UKH

Hey guys.

Looking at getting some new quick draws. Currently carrying 4x 12cm 4x 18cm 4x alpine draws.

Looking at getting some new quick draws sometime soon, however I'm thinking about getting 12X 18cm draws ( 2 - 4 ) alpine draws as well.

Just wondering what everyone's opinion would be. Personally I find I always go for a 18cm and it's annoying to inspect my rack and find them. I suppose my theory is that if they're all the same length its something else not to think about; just grab and clip.

I understand the problem being of course rope drag which could be of course avoided with lets say a 25cm draw.

Another problem of course is fall distance, of course a 12cm draw will create less of a fall compared to a 18cm.

I suppose my real question is does having a 12cm and 25cm on your rack really make it useful? surely a few cms doesn't make a grand difference with regards to rope drag and fall distance. Surely if you use a 18cm, when you could have used a 12cm, the worse case situation is that you'll fall 6 cm further.. (i would love an answer to this, as i feel like I'm missing something out)

Personally If i'm in a situation with potential rope drag ill just use a alpine draw and i tend to use two ropes anyway.

I understand that everything is of course subjective and people have their own way of doing things, but what would be anyone's opinion? I think its fair to say its not mental to carry just 18cms quickdraws and 4x alpine draws.

Personally I don't think the fall distance is much of a problem, unless on grit e.t.c where ground falls are actually an issue. 18cm vs 25cm I don't think will make much of a difference. I do like having 12cm though as I prefer them for sport climbing and don't have two sets of draws. Find really long draws can sometimes twist or lay funny on the rock, which can be frustrating clipping sport climbing. Think you'd be grand with 18cm draws and alpine draws for the majority of all trad climbing.

Go with 18s. I've got mainly 18s, a few alpines when on multipitch. And I carry 2 short ones, generally to extend stuff like cams, or slings, which are already long, but need a bit more for whatever reason. Roof, corner etc. 

18s tend to work really well, and the really short ones often look like they're going to lift/ pull gear out while you're moving past them. 

I generally feel like longer draws are better for Trad, and it's definitely worth carrying some alpine draws on any substantial routes, they're just so flexible.

But I do always have one or two short draws in my bag. I agree that a few centimetres is very rarely going to make a real difference but sometimes it's nice to have them as an option for those moments when a few centimetres *feels* like it might make a difference!

All mine are made with a tripled shoulder-length slings (alpine draws?)  I usually carry 12 for multipitch climbs.  One for "mission critical" placements uses a pair of ultralight lockers.  Sewn draws are ok for sport but I find their extra stiffness a drawback with trad gear, in addition to their reduced versatility.

Trad climber here so the value of Alpine draws is unquestionable.

I usually carry three Alpine draws and the rest are shorter.

Alpine draws when used unfolded means that the slings are tripled and therefore strands can lie on top of one another.

I do use them this way but does anyone know of any studies showing the effect of slings on top of one another. (I note that DMM design of their cam nose avoids the sling lying on top of itself.)

12cm are close to useless for trad. I just carry 18s and a few 25s. Sure, use alpine draws if they're your thing, but I hate them.

4 dislikes for that eminently sensible post is embarrassing for UKC. Admittedly US trad tends to be a lot bigger than UK trad, with longer average pitch lengths, so needs more long and adjustable draws. However, I ditched all but one of my sewn draws from my UK trad rack long ago (that one being stiff enough for clipping pegs or jammed gear, just out of reach from a comfortable position)

Yeah, struggle to understand why anyone would think a rack of anything but trad-draws is the answer here!  The clue is in the name?  Anyway I don't climb so much anymore so what do I know.

The use of single ropes rather than the length of the pitches is probably why they use so many alpine draws over there.

Whatever length the draws are, they have to be better than just using 2 crabs on a wire (which was a step up from using 1 crab). A couple of short draws are useful for anywhere you are close to the ground or a ledge.

I carry only 18cm "floppy" QD's and supplement them with 2 to 4 alpine draws depending on the climb. I can see some logic in carrying all alpine draws but I find them a little more awkward to manage and they do not always hang neatly on the harness.

Al

I hate Alpine draws ! I find them really fiddly to use.  I prefer a mix of short draws, longish draws and loose slings .

