wrong (obviously not the case for professionals). 

*You as in 'one' not you specifically.

P.S. I'm not saying we shouldn't be very pissed off at not climbing for ages, I was really looking forward to getting out this spring and I feel gutted at the Norway trip I've binned off, but in exceptional circumstances such as these we can do without surely. There is more in life. 

Well done you.

"I was of the impression that this is currently a no no.  I believe that BMC advice is to stay away from the crags and hills also.  Am I missing something here or are these people being being irresponsible and ignoring best advice not to mention jeopardising the reputation of climbers in general?"

It may be irresponsible if they aren't social distancing and from different households. Whether it's a 'no-no' or whether it ignores advice or not I can't get too worked up about... 

Perfect place. For possibly losing access, which nearly happened in 2004, should the landowner take a dim view of people climbing there at the moment. Climbers on the Needle or Blizzard Ridge can be seen from the road as you drive along.

One problem is, of course, that not all climbers use UKC or are in the BMC.

I would guess the longer it goes on the more people will go climbing. Maybe some people will get used to it and get more into biking or running. Obviously those with access to decent home walls and boards will have less temptation. And some people aren't that keen anyway, so it won't feel too onerous.

Yes. I get the whole 'climbing is more than a hobby, it's a lifestyle, it's an addiction' thing that you sometimes hear from people, but in an emergency we should be able to drop it for a bit. 

Agreed. Not a much of a sacrifice, other things you can be doing. 

Yep. Climbing can be a bit of a cult sometimes. 

A couple of years back at the end of June I was in a pub in Northern Ireland. With the traditional marching season approaching, some young lads were out fixing flags onto lamp posts and I asked the landlord of the pub who was putting the flags up. His answer was, "Every town has its half-wits.  These are ours".

Similarly, for those climbing outside. Really, it can wait.

T.

You're always going to get a difference of opinion. The effect you have on the emergency is hard to quantify, and this 'bit' is going to be quite a bit.

There seems to be a push to bring the issue of losing access to the fore.

What are the thoughts on Biking and Running on this? Yes I know they can be done solo but you see cyclist all togged up in their lycra clearly having done 50/60miles rides. yes they're on their own but is it a sensible thing to do? Same goes for runners taking themselves off to remote areas running big distance.

Not trying to point fingers and say they're doing their hobby so why can;t I just wondering what the difference is between going bouldering on your own or with a housemate at a remote crag? 

Thoughts on a postcard!

Because the government said it’s ok to bike and climb and the BMC have stated not to climb outdoors on rock. Also it’s about perceived risk people believe climbing is risky whether it is or not.

So in order to avoid social contact you would have to go somewhere obscure in order for there not to be everyone and his dog climbing there already. Chances because it’s obscure the access will be a bit dodgy so it will give the landowner a chance to ban it.

You never see those people climbing when it's raining, though

FTF has cycling got to do with this thread ? Or Lycra ?

Ye true,

I was just musing more than anything.

Just seems if you're accident prone on a bike (i have a mate who is constantly falling off injuring themself, punctures etc) then you run more risk of needing an ambulance than somebody with tons of pads having a bimble. 

On the flipside you can break your neck putting your pants on!

As you say, both are essentially harmless. 

You don’t see people climbing at night either, at least not deliberately!

It was more the thread title saying clibing during lockdown and I thought i'd come in with a side swipe and a different sport.

I'm glad yet again that Scotland has sensible access legislation unlike south of the border! But there will be a few places best avoided for now, e.g. Limekilns and Traprain Law.

Ive done a lot of climbing at night. It's surprising how many people do it! 

There were people at Wintours Leap on Saturday and Sunday. As you probably know there is a popular walking path under Fly Wall and along Wintours as well as above Woodcroft Quarry so people are spotted.

Interesting. Who knows, they might have been climbing well within their grade but I’d say Wintour’s is quite low down the list of crags I would hypothetically go to right now. Once pulled off a fist sized block (despite testing it) which hit my belayer’a leg - he was ok but very sore. I can see why the rescue team would be concerned.

Perhaps but one group were on Strange Little Girl and didn't look particularly stable. But I think the route they were on is irrelevant if both the BMC sign on the gate and the local rescue team are asking people not to climb. Just going to antagonise for no reason.

Agree. Climbers rely on the goodwill of the residents living above the crag and there’s no need to stir up tension there. And even the easier routes at Wintour’s have to be treated with care...

The thing that bugs me somewhat is the potential double standard if people are walking below the crag but other people can’t climb on it. Obviously climbing, particularly at Wintour’s, is going to be a lot more dangerous than walking, so it’s the right answer in this particular case. It’s not Stanage.

The law allows for that double standard, though, in that you have a right to walk down a public footpath through private land but not to climb unless it's access land.

Also influencing this is the Government suggesting walking, running and cycling as the "recommended" methods of exercise.

