UKH

Hey there, 

like many climbers these days I've turned to running as a form of exercise. The plan is to gain some extra fitness that could be beneficial for climbing, once the season kicks off.

I'm going out for a run roughly 3 times per week, usually 45 minutes, in addition to some core exercises on alternate days.

As a relative ignorant I'm wondering what great rate zone would make most sense for training, if an improvement in climbing fitness and endurance is my objective. Is there a point in doing interval training in order to push the heart rate up into zones 4 and 5?

Any suggestions appreciated. 

In reply to Mattia:

Try the UphillAthlete website for training related to rock-climbing and mountaineering. There is a book as well but most of the info is online.

In reply to Mattia:

I cannot remember what it says in the "Training for the new Alpinism" book. Highly recommend, if you can digest the information as it's fairly dry and fatiguing book (IMHO). 

Saying that, I am going to say there's a point in going to higher zones. Tempo/lactate threshold runs should help with tolerating and clearing lactate from the muscles, whereas shorter intervals will stress VO2Max (maximum oxygen consumption) which should help with the more sustained/explosive movements.

What I am not sure about is how the running training that stresses lower body translates to the upper body adaptations. 

In reply to Mattia:

I know nothing about heart rate zones, I don't pay attention to them. However, when I started running a lot I noticed my flexibility reduced a lot. So I would say to make sure you always stretch thoroughly after running. Factor it in to your running time so you don't skip it. Probably helps to ward off running injuries too.

In reply to Mattia:

Thanks for these suggestions. Will take a look at the website suggested. I don't think I can stomach any dry and dense literature though.

Regarding the upper body vs. lower body improvement I see your point. I guess aerobic training improves heart and lung function, however what will be the benefit of anaerobic running training for the upper body? Someone clever on here might have and answer at the ready.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Thanks, that's actually a really good suggestion and something that didn't occur to me. Now to self: don't skip the post-run stretch

In reply to Mattia:

I suspect that running training will do absolutely nothing for your climbing, unless you are very overweight. But it's good fun. 

In reply to GDes:

Running helps by maintaining base fitness, it also helps with core strength. To the op it’s good to do 80% at 70% of max hr and 20% at 85%+ of max hr. get your max hr by running 5k flat out with a balls out sprint at end then add 5 to the max hr achieved ( after you’ve stopped throwing up 🤮)

In reply to Mattia:

Regardless of heart rate zone, hard efforts all the time will get you injured, particularly if you have not been running frequently before. I would suggest 20% hard (zone 4/5) and 80% slow (zone 2) for that reason and something less impactful, but higher intensity for any further high heart rate work. It is easy to find yourself always doing tempo-ish runs and not really hard workouts with slower easier paced runs. Perhaps download a 5 k or 10 K plan as a guide.

P.S. Running can make you quite stiff which might be disadvantageous for climbing so combine some stretching/yoga or similar with this.

In reply to JimR:

Really? So if you took 2 people of a similar standard and body comp, everything else being equal one runs and one doesn't, you think the runner would be better at climbing? I don't believe it. It's just nowhere near specific enough. (again, assumi g you're not overweight).

Byvthe way I'm a keen runner,so I haven't just got it in for running or anything. 

In reply to GDes:

I’m not sure what you’re saying there. It’s a bit confusing. 
 

Many runners neglect strength training. But there’s no one size fits all. Those that know, will have very good core strength but not from running. Running only builds legs. Other muscles will not be naturally strong. 
 

So there isn’t a ‘standard runner’. Runners who only run and do no strength training won’t be good climbers. But anyone who climbs seriously should be doing additional strength training to complement their climbing so running won’t stop them doing that. 

In reply to Mattia:

Don’t worry about zones unless you’ve done a proper HR max lab or field test. Age guess is useless. 
 

If you’re looking at maintaining a good cardio fitness and weight just run easy at conversational pace for 30-60mins every other day. Work up to it though if you don’t run already. Don’t just go off and run 6miles even if you can, your fitness will allow it but your musculoskeletal system won’t be adapted and you’ll injure yourself.

In reply to GDes:

All I can say is that in the days before climbing walls I kept fit during the week by running and doing pull ups. I climbed one hell of a lot better at the weekends when I was doing that than when I didn’t!

In reply to Mattia:

The age guesses are so random it’s useless. X will come on now and say they work for them. It’ll work for some but many it’s just too random. You really need to take a while to either get tested or workout your own zones. 
 

I mainly use HR to check my low efforts are low and my hard are hard. Often when my reps are slow my HR is also just too low, other times my reps are slow but my HR is good I’m just ran down, stressed, tired etc.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

Agree the age thing give me a max hr of 157,  my real max is 189. Big difference on zones!

