UKH

Just an idea but the sleeves would have to be "glued on". Is it a really stupid idea? Requisition a bin liner factory?

That's a good idea they could at least be made into aprons if not gowns. 

Steve Bell has a bleaker proposal

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2020/apr/15/steve-bell-on...

Sterilisation would have to be considered.

With a concurrent message "recycle recycle recycle" because plastic tray usage has gone up food e.g on fish etc and we don't want a rubbish crisis.

It's an idea which works on the following principal needed for success in all unprecedented situations. 

Improvise, adapt, overcome. 

The problem is that improvisation is not the strength of any large, centralised organisation. The larger the organisation the greater resistance to change the slower the adaption. 

A good example of this is that early on it should have been noted that PPE could be reused rather than following the standard (wasteful) single use protocol. Logically this is possible because Covid 19 can be washed off items, therefore a high temperature wash should do the trick. And unlike standard patients, covid patients are confined to covid wards, meaning they are not at as great a risk of catching other diseases as a mixed ward. The facilities are there to do it as every hotel laundry is receiving reduced work.

Whatis lacking is the agile mentality. This is obvious when we blame only one person for failure in the NHS, the health secretary. That top down abdication of responsibility is symptomatic of almost all large organisations which is why small, disruptive companies manage to innovate faster than those which are better funded. 

Please don't think at all that I'm not on the side of from line workers, my mother is in the NHS and is dealing with it day to day. It's a problem which she struggles with too, good ideas are lost in the size and culture of the organisation. 

It is an idea, but the kind of things gowns are used for are close close patient care, inserting breathing tube etc and bin liners would tear/catch and be far too sweaty to wear for more than a few minutes.

We've got plenty of aprons made of a similar material to bin liners, no shortage of these.

I suspect you might be oversimplifying this. Lots of the PPE doesn't look like the kind of stuff that you can just chuck in a high-temperature wash and expect it to come out in a usable condition. Especially over and over again.

Plus, the health secretary and the rest of government were loudly declaring for weeks that there was absolutely no shortage of PPE, they had vast stockpiles and the only problems were some very temporary and local issues with the logistics of getting it to the right places. Maybe if they'd been more honest, more planning would have been done to work around it.

OK, not breathable.

Roofing lining is waterproof but breathable. I put Tyvek breathable liner on my roof. Is it flexible enough to make into clothing?? I think so. Is it toxic? Don't think so. You get rolls of it at building stores. Make gown and then  wash at 40 degree temperature to give flexibility to material and also sterilise.???

Yes, Tyvek is actually used to make gowns. I'd assume the roofing stuff is thicker.

I can attest that tyvek suits get very hot!

I didn't honestly know that! Cooling- can only think of  a silver stuff like camping material on inside  but not breathable...... but maybe in strips so the body is cooled as well as breathes in areas of tyvek.

Sounds like the sort of project Blue Peter could front. With all these kids off school, i’m sure with a roll of bin liners and some cello tape, the nations children could be knocking out 3 million items of PPE per day. All kids that produce over 1000 items gets a Blue Peter badge.

Right, now that’s sorted, onto the testing problem.

Yes. And make bin liner gowns mandatory uniforms for ministers as long as there is a shortage of the real thing. That might encourage them to deliver on their promises.

A good idea. Even making arms and a head hole would give us more cover than a front and sides white pinny.

I thought some were having to resort to bin liners in desperation already. 

Dedicated NHS treated as Cannon fodder.

More agile than you think:

https://nhsproviders.org/confronting-coronavirus-in-the-nhs

Yes, your arm's  absorbant s skin is exposed and any cloth covering will just absorb fluid and reach your skin. .That or leave your arm uncovered and have to scrub it. It's dreadful. And despite the blue peter element, there are still builders merchants full of this tyvek which I do remember was quite thin when it was rolled out on the roof. gluing and then sewing together perhaps. Glue was used to seal edges I recall.

I agree they have moved mountains in the crisis, however there is an obvious inflexibility. They are inundated with requests to help with testing, for example, but reports say they will  not send virus samples to the labs to allow for labs to validate their tests. This is really where an agile structure and small team dynamics would be helpful, and it doesn't necessarily lead to poor quality products. I don't doubt that the NHS will turn it around eventually, however they have been less agile than the German, decentralised, private/public sector mix which operates in a less top down fashion.

So you are saying Germany is applying small,  more local factory production lines of PPE? I was wondering why we can't and my only thought was we didn't have the raw material and I was trying to identify that type of material. And I thought there might be appropriately adaptable businesses with sewing/ assembling facilities.

I suppose I'd attempt to make my own - which people have had to resort to.

In terms of plastics we would certainly have the raw material, Ineos create plenty of it, woven fabrics have more stretched supply chains.