I agree. Slingdraws are bulky on the harness when carrying a big rack, and even if the weight difference is small, they make me feel more encumbered. Also worth asking what the advantage is of additional slingdraws beyond the small number that ever seem to be used on any one pitch, when flexible QDs are smaller, lighter, easier to rack and less likely to get tangled.

I thought rgold said elsewhere that he used half ropes sometimes.  I certainly always do on big US trad. My trad shortdraws are mainly of the unsewn loop variety.

Cams seem to be especially prone to getting entangled in alpine draws I find.  I also carry one on sports routes as they come in handy for the odd bolt placed out of line or under a roof.

Al

I guess it depends on your definition of trad climbing really. If you like doing long, easy routes, when the chances of being in extremis are remote, then having all sling/alpine draws might be appropriate.

However if you like pushing yourself while climbing trad, and often find yourself in situations when you want to clip in fast, then having a load of stitched quickdraws is preferable.
 

To the OP: My quickdraws are currently all 20cm long, but in the past I’ve had a mix of 18cm and 25cm ones, and I think anything around that length is perfect for the vast majority of climbers. I don’t really rate short quickdraws for either trad or sport climbing. I find they are two stiff and cause wires to lift out, and cams to walk. If I was going to carry some it would be no more than two.

In my view alpine draws have their place on every trad rack, but I rarely bring more than three. I also really rate having a few 60cm slings racked over the shoulder, so I can quickly extend cams, thread threads and drop them over spikes.

HTH

Everyone's going to have their own personal preference.

I carry 6 x 30cm unsewn draws - they are my "go-to" draws. I also carry 2 x 18cm draws (these are sewn, but just because I couldn't find any unsewn ones last time they needed replacing). These I use for near ground placements, or, if I've not used them there, for extra extension for cams or hexes, or in rare positions where the extra centimetres might be the difference between hitting a ledge or not. Finally I carry 4 Alpine draws which I mostly use extended for those "out of line" placements. Occasionally I'll add a couple of 12cm draws if it's obvious they'll be useful near the ground, but otherwise 18cm is my shortest. And for long pitches I'll add a couple more Alpine draws - usually borrowed from my climbing partner.

The above is for Trad - obviously - mid-grade (HS - E1) and using double ropes. And I'm pretty much in the old-school "leader doesn't fall" brigade -  just ten significant leader falls so far in 50 years. (Hope that's not tempting fate - I'm overdue for number 11...….). So reducing rope drag and avoiding gear being lifted out is usually more important to me than reducing fall length.

Hope that helps but, again, everyone has their own preference.

Martin

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To all the people that carry 3 sling draws / alpine draws (who calls them trad draws?!)....

3?!?!?! What’s wrong with you? An uneven number on your harnes?!?!?! My world would implode.

Only really use the sling draws when doing the longer multipitch routes as often on crags you can see if you'll need an extended draw.

I use 2 slings on draws and one of them has a DMM roller on one side that helps reduce drag when turning direction, rarely needed but very useful. The rest are a mix of 18/25 cm sewn on quickdraws.

I don't sport climb.

Carry a few of everything, cover all options. 

Bear in mind a sling draw can also be used to put over a spike or use as a thread. QD's tend to be sewn and make this less convenient.

Al

Absolutely.  In fact I'm slightly OCD in this regard

Al

... yes, they might be less than ideal but having three or four 12cm 'draws' on your 'trad' rack can be useful for extending cams on long pitches...

Agreed Jez. Odd numbers of QDs make me feel funny inside. 

My standard set (for summer or winter): 2x12 4x14 6x18 2x alpine 60cm with an extra 2x alpine draws added if I want to take 14 e.g Gogarth. All sewn quickdraws with the exception of the 60s. I think the 12s are really useful for clipping the first piece off the belay or anywhere else where fall distance needs to be minimised for safety reasons.

Many of my long US or european trad routes were pushing my lead ability, sometimes in serious situations. You need to be calm when things are serious. In my view any normal trad benefit for clipping in fast from sewn extenders is really for safe stamina fests.... the trad equivalent of sport.... I prefer to tackle easier graded routes of this type and run things out a little bit to keep the rack size down.  