Shaftoe crag in Northumberland is now banned.

Going by the notice on the UKC crag page, it's banned while the epidemic is ongoing (could be a while!) but the gist of the message seems to be that it's temporary. One could say that, in practice, that's not much different to people being told by the BMC etc not to climb in the first place. Of course ideally this won't have been an issue in the first place if people hadn't gone there. Looks like the access is via a small road past some cottages so it's not exactly a discreet venue. Hopefully access will be restored in due course as long as people stay away for now. A bigger concern is upsetting already fragile relations somewhere, leading to a permanent ban. A few crags spring to mind...

Yes you are missing something, it's quite evident that there are a number of climbers who don't like to be told what to do and think they have better judgement than the advice being given to them (they are also rather active on UKC too).  From what I've seen, the majority of people aren't climbing at the moment, there are however a few special people who believe they are better informed, and would rather risk access for all of us in order to feed their habits.  The more people 'nip' for a quick local climb, the more it will normalise and soon the crags will be filling up again.  

Is listening to the BMC too right wing for some? Maybe, or maybe people just don't think anything could happen to them as they are climbing 'well within their limits'.  

Any how, don't feel alone, despite the number of thumbs down to your post, you are doing the right thing, and shouldn't feel bad for asking for clarity on here.  

Excellent! Ask your mummy to send a covering note to confirm your achievement and Bear Grylls will send you your Cub Scout Observer badge. 

Or there are just some people that like to think for themselves, realise the guidance is all about social distancing and feel free to use their own brains to interpret their daily lives while still achieving that end. 

Do they also feel free to get crags banned for everyone else? This is after just 2 or 3 weeks of lockdown:

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rocktalk/how_outdoor_climbings_return_be_...

"Two landowners have already told the BMC,  that they are permanently withdrawing hard earned access agreements, as climbers have been on their land (having travelled there by car from built up areas over 20 miles away)  during the lock down period."

It isn't all about social distanceing.  Clearly those "thinking for themselves " should be a bit brighter than they appear to be.

Note that Shaftoe is on Access Land.  The drivable approach road is private, but the farmer allows vehicles as far as the parking area. The approach is also a bridle way. The ‘ban’ at Shaftoe is voluntary. The farmer was alarmed at the number of visitors and concerned about contracting CV during lambing.... He had also noticed a number of discarded tissues and these amplified his concerns.

Shaftoe is also popular with dog walkers and ramblers. To what extent they have stopped visiting I don’t know.

Things will return to some sort of ‘normal’, Shaftoe has not been lost......

So a totally irrelevant comment on this thread.  If you have a problem with other people wearing lycra, probably best start your own thread, eh?

I think it’s more that they like to think about themselves rather than seeing a bigger picture.

I think there is a significant risk of catching the virus from contaminated holds on popular crags/boulders, particularly in this fine dry weather. I read on some American website (can't find again now) that hard, particularly polished rock has similar properties to steel or plastic, on which the virus may be able to survive, not just for hours, but for days (so some climbing walls are cleaning all their holds every single night). No one is mentioning this here.

What on earth is wrong with you?  You're an OE teacher & IML and feel that being this mean to someone is acceptable?  Scuffer has raised valid point given all the information and guidance from the Governement/UKC/MRT/BMC and this is the way that you choose to reply?   

Even if you think that climbing is on the table despite all the guidance, it's comments like that that show just how mature the people who are still climbing really are.  

Surely you can see that it's either no access or all access. Any middle ground isn't fair and it's uncontrollable.  I also don't know the stats but I bet Stanage has more mountain rescue callouts per year than wintours leap.

You climb E5, yes you could go and do a few HVS's and  itd be as safe as going for a walk but that's not the case for everyone.

Like it or not this system will only work with a blanket ban or before we know it the crags will be full again. 

As for Rivelin being a good choice, The only official parking is very small, you have to walk right past a house to get to the crag, and you can literally see people climbing on the crag from one of the busiest A roads in the area. 

For access land, that's legally the case, yes.  For other land, it's not.  A public footpath gives you the right to "pass and repass" (i.e. walk along it) and stop briefly for incidentals e.g. photographs or lunch immediately on or adjacent to the path.  It doesn't allow you to go climbing, unless a route (more likely a scramble) was directly required to proceed along the path.

I'm shocked at how much negativity posts like this are receiving.  I've seen people hounded in local facebook groups for similar posts where people thinking for themselves resort to name calling / impolite / insulting responses.  

I always thought of the climbing community as one large group but it is clear that this is really dividing people. 

It's already been said, this isn't just about social distancing, it's about reducing road traffic accidents, it's about reducing the chances of accidents at the crag, it's about relieving pressure from the services you will need if you have an accident.  

Stats from 2017 MRT England and Wales show they had 2396 call outs for the year (average 6.5 a day).  