My point on Germany was more to do with testing. However they did act promptly in their own national interest banning export of PPE much to the dissatisfaction of Italy and among others. In the UK we have not taken this action, ventilators from the UK are still being exported, for example. Personally I agree with continuing to export, as we are all in this and other countries will be hit far harder than us and they have no manufacturing capability for producing reliable PPE or ventilators and far less initial stock, we should not pull out their lifelines.

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-germany-exports/germany-...

One thing Germany does have, that we don't, is a nationally respected system of quality control in all industries. As was stated on Any Questions last night by a private company representative, they attempted to manufacture gowns and these were rejected as substandard. This is a QC issue, which if we were used to employing German levels of QC to all industries we might have been able to mitigate and potentially today the NHS would have more gowns.

It's not a bad summing up of current times.

We could be in this position again if there was to be a second round of re-infection peaks in all countries in the winter months. Same again, basically. Worth sorting now.

Definitely which is why I'm putting my free time, currently I'm working from home 9-5, into developing PPE solutions pro-bono as part of a wider design engineering project.

From what I have been briefed the key areas are full hazardous material suits, face masks (ones which fit better than the current Shields) and black sky scenario (like blue sky thinking but when it's all gone tits up big time). 

To that end if anyone has solutions or gripes about PPE if like to hear them. 

Quality control in building involves reading the Scottish building regulations explained and illustrated as the builder and a building inspector making sure you comply. These regulations give criteria- how you reach them if you self- build are your own design solutions eg chimney sections for wood stoves must have an overlap in a certain direction to prevent leakage of smoke.

Medical clothing regulations presumably would say, seams must overlap and be sealed to prevent liquid seepage.

The sewing solution is probably in the folding of the seam, with an overlap { try with two pieces of paper. ON one piece, fold edge down, insert edge of second piece of paper in the triangular part of the first piece of paper. Glue and sew all edges together,  Tape seam afterward.This provides an overlap seam to prevent a parted  seam having gaps.}

Have a clothing inspector like a building inspector!

I have a friend who works in community care { local Highland Council employee rather than private company} . Her and her fellow community carers had 4 face masks between them and only very recently got more. It is a terrible weak point in protecting the vulnerable at home who can't  wash themselves.

And a problem with a mask when I was caring  years ago was a mask made my glasses steam up!I needed a sort of side vent to keep glasses from steaming up- Id sort of leave a side string loose on one side.but that defeats the purpose of a mask and many with glasses are conflicted!Maybe it should accommodate the glasses  somehow . 

Face masks- are they made of waterproof polyester microfibre like some waterproof climbing neck "Buffs"- would that work as a face mask in a supermarket? Pulling the "Buff" over your mouth and nose? easier than strings round ears!

Just  been shopping and I had to remind someone to stay back- getting slack again and there were a few slacknesses creeping in through tedium. 

This is symptomatic of humans generally to lose discipline.

When lockdown stops I think the general public should find a mask of some sort to work with this social distancing. Today, I wore my buff over mouth and nose and others were doing the same but I have no idea if the waterproof material it is made of has some effect to keep out virus?

Mid Yorkshire NHS Trust has up with a version of the bin liner theme.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-52353539

Bin bags probably superior. In fact I think bin bags are not a bad solution, couple with some rectal gloves and you are most of the way there.

of course what you really need are calving gowns:

https://www.kiwikit.co.uk/product/long-sleeve-kiwikit-gown-neoprene-cuffs/

usually survive a good soak in FAM.

Given temperature of the rooms on NNU it's a boil in the bag experience!

You should try wearing one in 30 degree heat whilst wrestling a prolapsed uterus back into a cow!

Okay you win. Only 28 degrees on NNU plus humidity.

From gowns to face shields.

Recycle recyle recycle our plastic because I am reading this is the material being used for face shields. { though I note above that design of faceshield needs improving}

We could improve our recycling in UK if we can increase this industry in Uk using UK "rubbish" and also link it in people's minds with the NHS and our own health.? Our habits of recycling need improving anyway! 2 birds with one stone?

As a carer of an elderly parent dealing with all sorts of fluids, I feel for the carers in the home, either professional carers like my friend or a single home carer like I was for 3 years with an elderly parent. Face shields would help with the steaming up of glasses whilst leaning over  bath water or sink water whilst washing someone.

A more complex face shield is made for  building with full head coverage with a battery driving air in  and most importantly with A Filter. Stopped my glasses steaming up. BUT My concern with adapting this idea is that air will actually be pushed into the lung. The filter would have to filter out the virus completely.

In Australia filters made of clay were used for water filtration because they filtered out the smallest Giardiasis microbes which carbon filters did not. Does Clay filtration filter out virus too???? We've plenty of clay in UK!! 