The risk of lifting gear can also be looked at in another way... it's just not extended enough for a long 3D meandering pitch. On a short crux, near a belay with something to hit (like a ledge) you can always clip short then reclip longer. However, much short extension I see outdoors seems to me to make things worse adding drag and or encouraging cams to walk or nuts to lift. Too many UK trad climbers seem to be placing nervously for bogus risk reduction, oblivious to the problems it might cause or how much ropes stretch in a lead fall on long pitches. It makes me want to cry with frustration when people place a first runner at head level before starting to climb a normal protectable non-cruxy grit route above a good flat landing. It makes me cringe when they forget to place that early first runner above a steep multipitch belay.

I take a few sling extenders (of different sizes) with just one crab, on routes with plenty of cam placements likely to need extension. The most exaggerated case I can think of was  onsight on the final piitch of Dream of White Horses where all my 'extenders' were long slings.

It's a matter of experiment combined with your personal tactics and the type of routes you're doing. It's good to have a variety of options, I think.

Personally, in the Lakes and on long wandering pitches (e.g. Trowbarrow or Costa Blanca trad), I've started to carry 14 draws with very light carabiners: 6 sling-draws, two 25cm, four 18cm and two 12cm. But, if I climb on short escarpments, I'll carry less alpine draws (maybe 1 or 2) - and less runners overall.

I really value sling-draws/alpine-draws on long pitches. If the climbing is easy, I might run 50m of rope out to make progress, and it's good to be able to use alpine draws to be sure rope drag is minimal. Or, lots of lines in the Lakes tend to follow one groove line, then get to, say, a roof, and traverse out into another groove line, so longer extenders are a must to reduce drag and ensure gear stays put. I have a 120cm sling with a "Revolver" on it for really sharp changes of direction.

I also like to have 12cm quick draws as an option, though, e.g. when you're worried about hitting the floor/a ledge or when you've extended the sling of a cam, but you want to extend it just a little further; or when you're worried about a sling coming off a spike and you want the bit of extra weight and play provided by short quickdraw.

Wow great responsive's, thank you all.  It's great to see how a lot of people see to share the same opinions with regards to myself.

I definitely noticed a few comments mentioning using the 12cm at the start of a climb to avoid potential ground fall which i do agree with or used as a confidence boost to do a sketchy move.

When i'm trying to push grades I'm trying to improve my mentality mostly, personally i think i could be climbing harder grades, but its mostly my mental ability i feel that's holding me back.

Of course safety first, but I'm trying to improve the thought process of my physical climbing is better if there is less of a fall factor

I think with myself personal as someone else mentioned I relay on my physical climbing ability first and I don't expect to fall, the gear i place is more of a back up or to assist my 2nd safely.
 

I use mostly 15cm, although I have 10s as well as longer ones around 30cm. 10s are often fine on the end of an extended dragon for example. Also a little easier to handle, which helps on pumpy stuff. On more wondering routes I'd want longer draws. It depends on the route. As long as the rope/ropes are running straight and avoiding edges/friction where possible.

On trad I generally do the opposite: put a long extender on the first piece on each rope. That's because my default priority is to protect the placement: I really don't want an angle in the rope there, revolver crab or no. Remember that an angle can be "in-out" as well as sideways. If it really is the case that a short draw will protect a ground fall but a longer one won't (how often is that?), I'll often reach back and extend it, if possible, after reaching higher jugs or after getting a second piece in.

Have a like to counter the dislike .

I , like you, try to use the best length on the first piece.

It all depends on the situation.

Usually only carry a couple of alpine drawers but probably more 120cm slings than most folk, for quick deployment clipped over my neck and armpit . Less cluster on the harness.

Absolutely!

I've never really seen the preoccupation with having multiple lengths of quickdraws. I rather blame DMM for their stupidly named 5-packs of quickdraws. Pick a length, pick a model of carabiner and just be done with it.

As quite often happens, I'm pretty much in agreement with Mr Ripley; lots of identical medium length quickdraws which rack really neatly, a few alpine/extendable draws plus a couple of 60cm slings (each with one wiregate) over my shoulder. 

Well, I use half ropes for virtually everything and still rack nothing but tripled sling draws.  I sometimes use up most of my 60m ropes on leads but certainly do plenty of 40m leads too.  But I don't do much climbing on very short crags, where you're only going to place three or four pieces anyway and you know what they are and where they'll go.  