Road Traffic Accidents stats from 2018 ONS show on average there are 452 casualties, 68 serious injuries and almost 5 deaths EACH DAY.  

Adding risk to your everyday life is putting the NHS under pressure.  

Having a family member work for the NHS and having had someone quite close to me (not physically before anyone starts) pass away from COVID-19 probably makes my viewpoint slightly more polarised. 

Despite this, it is polarised in the correct orientation that lines up with all the advice from the people we are happy are there when we do need them... I'll mention again , The Government, UKC, The BMC, The MRT.  Climbing right now is the equivalent to giving them all the middle finger.  

There isn't a blanket ban and I can't see the government banning specific sports outside the current guidelines. And those guidelines are likely to be relaxed rather than tightened. I can't see the crags being full in the near future. 

By these arguments should one ever go climbing? 

I'll be more than happy to give the government the middle finger they're a bunch of useless twerps. 

UKC in this instance is not more or less valid than a Newspaper. 

The BMC probably has the right overall message but I have significant disquiet as to how it has been put across and the arguments made. 

the Mountain Rescue Teams have my upmost respect.

I'm not climbing outside at the moment and probably won't be for some time, It goes without saying that even if you thought climbing was wise right now avoiding sensitive locations is vital, but I feel that we should be advocating a responsible return to climbing where possible as soon as possible.   

Well said.

Apologies, access wasnt the right word.

What I was getting at is it should be either 'climbing for all' or 'climbing for no one'. 

Why this is illogical, there will likely be several steps of reducing lockdown one of which might included limiting travel by distances. Would you say that if someone in london can't drive to the peak to climb someone who lives in hathersage should also not climb. What about if you own a large garden and there's some boulders at the bottom of it, should you not climb on those? a home wall in your garage? 

As much as I'd like life to be fair it isn't. 

Home walls (and their construction) are exempt from all forms of injury and virus transmission, didn't you know? 

Belaying is about on par with a picnic in terms of exercise so quite clearly not permitted within the law.

I think that is heading for "de minimis non curat lex".

I've already explained once it was pre-lockdown.

Well it's not is it? I asked what peoples thoughts on cycling and running are during lockdown as I believe they pose a greater risk of injury than going climbing.

Have I stepped on a lycra wearing nerve?

Doctor in an ICU ward said, "Don't go outside, unless you have to", this is much better than "you allowed to go out for exercise".

Only you can decide if you have to, I don't think anyone has to climb, so it's really very simple.

Aside from "I believe" being as unquantifiable as it gets, cycling is a CV exercise and climbing isn't.  If you want to compare going bouldering to anything, compare it to fishing.  Both involve driving to the venue for the majority of people, both provide minimal CV exercise. 

Cycling, running and walking are CV exercises which most people can (and should) do from their front door.

Thanks for clarifying.

Alright, I may as well as publicly. What are people's opinions on driving to Stanage (20 mins drive) to do some low-level traversing at 9am on a weekday?

The access issues must be quite different for one thing.

For me the right to go out is almost all mental. I can get enough CV without leaving the house if I need to. As can pretty much anyone else. But I can't get that feeling of being outside, like I do when I go for a run or bike ride. I've seen people fishing, enjoying the weather and I don't begrudge them. Or the people riding horses in the woods.

They were plainly visible from the dams too. I first spotted them whilst doing a bit of birding, in lieu of climbing!!

I certainly see less of a problem with this than the hordes of paddles boards going up and down the river thames, hundreds of cyclists and runners everywhere in London... it's like everything in the rules, it's hard to believe them when I'm definitely most likely to end up in an NHS bed or catching the virus when running or cycling (both allowed) in totally rammed roads, parks and paths in London. I haven't been climbing, been sticking to the rules, but climbing in Rivelin would have seemed far safer than my cycle last Sunday for sure.

That was kind of my point, ideally it would be no access or full access to a given area. So it might seem hard to justify people (probably mostly locals) using the footpath but other people not being able to climb just above it. So it’s not just about whether you can access a certain area or not, you also have to factor in risk of accident even for a competent team. I’m not sure we actually disagree. Edit - saw your subsequent clarification. I would tend to agree, certainly for any higher risk climbing. However I won’t judge local climbers who are competent and discreet and go to appropriate venues. 

Scuffer went out with his binoculars to a vantage point where he could see Rivelin, and... ..a-ha! Spotted someone climbing. Then ran back here to tell us all about it. Even being charitable you'd have to agree it's a bit... ...sad.

No I don't. Just because I believe that people, adults at least, are responsible for their own actions, their own assessment of risk, their own exercise of their rights, it does not follow that I'm still climbing. I made my own decision (not to climb) just as the people at Rivelin made theirs. We don't know the circumstances of this, so we are in no position to judge.

