UKH

Hi folks,

I'm in the market for a 2p tent for weekend climbing trips (peak district and portland locally, but also looking at trips to spain/france/austria/italy/etc) which is also light enough for the occasional backpacking trip. I have never camped in UK/Europe before so I'm not familiar with the weather conditions here. Most reviews online usually list a lot of tents designed for the US climate, and people are saying that these are not ideal for Europe, as its a lot rainier and windier (true?).

Main criteria are:

• the lighter, the better, at the minimum <1.5kg for backpacking,
• weatherproof for europe
• adequate ventilation (had some bad experiences with condensation and wet sleeping bags)
• 3 season is fine, as I don't plan to camp in snow (but not sure if 4 season would be required if I camped in the mountains here?)

I have found the following which have potential, but there are some concerns that I could not find an answer for. If anyone could offer any input, it would be much appreciated!

1. Slingfin 2Lite  or other similar US-style ultralight tents (Big Agnes, MSR, Nemo, etc): If I was still living in the US I would buy this one in a heartbeat. Its light, it has a full mesh inner (i.e. good ventilation), and it has a lot of storage space. But it uses lighter and less waterproof (based on hydrostatic head) materials which seem to be common for US brands, less common or very rare for European brands. This makes me think that generally these kind of tents are not suited for the climate, or am I wrong? This would be my preferred type of tent, I just don't know if they would be weatherproof enough for Europe. Link: https://www.alpinetrek.co.uk/slingfin-2lite-2-man-tent/
2. Nordisk Telemark 2 or similar tunnel tents: ticks all the boxes, except for ventilation. Based on my experience camping in the US and Asia, I would say that it will be a serious condensation trap, as the inner is made completely out of fabric with a tiny mesh window, so there wont be much airflow. Some reviewers have mentioned this issue, but some others say it is a great tent with no issues whatsoever. I dont understand how it would keep from getting completely drenched, unless the weather here does not cause as much condensation as in other parts of the world? Can anyone confirm/explain? Also applies to other similar designs (e.g. Terra Nova laser competition, helsport ringstind) Link: https://www.elitemountainsupplies.co.uk/camping-trekking-c4/tents-bivi-c15/...
3. Trekkertent Stealth 2 or trekking pole tents: looks like a rly sweet setup, its light + its a small local brand. The guy claims the tents are designed for the Scottish highlands, but I am skeptical, as its a trekking pole tent, not sure if these would hold up in stormy conditions? No experience with this kind of tent. Link: http://www.trekkertent.com/home/home/7-stealth-2.html

Thanks for your time!

In reply to abstractmachine:

Have a look at the Vango and MSR tents, you see a lot of them in Scotland.    For Scottish summer you want something that will deal with rain, wet ground and midges.

In reply to abstractmachine:

I haven't hiked in the US but my impression is that in general they seem to tend towards more ultralight than in Europe, which seems to support the idea that their shelters take a bit less abuse. My climbing partner did the PCT last summer and said he would have been happy enough with a tarp and bivvy, which you have to be fairly masochistic to do in Scotland because it's so damp and windy. He had a Laser Comp, like that Nordisk, which he's a big fan of.

Having said that, I've cycled and hiked all over Europe and I've changed from a double wall tent (Hilleberg Jannu) to a UL pyramid (MLD Duomid) and for 3 season use, this has worked out well. A pyramid is surprisingly strong as unlike most tents, the pole isn't the weak point but you do need good anchors. This sometimes is a problem if you are hiking and can't find enough flat space for a decent taut pitch, but on most trails you can find something. I know the Duomids were popular on the TGO at one point, so this sort of tent will do the job in Scotland but condensation is probably always an issue to some extent in a damp place. I have used the Duomid in winter and up to ~3500m but I am moving to a single skin bivvy tent for those conditions (MSR Advance Pro). I now use the Jannu only on serious mountain trips where I'm leaving the tent set up unattended. 

Looking at your options, the Slingfin's pole design looks like a weak spot, in changeable high winds I'd imagine they would be the first thing to break. I have no experience with the Nordisk but it looks decent, I hear Hilleberg Aktos with the same design can have problems with condensation so your concerns might be justified. As above, MSRs are decent, probably see more Hubba Hubbas on trails in Europe than any other tent. If it were me, I'd be looking at UL shelters with an inner (MLD, HMG, ZPacks). I would be confident in this setup on any trail in Europe in 3 season conditions, provided some care is taken with how and where you pitch it.

In reply to abstractmachine: I dont know if this may be of interest to you but I have for sale my MSR Hubba Hubba HP. This is the 2 man high performance version of the Hubba Hubba series. It has a Flysheet that goes lower than the standard Hubba Hubbas and has less mesh inside making it much more suitable for UK use.

Differences between the HP and NX  https://www.outdoorgear.co.uk/msr-hubba-nx-vs-hp.asp

Its been used for about 10 days in total and is in perfect condition except for a small tear on the Flysheet (approx 2") which has been taped up. This tear is on the fabric underneath one of the end vents and is not actually affected by any rain or is even visible once the tent is pitched.