Battery driven air  full head shields only need to be used for close work like washing and loo stuff. A battery need only last 3/4 hour { unlike builders' full headmasks that are heavy and need to last for hours}} . As community carers go from patient to patient in a car usually, the battery could be recharged using the car Lighter function. The full head shield could be much lighter than a builder's full head shield. Clay bloc filters could be changed between patients and so need not be very big and heavy and also adds to their efficiency. Just a  mad attempt????!!!!!

This whole supply panic is about not understanding the basics of how the modern world comes into being. If you have a political population and a senior civil service population that are there because they have degrees in law, PPE (politics, philosophy and economics), history or fine art, then if you need them to understand manufacturing and logistics then the whole thing is a waste of time. And that's where we are. 

I expect quite a few people have recently had to have it explained to them what a nanometre is and why it's relevant. 

Once upon a time, everybody in Britain knew people who made stuff for a living. Then some f3cking idiot came along and told us that the cradle of the industrial revolution was actually a nation of shop keepers. 

Well believe it or not folks, these things have consequences. Maybe not tomorrow or the next day. This spring we are pay with lives for believing that nation of shop keepers sh1t big style.

The next general election is some way off but the signs are ready. They read as follows.
==============
POLLING PLACE. 

This is not a joke.
If you get this wrong you could die.
==============

{Some scientists mentioned this }

Just read that masks for wearing in supermarket could be made from T shirt weight of material, doubled up with 2 sheets of Kitchen paper inserted in between the material layers. Always washing cloth mask after going to shops [ presumably in hot soapy water at 60 degree C} and changing the paper insertion.

My friend Jan had a good idea but didn't want to appear  frivolous. She thought Cloth, unpadded bras have adjustable straps and could be adapted to fit round the mouth and nose and adjust around head size. Padded ones could suffocate!! But it isn't so daft an idea???....The  light -weight adjustable straps are at least  useful  to sew onto   home made masks.

And we'll still vote ABC... then get Conservatives anyway as usual. Part of me fears we deserve it.

jk

Filtering is complex and involves multiple mecahnisms such as adhesion, size exclusion, sieving, solvent effects, etc., so anything that follows is just a rough guess.

Giardia cells are about 30 µm across, coronavirus particles about 120 nm, a factor of 250 in diameter.

Also, Giardia is filtered from water, whereas for CV you want to filter air.

Knowing that a given filter is able to block Giardia from passing therefore tells you nothing about its ability to block viruses.

Indeed the entire concept of "viruses" was initially developed when people discovered that some pathogens could (at the time) not be filtered out at all.

CB

Such masks/scarves/bandanas/bras are not for filtering virus, but work by catching the droplets of liquid these viruses need in order to survive for any appreciable time. Thus, a coughing, sick person does not infect too many others.

As I wrote in another thread, I was initially sceptical about the benefit this brings, but apparently the reduction in transmission is really appreciable for not much extra hassle. Possibly masks simply remind people that not everything is normal, and the other lockdown regulations should be followed.

CB

Point taken about moisture reduction rather than filtration, as the virus requires moisture.

I have a raw clay jug which I use to speed dry washed wet plastic bags. I place the open end of the bag over the aperture of the jug and the bags dries very fast as if the clay draws out the moisture.

Could this property of clay be the property useful in full head masks, drying air  as it comes in and out of a full head mask???It is cooler to work in full head masks with air being driven in by a battery than material over the face which makes you hot when working at pace.

Do filters actually need to stop viruses to be basically effective or just what they're carried in/on when it comes to aerosols?

Jk

I'm loving the idea of terracotta helmets fixing this but realistically if most of us stop spitting on each other when we speak and cough it sounds like that'll probably do

Jk

For the current crisis, stopping aerosols carrying viruses is probably enough to significantly lower the transmission risk. For filtering in general, you may also have to stop individual virus particles. My point was that even then pore size is not the only thing that needs to be considered.

CB

I've learnt quite a bit . I'm sure out of this sort of discussion we will improve the ways for us, the general public, to reduce transmission { combining distancing with effective none-medical masks}  and professionals.  I sincerely hope improvements with come for carers like my friend who are up close and personal , washing and emptying commodes, in elderly people's homes, going from house to house and meeting at least 5 different elderly people a day.....Transmission  ain't the word for it! dangerous to all......Testing will help for her, but of course we carry the virus before being symptomatic!!

Also, always shut the loo seat before flushing at home as well as in public loos- that stops transmission I learnt!!

Scotland recommends face coverings in enclosed spaces, but not for under 2s. Terracotta helmets not mentioned!

[I.ve experimented, -   a slightly warm terracotta pot dries water droplets in a bag placed over its aperture very quickly-  dry the virus to death--periodically dry hospital air  with clay filtration to reduce viral load in covid 19 wards to additionally protect NHS workers' health?????????]

obviously without patients/staff being in the ward but part as regular deep clean.