Furthermore, no, the Government have not told us not to climb. Unsurprisingly they didn't include such a niche activity in their examples of exercise; running, walking, cycling - but they haven't proscribed it. No-one should care two hoots about what UKC says; their opinion is only as valid as that of any other media outlet. Having been involved with MR for many years I can say without hesitation that we are not responsible for policing the mountains, and the plea should have been, "We are standing down for the duration of the outbreak. You won't be rescued. Please think very carefully about what you chose to do." Finally the BMC is our representative body, but not a governing body (outside of competition climbing). Their participation statement highlights we are all responsible for our own involvement and our own actions. Yes, I heeded their guidance in relation to my own circumstances, but it's for others to make their own decisions. Just as the climbers at Rivelin did. And frankly I'm sick to the back teeth of the pontification of the self-appointed Climbing Taliban on here spouting their nonsense. That's why Scuffer received a sarcastic reply.

Clearly not! 😂

I was thinking more about Covid related access restrictions ie risk of spreading it. But you are right that the legal position is not the same there. Plus Wintour’s has had its fair share of access issues over the years, which goes back to my point about stakeholder relations. Although from a pure Covid point of view the path would need to be closed as well if the crag is closed. The fact is, it’s not a particularly ‘safe and solid’ crag. Great adventure climbing but best avoided now. So it’s a combination of factors to my mind. 

Anyone climbing at Rivelin at the moment is an idiot. It will be much better conditions at a shady N to E facing crag. 

Agreed, I think we're on the same page  

The two  things stopping me from low risk bouldering/shunting in the quarry I live next to is that someone will probably get hold of the wrong end of the stick and none of the many other local climbers seem t be doing it..so why should i?  Risk-wise its probably safer than my runs. 

Brilliantly put, I’ve been watching this thread for a while and this entirely sums up my opinion! 

That sarcastic opinion is also the funniest thing I’ve seen in days .

Let’s all chill out a bit please!

No but that's the most important thing. Or do you disagree?

"Clearly those "thinking for themselves " should be a bit brighter than they appear to be."

No need to be insulting.

Minimising load on front line workers is pretty much on a par with social distancing, I'd have thought.  That includes Police, NHS, Fireservice all of whom have to be involved with road traffic incidents.

You keep mentioning RTCs, which is a fair point, but how many RTCs requiring emergency service / hospital assistance are climbers responsible for, especially in the summer months? Besides, we are talking about relatively short journeys and the roads are probably about as safe now as they're ever going to get with the reduced traffic numbers. Of course any driving is not zero risk (few things are in life - you can break a leg falling down the stairs!) but I'd say the risk is remote given the amount of driving people would be doing. As I've said elsewhere, I don't think anyone is advocating driving for hours to get somewhere.

You'd think that, but every time I go shopping I am amazed. Normally, you drive around and may see a small percentage of idiots driving like lunatics. Right now it appears to be a very sizeable percentage of them instead. Not sure what on earth is going on there.

Yes you've really got to get a grasp of the numbers and odds involved in having a major RTA. Mean just think about it for a second, did you really use to consider the possibility of ending up in hospital every time you take a car journey pre covid? If it was that likely why would you drive? The odds of crashing are now even slimmer. 

I've posted this before but it's relevent. Every single time you drive anywhere there is a chance, all be it small but there is a chance you'll hit and kill a child. Every year children get killed on the roads or in cars which crash it's just a fact.

However if we limited all cars to 10mph we'd all but stop that from happening. So why don't we do it? We don't do it because as a society we are prepared to accept a certain number of children's deaths in order to be able to drive at a reasonable speed. No one wants it to be their child but they know it'll have to be someone's yet adults take that risk every day for often unnecessary journeys. 

So yeah driving carries a minute risk of needed to go to hospital, but so does everything, just walking, you only need to slip off a curb and do your ankle in. And is it really much difference morally from doing anything "risky" all winter any year when the underfunded NHS is in another one of its crises? No one wants to waste resources particularly when things are under pressure but we all have made a sport of going out of our way to take in dangerous things and we're happy to do that all other times when we could just stay at home and watch TV.

The NHS / don't get injured thing keeps coming up. The 999 service is very quiet at the moment, people are not going out, accidents are down, calls outs are reduced as people don't want para's round and don't want to end up in hospital.

The other problem with roped climbing, unless your partner stays in the same house, is the possibility of infecting each other.  

I’ve started taking in parts of Froggatt and Curbar edges as part of the daily dog walk. At the moment, I’m hardly seeing anyone, let alone climbers. There’s some fresh chalk on boulder probs in the woods but otherwise,  nothing. It looks like the grass is starting to grow back in areas under the crag. The verges at Curbar Gap have started to recover slowly. 

As a vet I am still working, and as my assistant is furloughed, I'm working every day, and on call 90% of days, so with a branch surgery and main surgery 1 mile from the A1 at each end, I'm travelling on the A1 quite a lot.