In reply to DancingOnRock:

Agree. Trying to jump into 20% of your volume being high intensity is a recipe for injury too. 

In reply to GDes:

I am a keen fell runner..

I debate it makes that much difference to my climbing either way.

It definitely keeps you agile,  is good for coordination, and helps your all-round energy levels. However it also burns a lot of energy so can mess with you power levels for intense climbing.

In reply to Mattia:

Personally I wouldn't worry to much about it.

Keep an eye on you breathing to understand where you bodies at...

In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Yes you are right, I was trying to stop the OP running hard all the time, but even 20% should be approached with caution if not practiced. Steve

In reply to JimR:

I definitely get worse at climbing when I run more, and worse at running when I climb more, and worse at both when I cycle more.

Probably only a bit, but it’s noticeable.  If I was the OP I would do interval training as there may be some benefit to running, and enjoy that for its own sake, but I wouldn’t hold out any hope of it making him a better climber.

In reply to gazhbo:

I think it's really is horses for courses this subject, I probably find I have to lower the running quantity to get the strength gains to operate 7b up.

Although a chap I know who was knocking on the door of 9a a few years back was also ran a fair bit.. although his recovery times were spectacular. So could handle really high intensity training routine's..

Best things to just find your own recipe I suppose..?

In reply to Mattia:

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I seem to gather that:

-running isn't going to make much difference in terms of climbing level

-too much running can be detrimental for climbing

-running improves base fitness, makes you lose some weight if needed, can help with core strenght, geberal energy levels

-too much too soon is a recipe for injury

-most people seem to suggest easy running, some would throw some higher intensity intervals in

-some people have experienced improvements in their climbing strenght

For some reason I'm trying to convince myself that running helps the heart &more lungs be more efficient at supplying your muscles with the good stuff. So in theory a good oxygen supply should benefit the climber...maybe.

Then there is the question whether climbing is mainly an anaerobic activity, in which case the whole oxygen issue seems to be redundant. 

In 'normal times', would running be on a climber's weekly training plan if a majority seem to feel that it doesn't do much for climbing stamina?

In relation to the above, climbing wouldn't normally fire enough muscles fibres through the bigger muscle groups for VO2 max to become a limiting factor. The ability to shift lactic acid from local muscle groups is more important. However like you say running is really good for you so doing a bit defo a good move in general.

In reply to Mattia:I do it because I like it, good for health and weight control and more directly I dabble in mountaineering.   But I dont think it helps my upper body strengh at all. 

I'd just go run easy, steady for 35, 40 minutes a week.  I didn't use an HRM when I was good at running and nor did most of the elite level people I knew.. too confusing and a lot of hard to handle variables

In reply to Mattia:

I personally think that flexibility has had a bigger impact impact on my climbing....and any running I do has a direct negative impact on that flexibility...but I am am getting on a bit.

In reply to Wimlands:

This shouldn't be the case really, maybe just lack of stretching...

Loads of sports from martial arts, boxing, certain gymnastics, free running, obstacles... Etc. Where more VO2 max is important and running works well alongside other forms of training to produce very supple and fit athletes. It's actually weight training which is known to counteract flexibility because it make the tendons much more dense.

Possibly less road running and more technical off-road/fell may help with this, as you tend to slow down and also use more supportive muscle groups...

In reply to LJH:

You’re right of course...

it’s just that a day after I’ve run I am usually stiff and consequently climb like a sack of potatoes...

In reply to Wimlands:

I know what you are saying and I am only 35.

I think your inadvertently making a good point. That that if your recovering from something then maybe you should be recovering from climbing ready for the next climbing session.. if purely just thinking climbing.

In reply to JimR:

That'll get you six months and your name on the register if nothing else.

In reply to Wimlands:

I've heard from a number of climbers, who used to climb for the UK team, yoga is probably the best complimentary activity, to improve your climbing.

If only I could be arsed to do some

In reply to krikoman:  YouTube yoga has helped me...

Point of pedantic... running 5k then a sprint isnt going to get you your max heart rate, just something above your anaerobic threshold.  The 5k is the problem.. do that, 5 minutes then do 400m hills flat out.  The third one will be at max..

In reply to krikoman:

Lol, I agree in a perfect world we all eat perfect and do yoga. Sure if all I did was climb I would do loads..

I find unfortunately after a stressful day at wk a run helps and fits into the time gaps ok. Then just crank like hell the rest of the time 😂 and hope for the best.

In reply to JimR:

All I can say is that the more I run, the worse I am at climbing. So our 2 anecdotes cancel each other out. 

