Do I have to use a quickdraw with a cam/friend?

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 geoffwhite 21 Oct 2019

Hi, I'm fairly new to trad, and I've got a query about using cams/friends.

Do I need to use a quickdraw with them? They already have webbing on them, and I clip them to my harness using a wire gate carabiner of the same rating I use on my quickdraws. Does that mean I can clip the rope directly into the carabiner on the cam? Why would I use a quickdraw?

Any advice? Thanks!

 Jon Read 21 Oct 2019
In reply to geoffwhite:

Yes you can just clip the rope in the carabiner with the cam. You would look to extend the runner with a quickdraw or sling to avoid rope drag (placement is off to the side, or is under a roof, for example) or to prevent movement of the rope helping the cam 'walk' into the crack (and possibly getting stuck).

 kathrync 21 Oct 2019
In reply to geoffwhite:

You can clip directly into the wire gate.  However, unless your route is straight up I would recommend extending with a quickdraw.  This will reduce rope-drag on routes that wander around, making it easier for you to climb, and reducing the chance that tension through the rope will tug your cam around causing it to "walk" into a position that it is difficult to remove it from or lifting it out of its placement completely.

Some cams have extendable slings.  I would always extend these, and sometimes add a quickdraw as well depending on the route.  For cams with fixed slings, I would normally just add a quickdraw as a matter of course, unless it is a straight up route and I am running short of draws.

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 Coel Hellier 21 Oct 2019
In reply to kathrync:

> Some cams have extendable slings.  I would always extend these, and sometimes add a quickdraw as well depending on the route. 

It very much depends on the pitch and how the ropes will run.  If it's a 40-m pitch then yes, extend the cams to reduce overall rope drag.  If it's a 10-m pitch with two ropes, then often I won't even extend the extendable sling, never mind adding a quick draw. 

Post edited at 13:41
In reply to geoffwhite:

No you don't have to use a quickdraw. Whether you do is dependant on the need to reduce drag. 

Another factor to consider is that it the start is difficult, and the cam is your only bit of gear, and it is low down, you may not want to extend it to reduce the chance of hitting the deck.

OP geoffwhite 21 Oct 2019

Thanks for all your speedy advice! That looks fairly unanimous.

Yes, I understand the idea of using a quickdraw to extend to prevent rope drag. I actually have DMM cams with extendable slings too, which are great (which was why I was asking if I always needed to use quickdraw).

In fact, I couldn't see any other manufacturers using extensible slings (eg Wild Country). Does anyone else do them?

 jkarran 21 Oct 2019
In reply to geoffwhite:

> Do I need to use a quickdraw with them? They already have webbing on them, and I clip them to my harness using a wire gate carabiner of the same rating I use on my quickdraws. Does that mean I can clip the rope directly into the carabiner on the cam? Why would I use a quickdraw?

Yes you can do that. On short or very direct routes it often makes sense.

Sometimes in order to keep ropes running in straight lines or gentle curves between inconveniently placed runners you need some additional extension on the runner.

Sometimes the placement isn't ideal and the moving rope waggling the cam can cause it to walk or flip into an unsafe position/orientation, here the sling or quickdraw provides a bit of additional isolation between rope and cam (though a back-up/better runner would be first choice).

jk

 FreshSlate 21 Oct 2019
In reply to geoffwhite:

> Thanks for all your speedy advice! That looks fairly unanimous.

> Yes, I understand the idea of using a quickdraw to extend to prevent rope drag. I actually have DMM cams with extendable slings too, which are great (which was why I was asking if I always needed to use quickdraw).

> In fact, I couldn't see any other manufacturers using extensible slings (eg Wild Country). Does anyone else do them?

Hi Geoff,

With dragons you'll do one of about 5 things depending on how much extension you need.

a) Just clip the carabiner  (I do this maybe 40% of the time)

b) Extend the sling (40%) 

c) Use a quickdraw on the doubled up cam sling (10%)

d) Use a quickdraw to clip the extended sling (5%)

e) Go for something even longer e.g. trippled up quickdraw (60cm), 120cm or 240cm sling (>5%).

This is very rough and varies massively depening on what sort of climbing you are doing. On a 10m crack route you will tend to extend less whilst on a wandering mountain route you will tend to extend more.

The answer to do you need quickdraws with dragons is: sometimes. 

WC do extendible slings on the friends as far as I know. 

 David Coley 21 Oct 2019
In reply to geoffwhite:

We should probably all extend cams more often and further than we do in vertical (rather than horizontal) cracks.

We are taught to place cams with the stem pointing in the direction of the force than will be applied during a fall. In most cases this means nearly straight down. What we should be taught is to place cam such that by the time we fall off they are still pointing down.

As you move up above the cam, your waist is likely to be out from the wall and the previous runners will be causing drag, this means the cam will rotate, often to be horizontal.

Cams hold when a force is applied perpendicular to the cam, i.e. along the stem. If the stem is pointing straight out this can’t happen and the cam has little holding power. What will happen is that the cam will rotate. Cams don’t rotate at the mid point of the axle, but about their outer cams, i.e. the inner cams are pushed up. So during the period of rotation, you are being held by the outer lobes only. These are often the lobes where the rock is wider, curved, weaker, and hence the placement might fail. 

It is worth studying cams when cleaning the pitch, are they still pointing downwards? They should be, but often are not. Ask yourself, would you be happy to lob onto it? Or would you prefer to rotate it downwards, then jump.