I'm finding driving on the A1 actually relaxing, and I can think about things readily on the drive. In fact I'm driving slower (typically 60-68 mph, as opposed to 75-85 mph between slower slots behind lorries), and there is less stress on that section of road. Nevertheless I notice that from Monday this week there has been about double the number of vehicles on the A1.

I just think of the embarrassment I would suffer if I turned up at A and E with sprained ankle etc . I would be more likely to do this bouldering than top roping but people don't understand distinctions of the climbing world. ( However, it's not totally logical as I broke my metatarsal a while ago going for a easy jog. And the way some people are hurtling along on their bikes is certainly more dangerous than most top roping ). But it's not totally about logic. It's about doing the right thing and not appearing to be acting like a wazzock.

The odds of winning the lottery are very, very small.  And yet people win every week.

What matters is what happens to the overall risks as a swell of people take advantage of quiet roads to go and pursue their pastime. It gets a bit more dangerous for everyone out there.

Did you grasp anything I said? Of course people crash, if enough people drive even with low odds someone will eventually screw up. 

The point is a small number of enviable accidents is a price small price to pay for everyone's ability to drive again, even factoring in the minimal effect it'll have on the NHS's ability to deal with CV.

They might be a sun loving bumbly Mark... most trad climbers clearly don't care much about performance or the average UKC logged grade would be well above HS (or even comfort... given the significant numbers always fighting low friction and midges on a typical Stanage windless and humid summer day, when other Peak crags would be cooler and midge free).

But how can anyone call themselves a real climber if they've never run away screaming from Stanage after being engulfed and bitten by a voracious midge swarm 😁

Yes I'm classed as a real climber, or maybe just thick as this hasn't just happened once.

Who are you to judge what minimal effect is ? It's not just NHS beds, it's all the blue light services.  Once they have attended to just one muppet, you have probably put 10 front line emergency workers into isolation for a week.

Crack on, but I’d suggest doing it somewhere a bit less popular with tourists not to draw attention to yourself.

Yes just find a nice crag that you think should be banned for all the rest of us and crack on! And remember, none of this is about the good of the population or anything like that, what you want to do is most important of all. It would be really awful if you couldn't do your hobby for a few weeks during our biggest health emergency in 100 years. 

It's more those who feel the need to regularly repeat this that worry me. Similar madness occurs in the colder months in windy conditions when climbers could be comfortable and unbuffetted elsewhere. There is something about Stanage that is a magnet to stoic masochists.

Isn't there something about climbing in Britain generally that is "a magnet to stoic masochists"?

"Weeks".. months, at the very least if you wait for it to be 'official'. 

Weeks, months, we'll survive without our hobby! People regularly lose weeks, months or years to tendon injuries. Life goes on. 

Correct however how often do we spend months isolated from friends and family, stuck in our homes without the usual displacement activities. Its not quite the same is it. Not to mention that there seems to be a serious danger that any activity, it's not really a hobby and not really a sport but that's not the point, that is not purely for physical exercise is never allowed to be taken up again especially one that so many people have suddenly declared unjustifiably dangerous. 

I think most climbers are happy to not climb if they feel that the reason is justified hence why most of the debates are around whether safer forms of climbing could be justified if socially distant.  

The more I ponder on this the more I realise that although I undoubtedly miss climbing itself I miss far more the community and friendships involved. I think however I'll be able to justify going for a climb before I can justify a night in the pub. My personal concern is that I won't be allowed to.

I agree, I miss everything and I'm having not having a great time through this. I think going climbing is safer and less of a virus risk than going to the pub; sadly I can't see pubs being a thing for several months at least. 

I don't think there's a danger of climbing never being re-allowed though, apart from whatever crags we lose access to due to people climbing during lockdown. Why would it be in the interests of anyone other than a few of the meaner landowners for climbing never to start again? I don't think public opinion is really against it, most of the public couldn't care less (again, apart from the ones becoming anti-climbing due to lockdown). 

We also have the BMC ready to help get climbing going again after this is over. This is another reason I'm in favour of no climbing at all for now; the BMC do loads of great work for us just in terms of getting access to crags so their recommendations are probably for the greater good.

I also do another hobby (caving) where access is a total shitshow and there is no effective body to sort it out (CNCC are wonderful but they are regional and the BCA has broken down). For many caves you either have to know somebody who has a key or you have to write a letter on club-headed paper to an estates office somewhere. It makes me really appreciate just how easy it is for climbing let's: not jeopardise that for the sake of some low-level traversing. 

Well we can agree on that one.

Lovely sarcastic response. 

Still waiting to see the information about the banned crags. The ones that have been listed are a temporary request not to visit due to lambing, which seems negotiated with the land over as per usual. 