As a thought experiment, estimate what percentage of ondras training involves running. 

In reply to LJH:

Me too. 

It makes me stiff as a board and really inflexible. 

...is good for coordination,

Really? I definitely have not noticed that. Surely something like tennis would be much better if that's the aim

... and helps your all-round energy levels. However it also burns a lot of energy so can mess with you power levels for intense climbing.

The latter for me. I simply have less energy to do all of the things that would benefit my climbing when I run. Fingerboarding, flexibility, core, endurance training. And actually going climbing. 

​​​​​​If the OP wants to avoid going nuts during lockdown, then running is a superb solution. If you want to come out of it as a better climber, get a fingerboard 

In reply to GDes:

Wow, your a friendly chap.. I think if read my posts fully, we agreed on most aspects there.

Anyway enjoy the boardtime... When you calm down.

In reply to GDes:

Ondras thoughts... Probably indicating periodization training.

Do you run regularly?
When I train hard, I go running like once a month, there’s simply no chance to do it more often. When I train less, running is an excellent method of active regeneration.

In reply to LJH:

Apologies, I genuinely didn't mean to come across as rude. Just answering your points.

I wonder what ondra means by regeneration

In reply to GDes:

Arrr no worries.. your direct.. which is good.

I agree with you on it all tbh. I think I just struggle to put running down as been at it so long. It's actually resting on rest days which is my downfall I reckon.

The performance rock climbing book (dale Goddard) places emphasis on periodization, 5 week intense,2 week recovery etc. So I would assume he is talking muscle regeneration during the recovery phase. Although he could be talking post comp mentally too?

However as you know fell running probably wouldn't class as a steady regeneration exercise... a steady 4miles around a country park would be better.

In reply to Mattia:

Like any sport, mixing it up is going to give you more benefit that training in the same zone every time.  Having said that, the bulk of your running should be in your aerobic zone, where you could comfortably have a chat with someone. Speed training is valuable but keep it a low proportion of your training to avoid injury and burning out. Increase your total mileage by around 10% per week if you want to increase distance. Look at training plans for ideas as to how this usually works - there are plenty of free ones online. I find using my heart rate as a rough guide is more useful than training by zones, and listening to my body is more important.

I echo the points other have made about stretching.

I think that individual experiences with running and climbing vary. My personal observations are that when I am running a lot, my ability to clear lactate seems to be better, and my climbing endurance increases - although it is only fair to note that the gains are low compared to climbing-specific endurance training. This also assumes that I am not dropping my climbing volume to accommodate running. Also, I don't tend to do much roadside climbing, so for me personally there is a definitely benefit in being able to hike into a climb with a heavy sack and still feel fresh when I get there.

In reply to LJH:

Absolutely.  When I was quite focussed on training for climbing, I'd probably go for a weekly plod around the lanes for a few miles.  Now I'm running a lot more, and trying to train for some races that may or may not happen.  I'm generally absolutely battered after that, and any climbing activity is pretty half hearted!

In reply to Mattia:

Are you, er, carrying any weight?

If so, I suspect losing that by the relatively high calorie burn efficiency of running is going to give you the best improvement for climbing.  (This for me, being a heavyweight, is the best thing about running - the calorie burns compared with time spent are immense).

If not, it'll just contribute to your general fitness.  Which is a good thing; I wouldn't get hung up on climbing, or if you are things like fingerboards and pull-up bars will likely be of more direct benefit, I'd have thought.

In reply to GDes:

Suspect you are probably overdoing it then. My mate, who was a GB top 3 triathlete and coached me, emphasised the need to run easy most of the time, have rest days and really hammer it when hammering it. Called the region between 70% and 85% of max HR the "dirty zone" where you only got the same  benefit of 70% or less but tired yourself much more. Ultimately it all comes down to whether you are exercising or training.   Re the benefits of running when I was younger, I had the advantage of being naturally flexible ( could easily put my leg behind my head) , when out running (standard route was 10 miles 3 times a week (Tue, wed, thu cos mon I was recovering from weekend  fri I was going away) at 6min/mile pace .. aimed for an hour for the 10 miles including 3 stops at underpasses to do a set of 10 finger tip pull ups .. and occasionally run with a brick in each hand to improve grip strength and lactic tolerance in forearms ... weekend was usually pretty full on from dawn to dusk ..and sometimes later on trad (before sport climbing was invented). As I say this worked for me.   

In reply to JimR:

Jeez, that's some fast miles.  

In reply to Mattia:

Such a nice thread was looking for the same guide such as this.