However I also acquired a brand new unused green Hubba Hubba HP flysheet for it which would be included in any sale.

There is also a Gear Loft and Footprint included

£225 includes recorded delivery

Specifications-    https://www.climbers-shop.com/10898530/products/msr-hubba-hubba-hp-tent.asp...

Review -  https://www.67hours.co.uk/kit/hubba-hubba-hp-review

In reply to abstractmachineI

Thought you were looking at spending 2p on a tent...

In reply to abstractmachine:

I can vouch for the Trekkertent, I've got a 1.5 and have used it loads.

It's plenty light and roomy for the weight. It copes very well with rain due to the steep sides and is very well ventilated, especially if you get the rear door option. It's good in the wind if its pitched end on but can flap a bit if the wind comes from the side. In that scenario the outer can press through onto the inner. It's also a little fiddly to pitch until you get used to it. Those are really the only limitations and I find it to be far better than the TN Laser it replaced.

In reply to abstractmachine:

I wrote a review of the Nordisk Telemark a while ago. It's for the 1 person but the main points are pretty similar.

Personally overall I wouldn't recommend it.

https://www.jbmountainskills.co.uk/post/nordisk-telemark-tent-review

In reply to abstractmachine:

I rate my Alpkit Ordos 2 which has been really good over the last few years for solo backpacking but with enough room for two. 

I was initially sceptical about how it would survive long term use and bad weather but it has kept me dry in some fairly nasty weather, including storm Hannah last year, though I haven't given it any serious mountain conditions yet.

My only real gripe is that it is inner pitch first so I tend to wait for a break in the weather before pitching it as the inner is mainly mesh.

Overall though, I'm very happy with it.

In reply to abstractmachine:

My advice would be to avoid mesh inners for UK and much of Europe. Under normal prevailing weather conditions some condensation is a fact of life here but it forms on the inside of the outer tent not normally on the inner. Condensation may drip of the outer, or be shaken off by gusts of wind and will land on the inner which will leak like a seive if it's mesh (because it's full of holes!) making your sleeping bag damp.

Mesh inners will also allow wind to blow through your tent making it significantly colder. Even in still air mesh inners are noticeably colder, I did once read of some research (unfortunately I can't remember where now) which suggested 4 to 5C colder in still air as all the warm air generated by you escapes throught he holes much more easily.

The weight saving of a mesh inner over a fabric (assuming genuinely lightweight fabrics are used) is trivial, perhaps 30g or so and if you have to use an extra season warmth sleeping bag the extra weight of that will be greater than any saving on the tent.

Almost all tents will still have a mesh section in the door which can allow some air circulation in hot weather.

I'd also recommend an outer pitching first tent for the UK, an inner can get very wet very quickly if pitching it in heavy rain.

Have a look here for some ideas, the tents should be ranked lightest to heaviest.

https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/tents-shelters-c25/two...

Note that many of these will have mesh inners or be inner pitching first however. Each tent has a section below it with all the relevant stats etc which is useful. Also many of the quoted weights may not include pegs and or poles.

An budget alternative which seems to get very good reviews is this trekking pole tent (there's also a few videos of it on youtube).

https://thriftyhiker.com/3f-ul-gear-lanshan-2-tent-review/

https://www.trailspace.com/gear/3f-gear/lanshan-2/

The 4 season version is no stronger than the 3, it just has a fabric inner rather than mesh. Unfortunately it's harder to find sellers of the 4 season version.

You can get them on ebay for not much over £100 or AliExpress

https://tinyurl.com/srpdblh

but if buying direct from China it may take weeks to arrive and you may have to pay import duty.

In reply to abstractmachine:

Disclaimer: I've not used any of the tents you linked but I did spend a few months in an ultralite MSR microzoid in the USA.

I would say the answer depends on how much weather you want to put up with.

- Both the Trekkertent Stealth 2 and the Slingfin2Lite have mesh inner tents so they will be cold as hell in any wind and the weight you save will just have to be invested in a warmer sleeping bag. Also, when it is really moist and unpleasant, the condensation on the outer tent is going to drip straight through that mesh inner.

- All 3 of the tents you linked are tunnel tents, which means that you are completely reliant on the holding strength of the pegs to keep the tent up - if you are on hard ground or gravelly ground or sandy ground where the pegs don't hold, your tent is going to fall down when it starts to get windy.

- If the weather is crap and you want to cook in the porch of your tent (yes, I know many people will say this is very dangerous and never do it, so it's a personal choice), it looks like it might be possible (but worrying in the Trekkertent Stealth 2, but definitely not in the others. It's hard to be sure without actually using the Stealth 2.