Not sure how anyone is gonna get anything banned if the guy above follows my advice and isn't seen, climbs respectfully, quietly, alone and unnoticed.

The BMC rep said he wasn't listing the banned crags because of ongoing sensitivities. The problem with climbing respectfully, quietly, alone and un-noticed is that only a very few can do it. If it's OK for one person then why not for everyone? Then we're back to the honeypot situation we had shortly before lockdown.

I don't get why we can't just drop it for a bit. Is a bit of low-level traversing during an emergency that important?

I think my concern mainly centres around a lack of ever returning to anything like normal. 

If access is so sensitive, surely everyone should know about it in order to comply. Shaftoe crags was one of them and look at the guidance on the RAD, all is fine pending a small bit of down time.

The reason that it is ok for some and not others, is those made life decisions to position themself geographically close to rocks, often with sacrifices in other parts of their lives to enable this. 

This means those people can comply with the government guidelines.

It's a slippery slope though. how close is close? If my mate who lives 2 miles from a crag can go, can I go if I live 4 miles away? Then we're back to the mad rush again.

I get where you are coming from and we aren't helped by the confusing and contradictory guidance. I just think that climbing isn't so important that we can't just put it all on hold for a while, considering what the country is going through.

I am bothered about that but I think after a while it will all be OK again.

I agree and I'd be more inclined to agree if bikers weren't doing marathons and non essentials good weren't being shipped. 

If my colleagues have to go to work in an office and that is legal and my friend can order makeup, I'm sorry but climbing 5 mins walk from my door in a low key nature, is not banned either.

But there is legislation which seems to "ban" climbing because the law says we should all be in our homes unless we have a "reasonable excuse". If the police decided climbing didn't constitute a "reasonable excuse" for you to be out of your house, they could fine you. There will be no case law on this until it happens and gets challenged either successfully or unsuccessfully in the courts.

I think you’re right to an extent but i doubt anyone will ever sound the all clear. I think we as a society need to be aware of this. And make sure that our freedoms come back in-line with the freedoms of business.

i already think it takes the piss that anyone’s expected to work in an office at the moment.

Agreed that you could get fined and agreed that it is at police officers digression.

Disagree that climbing is banned, the 'allowed out for local exercise' lists running and walking as options but absolutely does not say this is a prescriptive list.

Imo, if you are isolating effectively, within 5 mins from home, you are unlikely to get a fine. If you are 20 mins from home or more, the chances greatly increase. 

Ill post the shaftoe guidance for anyone interested. To me, doesn't seem like a problem.

This is the only crag listed as having issues due to covid and I really dont see why the BMC wouldnt share the locations in order to discourage people even further.

Hilariously, the BMC have apparently furloughed access staff. 

Anyway:

"We're currently in isolation here at shaftoe. But unfortunately we still have to work every day as it's our busiest time of year lambing time. Myself and the other workers are having to use the same gates as the public and the climbers. We use these gates more than once a day and none of us can afford to be poorly at this time of year. We would like the crags to remain off limits until this awful pandemic is over and want our own and everyone else's family to remain safe.

Thank you for you time.

Stay safe yourself and our best wishes to you and yours in this awful time."

I agree with you about other groups taking the mick and being far worse than climbers. I've just watched a big mob of people in the street stood clapping for the NHS with a separation of about 20 cm. It doesn't make it any easier to live with not climbing when you see other, 'permitted' things being worse, but what can you do? Saying 'it's not fair, f*ck it, I'm climbing' is another slippery slope.

Unfortunately, as regards access to Rivelin, the only opinion that matters is that of the landowner. It may be that he doesn't have a problem with people climbing there at present, or he may not have made his feelings apparent yet, in which case it would be better to play it safe and avoid the place for a few weeks. It's too good a crag to gamble with.

The 2004 access dispute related to damage to vegetation and is mentioned in the Burbage and Beyond guide.

Dave explained in the BMC Q &A earlier this week (link below) that the BMC have financial problems, in particular because the income from new memberships relating to travel insurance and Mountain Training has all but stopped. They decided to furlough their access policy officer (note that the government has put the post consultation discussion on the current most problematic new bill on hold). The England and Wales access officers are still working. Senior staff and senior volunteers are also involved in access issues and there is approaching a hundred local volunteer access workers.

The BMC and MRs advise that everyone should stop climbing for the moment.

You are right that the advice is unclear and your conscience will determine what you do but you do risk being fined and causing some problematic press 'optics' that could affect all of us.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=544199533170872&id=38139973...

Thanks for the link - I'll have a watch later tonight. 

Obviously I understand and agree there are many challenges. I am also entitled to not agree with their approach, even though I understand many of the reasons why they take said approach.