In reply to JimR:

I know a lot of good runners who would struggle with 3 consecutive days of 10 miles in an hour (sub 80 HM pace) a week.  I’m pretty sure none could do it staying under 70% of max HR.  I don’t think any would bother carrying bricks.

Are you sure you wouldn’t have been better focusing more heavily on running given that level of talent?

In reply to GDes:

That's interesting, would be good to see where you times and grades cross. I am probably going more towards climbing from a running background (~20yrs competitive scary!). To put some substance behind it, I find the below is about the best balance I can achieve whilst being a jack of all trades.

Monday: Rest

Tuesday: Climbing Power Day - Fingerboard + hard bouldering (~2hr)

Wednesday: Climbing Power Endurance Day - Either indoor circuits (~2hrs) or bolts clipping evening.

Thursday: Run - ~13miles/500m total accent.

Friday: Rest

Saturday: Climb Power Endurance Day - Either bolt clipping or big wall.

Sunday: Run - ~13miles/500m total accent.

That keeps me pretty solid at Sport 7a/7b (need to pick my battles to operate any higher). I mix some trad in, but if I do too much me grades drop cos I am to scared to push as hard.

Running: Around a 35min/10K region, probably good for around 10th place on a standard peak district mid-distance fell run. I have been slightly better at running in the past but the mileage as to go up to 40+ a week really, which does start to bring the injuries on, and climbing goes out the window.

In reply to Mattia:

Would agree that if you're new to running then keep it easy (conversational pace/ nose breathing) the vast majority of the time until your body adapts. And resist the temptation to go too far. I find 2 days of rest works well for me when getting back into running.

In terms of cross over with climbing, the direct cross over will be minimal but the type/intensity of running you do will optimise your body towards using a particular energy system. To use the extremes as an example, doing very long distance at a steady pace (2hrs+) will make it much easier to return to climbing all day, whether that be a multipitch or just a full day of moderate cragging. That same running will also make it much harder to train pure strength and power, not only because you won't be fresh and snappy when you need to be powerful, so if you boulder more than trad climb, long distance running may have a negative effect on your climbing. Inversely, doing short duration uphill sprints (30 seconds max effort) will mean that when you return to climbing you are optimised towards powerful, strength based climbing such as bouldering. I've found in the past that doing medium intensity runs (nose breathing but on the border of mouth breathing) for 45min-1hr a couple of times a week has kept me in good shape for doing fairly hard (for me) trad onsights, where I'm not anywhere near my physical limit but trying very hard for around an hour at a time.

This is massively oversimplified and in no way the whole picture, but if you are interested in using running as cross training for climbing or just using it to make an easier return to climbing then consider which energy system you likely use most in the type of climbing you do, and tailor your running such that it uses the same energy system.

In reply to Mattia:

Hi

To improve endurance you must do long runs and interval training. All the longer runs are at varying distances and paces,  as are all intervals sessions, mile pace, 3km pace, 5km pace. Varying what you do improves your fitness faster.

To complicated to go into details here. Send me your running details, ie how fast you are now over say 5km and how  many times you can run per and I will put something together for you. Any training plan needs to be progressive, otherwise you plateau.  http://runningcoachonline.co.uk 

In reply to Mattia:

Anaerobic running tens to be muscle building

http://runningcoachonline.co.uk

In reply to spiritfit:

Thanks for that. Training plan sounds interesting. I haven't got as far as establishing a proper 5k time though. Trying to stay away from going too fast too soon.

In reply to kathrync:

Some interesting points there. Clearing lactate at a faster rate seems reasonable, however climbing specific endurance training might do the same.

I do see the point in running fitness having positive effects on 'mountain day' endurance, be that long easy climbing routes, walk ins and walk outs with a backpack etc.etc. 

As part of an all-round lockdown fitness regime I do enjoy some regular runs, complemented by more climbing specific activities. 

In reply to Mattia:

Running has virtually zero crossover with climbing fitness. The limit is never your "central" cardio fitness, its far more localised when it comes to climbing. My route endurance was probably at its lowest whilst simultaneously running sky races to a decent standard. 

In reply to Mattia:

Interesting points about "does running make you a better climber." Basically it'll definitely vary from person to person but for me a big part of running, and any exercise outside of climbing, is the mental side - I simply feel better, and fitter overall,  so I think I do climb better. I don't think running helps with climbing endurance per se, but there's a lot to be said for the mental benefits of feeling on top of your game because you feel fit and strong overall, so in that way running fitness can be beneficial for climbing. And it all depends on how hard you climb! Building "unecessary climbing" muscle through other activities might have a real impact in the higher grades, I wouldn't know though because I'm not there!!