Overhangs and wandering features still make it necessary for me to have full-length draws a lot of the time.   I frequently see people who carry only short sewn draws struggling with rope drag and having their gear lift when a longer sling would have alleviated the problem.  And I think having every draw adjustable is preferable to carrying different sizes, because inevitably you will use up the sizes you want (unless the route and its placements are are already known) and will have to make do with lengths that are less ideal.  Moreover, with tripled draws you have slings readily available for use on small trees, flakes, and threads.

I don't buy the argument that if you are pushing things you can clip in faster with a short sewn draw.  You take the draw off your harness and clip it to the gear.  How long that takes has nothing to do with whether the draw is a short sewn draw or a tripled sling---at least not for me.  Perhaps the issue is that the advantageous flexibility of the draw makes it marginally harder to clip in the rope? 

It is however true that lengthening a tripled draw is fussy and sometimes they can get tangled with extra turns around the carabiner.  A little OCD at home after a climbing day helps with this; I reset the draws neatly, removing webbing twists, at home in preparation for the next day of climbing. 

As for length, the tripled draw seems fine to me for almost all protection near the ground.  Occasionally I might use a cam and clip directly to its sling, and I've used wired nuts clipped with a single carabiner as well, with the belayer standing close by to eliminate any lifting potential for the hard move in question.  In none of these cases do I see a short sewn draw to be so advantageous as to have one on the rack for that purpose.

As for racking strategy, I carry my 12 draws in four groups of three, with two draws clipped to the top carabiner of the third draw and that top carabiner clipped to the harness gear loop on my right side. (I don't rack gear on my harness, I use a gear sling for that, this from habits dating back to the days when we carried a rack of pitons.)  This keeps things from getting too tight on the gear loop and doesn't impede retrieval for me.

At the end of the day, none of this matters a whole lot.  Whatever system makes you comfortable is the one you should use, and people who do a fair amount of sport climbing are going to have a lot of draws they'll probably want to keep using for trad.

I recall that when I visited Yosemite in the 90's every American we encountered used single ropes and racked their gear on shoulder slings.  They were quite intrigued/amused by our use of double ropes and gear racked mainly on the harness. We showed one or two of them how to use double ropes and they saw the logic and happily adopted it when appropriate.  Some routes, especially in Yosemite, are of course suited to single ropes and gear racked on a shoulder sling.

Al

Oddly enough, I think of the 90's as a the time when lots of folks here started using half ropes extensively.  But that was back East, not in Yosemite.  Half ropes are just an annoyance when climbing long single cracks, but even on granite there are plenty of situations in which half ropes are better.  Sandstone splitters are one situation where single ropes rule.  In any case, most people in the US seem to have gone back to single ropes for their lightness, simplicity, and ease of handling.  I'm still clinging to my halves though, as the advantages that made them preferable thirty years ago don't seem to have changed much...

Went with 8x 18cm, 4x sling draws, couple long slings- think range of quick draws annoying- buying again would look for karabiners in different colours.  This is for easy/mid multi pitch trad.

I had a short trial with racking on a bandolier but on overhanging ground all the gear swung away around my back.

I now use the Metolius gear sling that has loops.  It doesn't swing back unless you push it back.

One trick is to have one loose biner on the bandollier at the very back. Clip to the something at the back of yer harness (like the rear gear loop).

Also I generally prefer to have my gear racked on the harness for leads (loose slings over shoulder, double length crossed underneath with a clipped with a biner). But when I second, the bandollier is nice to clip stuff unto that you clean on that pitch. Then at the belay simply clip to the stand and the leadet can then rack how he likes (especially useful for block leading).

As mentioned above carrying one short sewn closed draw can be very useful for clipping pegs etc, also I take one in winter as a quick emergency fix if your front crampon bail breaks. Front point through each draw 'eye' and then crampon strap through the draw which forms the new front basket.......and yes I have seen front bails break, but fortunately not in critical situations. If you a cramp-o-matic wire front bail and have cut your retaining strap short you won't be able to apply this trick.

For rock I carry round the 18cm length and prefer to have a few 60cm slings over my neck for longer extensions, rather than faff with a sling draw.