I get that it's bad form to rock up to a crag armed with rack, ropes etc (even if it's 5 mins from your door) coz it's bad for the image, and encourages other to do the same leading to crowds.  It does make me wonder though, where on the high horse scale does 'climbing' actually start?  i.e. I walk with my daughter  - who, after 5 hours school work each day is going stir crazy - along one of the eastern grit edges.  We go to the end of the edge, then walk back, each way along the path.  All good?  Now, we do the same, but she's hopping along the rocks by the path, like children do.  All good?  Now, there's a big boulder by the path - she scampers up and over that. Climbing?  Hardly.  Messing about on a rock?  Sounds about right.  She's a child.  

The boulder is 4m high. She sees another cluster of rocks near the path, a good 10m high pile of boulders that she bounds up.  Scrambling?  Bouldering?  Climbing?  At what point to the individual judgements pare out here?  What is a climb for one is just messing about on rocks for another. These are things that it seems people are often looking to be offended about, hence the high horse scale.  

I'm fine dicking about on rocks with my daughter.  We leave the rope, racks and harnesses at home.  All good for most?

And who are you? A fall while walking downstairs could result in an ambulance, and time laid up in hospital, think of all the people you'll be putting at risk due to your selfish desire just to use the 2nd floor of your house. Get a sleeping bag out and sleep on the sofa until covid19 ends. 

On one level, a lot of the gritstone edges are ideal for climbing at the moment: on access land / next to footpaths; no sheep around an d hence no farmers busy with lambing time; lots of relatively safe single pitch routes, as long as you can place gear properly; access points well away from any villages/housing; not particularly visible to the general public (walkers will see you but if they have an issue with climbers being there, they probably shouldn't be there either). Of course not all crags tick these criteria but there are a few. Yet somehow it doesn't feel right to go there right now. No doubt some people are climbing in the Peak but I suspect they're mostly going to the more discreet, out of the way places.

I agree that climbing isn't so important for most people that they can't just stop 'for a while'. The question is how long that will be. This is shading into the other thread but the issue is that the timeline and criteria for a 'return to climbing' for most people will be a very grey area. Plenty more UKC debates to come!

I suspect we could find ourselves in an uncomfortable situation where a number of the current restrictions are removed but 'unnecessary travel' continues to be discouraged, some level of social distancing is still required / encouraged and some 'locals' will still have a siege mentality. Some people will start heading out, others (probably including the BMC) will continue to say that we should all hold off 'for a while'. Yet as time goes on, more and more people will start heading out, that's just human nature.

So I agree that at present climbing is not advisable for most people. However the reality is that any return to 'normal' probably won't be till autumn next year. I doubt many keen climbers will wait that long, though some probably will do. Most will resume climbing at some stage in the period in between.

What is the problem with lambing? I don't think I've ever come across a farm worker at lambing time when passing through fields with sheep and lambs, and, if I were to, it would be easy to keep my distance. 

Using gates seems to be the concern. Not sure how logical it is, particularly as gloves can be used, but there you go.

This from the BBC coverage of the US press conference today: 

<<William Bryan, the under secretary for science and technology at the US Department of Homeland Security, says the coronavirus may be killed faster under increased temperature, humidity and sunlight.

"We identified that heat and humidity is a weakness" of the virus' ability to spread, Bryan says, showing data suggesting that the virus could survive for 90 seconds under direct sunlight, and for 90 minutes without any solar contact.>>

No doubt more research is needed. Early research saying the virus could survive on some surfaces for days got a lot of attention but that was under lab conditions which are going to be very different to the outdoors.

It has spread and forced lockdowns in equatorial heat and humidity so any difference is almost certainly marginal.

On a normal weekend in the Peak at this time of year all the access land parking would be rammed by climbers and walkers, from locals to weekend trippers with people parked on verges for a long distance up narrow roads. Given all the people not at work right now and all those going stir crazy it would be chaos on any sunny day if it opened suddenly. Hence any organisations like the BMC I think are going to be stuck with the message to stay away until the government think deaths and infections are so low that the transmission risk on that first Sunday of lockdown is no longer high (and any change to reach that point will need to be gradual).  Dave made it clear on the Q&A that the Welsh government almost decided to close all footpaths after that first Sunday.

In contrast, the likelihood of a discrete local walking to a hidden crag (with just climbing shoes) getting caught (and the risk when climbing carefully and well within their limits) is minimal. However accidents can happen and the UK has plenty who would delight in photographing and sharing online what they see as an 'offender'. Optics.

Gribble is not unreasonably getting a bit lost in whataboutary assuming anything in the government advice is logical. Kids were bouldering and climbing trees in my local park today as they are kids; people tutted and parents looked suitably embarrassed. I can highly recommend reading tc's post at April 18th 6.16pm on the link below, to remove any thoughts of any logic in it. However, the optics are important and  if a lot more than a few people blatantly ignore advice there will be pressure for the lockdown and the policing of it to become harder:

https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,30554.225.html

I can’t believe this thread is so long. There’s nothing to discuss. Everyone needs to stay at home and only go out for essential reasons. Did you not get the memo?