I've had a Terra Nova Voyager for 12 years (I know because the other day I randomly found the receipt for it) and it has stood the test of everything from storms to time to UV to ants. I have used it less recently but for many years I used it a lot and in the worst conditions it held solid. When it's cold the inner has no ventilation, when it's warm, you can zip the inner door back to give a lot of ventilation where your head is. I've never had a problem with condensation on the inner tent. The outer shell gets lots of condensation but in my experience, when the climate is either cold or humid, that is unavoidable. The porch is also big enough to cook in. If you want a truely indestructible

BUT, it's a fair bit heavier than you wanted. Thing is, if you buy an ultralight tent, it isn't going to be great for grim conditions, if you buy a tent that is great for grim conditions, it isn't going to be ultralight. So you have to either compromise or decide whether weight or comfort/performance is what you are looking for.

Final thoughts: If it's not made in the UK, you need to check the size of the holes in the mesh - I've bought other things from abroad before only to discover the mesh holes are too big and midges just crawl straight through. When you get your tent, set it up in your living room when you get it and practice spending some time inside with a friend to see if there is enough space that you would be happy spending hours in there together on a wet evening.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Read the MSR tent review thread on here before buying one of those.

In reply to Deadeye:

If you mean this one https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/camping/tents+bivvys/msr_zoic_2_tent-12333 yes absolutely! The thread attached to it got interesting though - although I never inquired further with MSR in the UK. 

But another MSR tent I think is great for the UK (although heavy compared to these more expensive or specialists ones https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/camping/tents+bivvys/msr_elixir_1_tent-1139...

In reply to TobyA:

TobyA, you had the 2018 updated version in your Elixir review, I think. How did you find the new vestibule with two peg points? I have the old version (vestibule with single peg point), and the porch tended to flap a little in heavier winds (due to geometry I could not get it tight enough with just one peg attachment point). Otherwise, it's my favourite 3-season tent, at times even for milder winter snow camping. Sure, something like a Hilleberg could be better, but money is an issue. Still awaiting some conclusion on the problems you had with the Zoic though

In reply to henwardian:

You can get a solid inner for the Stealth 1.5. Don't see one listed for the 2 but I suspect Marc would do one if asked, he seems to be pretty good like that.

In reply to Frank R.:

I didn't realise there were earlier versions Frank but from memory, the Elixir is quite solid in wind, no flapping issues at all that I recall. The porch is a really good size as well I imagine an extra peg point would increase the floor space slightly as well.

I'm not sure if UKC got any feedback from MSR after the Zoic reviews - I'll ask gear editor Dan.

In reply to TobyA:Theo got this reply from MSR which he posted in Dec

In reply to leon 1:

Hi all, MSR have issued the following statement to clarify the issue:

"In the US and Canada, MSR found that a small number of tents with our Xtreme Shield precision stitched seams were not performing to our waterproof standards, and made the decision to contact customers directly about this.  

This communication was not a product recall. It was designed to inform customers about the potential issue, and outline key steps they could take to prevent it.

The communication was also listed as an FAQ on the global MSR website. This was done in error, as the issue above is not relevant to the European market.

For our customers in Europe, we continue to offer a three-year limited warranty service on all of our tents. This includes the repair or replacement of parts or materials that are deemed defective.  In instances where we no longer manufacture the product, or feel that it cannot be repaired, we will offer to replace your product with one of comparable value and function.

Going forward, to prevent this issue from impacting our European customers, all new MSR tents with Xtreme Shield will be seam sealed at production.

We apologise for any confusion caused, and as always, are grateful for the trust our customers have in our brand."

Hope that helps and if you have any specific questions following on from it I'm happy to send them over to MSR.

In reply to leon 1:

Thanks Leon - I guess it was a separate thread you maybe started where this came up? I was confused and thought that reply had been linked to the thread from my review of the Zoic. What that doesn't say though is what happens to European tents bought before the seam sealing started because presumably my review one leaked because the seams "were not performing to our waterproof standards" - so it does seem to be issue in Europe as well as in North America!

In reply to TobyA: Heres the thread I started in Nov. I couldnt reply on the original Zoic 2 review as it had been archived. It`d be worth checking the batch nos against the Zoic 2 you got as yours was possibly one of the early US ones shipped over for reviews. https://support.cascadedesigns.com/s/article/Seam-Sealing-Service-and-Suppo...

The FAQ section where I got the original info has now been changed so that seam sealing is no longer mentioned 

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/gear/msr_tents_2019_-_seam_sealing_rec...

In reply to leon 1:

Thanks for digging that out! You may well be right that the review tent was US stock and the ones sold here were slightly different. I'll see if I can find the batch number on mine at some point.

In reply to abstractmachine:

I think you'll struggle to get a tent for 2p

In reply to TobyA:

Yes, even the older version is pretty solid, it's just the porch that flaps a bit. Mainly because it sags a little as it is pegged with just one peg in the middle, although it still better than many other tents (I lived through some nice storms with the old tent still somewhat in comfort). I believe the Elixir 2018 version added two pegs to the porch, at least from your review photos, the vestibule seemed more tighter, which would be a good thing.

In reply to Frank R.:

You have to be organised to not lose that extra peg though, if you unhook the fly from it to open the front of the tent more! In longer grass its a pain - particularly when you are red (the tent pegs all seem to be red!) and green colour blind like me!