According to an article in the Daily Telegraph(yes I know...let's not get off topic), the Government are actively discussing which sports and activities will be the first ones allowed as we gradually exit the lockdown, and they mention Golf and fishing!

Well if they allow golf and fishing I’m going climbing.

Snap! Was sure I saw climbers the other day on my run out past 3 MLs pub. I live 400 meters from Bell Hagg and can almost see Rivelin from my bedroom window. Isolation is killing me!!!

Or spread through contaminated surfaces is very unlikely anyway.

Did you not read the guidelines on exercise?

It's on a climbing forum - but you're forgiven

Would the average person consider climbing to be exercise or recreation? This is a key point (IMHO) that seems to be conveniently overlooked here.

Climbing is exercise its going to be in the next Olympic games?

Everyone saying climbing is ok if you're being careful and placing good gear is missing the point that this requires a belayer, belaying is clearly not a form of exercise or a reasonable reason to be outside of your home, therefore soloing is the only legal way to go climbing.

Ahh so I should be focusing on speed climbing in lockdown?

Both? Likewise walking, running or cycling?

Tory government, wouldn't surprise me if the lockdown was lifted for the glorious 12th

It might be too subjective to be useful, though. Who's the average person? I wouldn't like to say which category climbing is in for me, and under normal circumstances I probably wouldn't even find the question of interest.

... except if someone starts using that categorisation as a rationale for banning climbing while allowing other activities, ones which I would personally see as broadly comparable; in which case I'd be very likely to argue the opposite - or just ignore them and go climbing

You could do squat thrusts and star jumps while belaying.

Probably best to use a Grigri ....

Indeed and that's why some people are saying that environmental factors aren't particularly important. However there are a number of different way of transmission, with coughing / sneezing probably being the most 'sure fire' way, so it would spread everywhere anyway. In other words, it could be the case that the virus gets destroyed rapidly in strong direct sunshine but you'd still transmission by other means in hot climes. We just don't know and clearly more research is needed.

Agree with your second post.

Have seen that list of 'advice' before, it's an amusing but serious reflection of the current situation.

Well that's not unreasonable, fishing is generally done along, golf can be done alone, both can be done with significant distancing. Golf clubhouses could be an issue - I imagine the bars will be closed but people would still use the toilets etc. Both are low risk.

Climbing only needs one other person but is (seen as) risky and leads to a relatively small number of average to serious accidents, which typically also require a large number of MRT members to assist. Team sports such as football involve a lot of high energy mingling (lots of opportunities for transmission), are not (seen as) particularly risky yet lead to a fair few minor and average accidents. Would be interesting to know which sports place the highest overall strain on the NHS and emergency services. However from a transmission point of view I'd see climbing as much lower risk than team sports.

And people don't have much to do. This is my only entertainment!

On thursday i took a local walk over hen cloud and around the back of the roaches. All within the current law, i was at times 500 meters from anyone. I saw maybe 3 or 4 people.

The day before i took my daughter out in her pram into town via the park. I was swerving in and out all over the place avoiding people. To me the hen cloud walk is far better. 

What really irks me is daily the rural police team are posting about walks etc. It seems they are using opinion rather than the law. If more from leek headed out of town for walks then we would all be safer.

While the police are posting these videos about walkers who are abiding by the law, there are people using the roads as race tracks. Daily people come past the house x2 the speed limit. You can hear motorbikes thrashing away. Ive not seen the police post videos about that. 

All its doing is encouraging the public turn against each other.the posts you see on social media are eye opening. Such and such took 2 walks today, so and so bought some paint and those 2 are walking dogs but dont live together. People need to chill out and just be sensible.

The problem is, given the choice to drive to walk, way too many end up in the same beauty spots. Long before covid I've watched ambulances struggle to reach accidents at the Roaches (and in other places in the UK) as bad parking had reduced the road to single track with tricky passing places. The demand for such places will be at its highest ever in this good weather if the lockdown ends whilst many are 'working at home' with kids going stir crazy.

It's good for you living where you do at the moment so good luck with your walks. I live in inner city Nottingham and there are no issues avoiding anyone and the parks we walk through are the nearest green spaces for thousands with no garden but are not overcrowded and sometimes empty. A bigger park slightly further away with parking is much busier and the worst social distancing is in the carpark.

The regulations are aimed to be simple to be understandable and get good compliance in social distancing  and any look at relative risk in such a context is daft ... just apply common sense and stay away from busy areas and idiots. Climbing on average is safer than cycling in my view and unlike MTBs illegally riding tracks on the moors most climbers are being incredibly well behaved. Away from the odd Mr Angry  on the internet it seems to me most climbers are chilled and sensible.

Round here, Surrey, there have been quite a few police speed checks over the last few days.