This effect of being pulled upwards to the horizontal is greater the greater the drag and tension in the rope. So when you fall off, almost all cams get dragged up. (Watch the draws as you pull the rope at the climbing wall – they all go horizontal, and they are perfectly aligned with little drag and you gently pulling the rope with little tension.) So, in a fall, if the top piece holds for a fraction of second, then blows, the cam below is very likely to now be horizontal, possibly even pointing upwards. Unless you extend, it is quite possible that that slightly higher, not very good, back up piece you placed mid-way through the crux might be your downfall by increasing the possibility of the low bomber piece failing

I think the problem is that we were taught to extend to reduce drag, but it might not have been explained why drag is dangerous, rather than just a pain. Drag lifts cams and wires out or into non-ideal orientations.

 Offwidth 21 Oct 2019
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

The vast majority of low runners I see placed on grit are counter-productive nervous responses. The climber will hit the ground anyway and the low runner just adds drag (and possible other rope work issues) that may be a real problem further up the route. The only reasons people should be placing runners from the ground are weird start moves where the leader might invert or because the ground drops away below (in some such cases the start belay may need protecting as well but the belayer can remove the runner once good gear is in place above).

If, as I hope, you mean lowish runners, a first runner (and every so often runner) cam on a steepening nut protected crack can stop nuts unzipping. It's one reason I like microcams in peg scarred cracks (I was lucky enough to get hold of some offset aliens).

On long pitches good half rope technique on two ropes can really help make extension issues less serious, but still some additional extension on cams as runners should be normal, for the reasons David describes. I think too many climbers are in complete denial if they think an extra extender will usually make any difference on what will be a big lead fall if say 40m+ up a route.

Post edited at 17:35
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 pec 21 Oct 2019
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> It very much depends on the pitch and how the ropes will run.  If it's a 40-m pitch then yes, extend the cams to reduce overall rope drag.  If it's a 10-m pitch with two ropes, then often I won't even extend the extendable sling, never mind adding a quick draw. 


Yes, I once witnessed someone climbing a 10m route which was plumb straight. They placed a cam at about 4m as their first runner, extended the sewn in tape loop and then extended that with a 120cm sling so that the rope clipped krab was barely 2m off the ground. With a bit of inevitable slack in the system and some rope stretch they'd have decked out before they'd even passed the cam.

I think a lot of people overdo the extending business!

 Pero 21 Oct 2019
In reply to geoffwhite:

I suggest an empirical approach.  When you're climbing take a look at the gear other people place - in this case unextended cams.  Do they generally stay in place?  Does it look like the rope is pulling them about?  Compare this with extended cams.

And, encourage your seconds to comment on your own cam placements.

In reply to geoffwhite:

On a parallel crack no, but most places in England yes. Rope drag sucks, but walking cams are downright dangerous. 

In reply to Jon Read:

In parallel splitter cracks, which are the essential domain of cams, extensions are not necessary. Nor should the cam axles be vertical, but canted outwards at maybe 10 or 20 degrees. This is not an exact science but an intuitive thing based on the cumulative experience of falling off.

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 kathrync 22 Oct 2019
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Fair enough, each to their own.  I generally use at least the extendable sling, probably around 80% of the time, for the reasons given by David Coley above. I like my cams to stay where I put them and I find a little extra flexibility in the system helps with this. It does depends on other factors too - for example who is belaying me (with particular attention to how generouse they are with the slack) and how high up on the route the cam is placed.

 Jon Read 22 Oct 2019
In reply to John Stainforth:

John, can you expand on why you think the cams should be set at an angle? I know that having them at a slight angle makes it easier to place/remove, but I can't think of any reason why one wouldn't point them in the anticipated direction of load.

In reply to Jon Read:

That is exactly what I meant - that the stems should be placed in the anticipated direction of maximum load - although I think I expressed myself badly: I meant angled *slightly* out from the vertical. I am talking vertical cracks here. (My 10 to 20 degrees was probably overdoing it, and possibly the cause of the dislikes I received for my post.) This is because a falling climber usually falls slightly outwards from the rock, at least during the initial part of a fall, so that there is a component of outward momentum and the resultant force is not truly vertical. The outward component can be quite substantial in the rare cases where a climber's hands burst off the rock whilst pressing hard with the feet, e.g. whilst strenuously laybacking with the hands on a sloping edge. Also, as you say, angling the stems slightly outward makes the cams slightly easier to place and remove. It also keeps the carabiners out of the crack: having carabiners in the crack increases the chance of funny loads on the carabiners or gates being opened by the rock.

I think a few of the instructional books several decades ago made exactly the points I am making.

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 Jon Read 22 Oct 2019
In reply to John Stainforth:

> ... It also keeps the carabiners out of the crack: having carabiners in the crack increases the chance of funny loads on the carabiners or gates being opened by the rock.

A really good point; I often find myself re-positioning gear so that first carabiner isn't see-sawing on the rock in a dodgy way.

 Sean Kelly 22 Oct 2019
In reply to David Coley:

After reading all that Dave I will continue to stick with my nuts. Less complications!

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In reply to Sean Kelly:

Good for you. Most of UK climbing is well protected by nuts.

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In reply to John Stainforth:

It would be useful to know what the dislikers are disliking here. I welcome your comments, so that we can have a constructive discussion.

 pass and peak 23 Oct 2019
In reply to geoffwhite:

> In fact, I couldn't see any other manufacturers using extensible slings (eg Wild Country). Does anyone else do them?

You'll notice that the cams that have extendable slings have narrow sling profiles. Slings being textile have a certain life expectancy and are usually passed it long before the cam itself is shot. DMM are one of the few manufactures that offer a re-slinging service, so makes sense to have thinner extendable slings. Black diamond camalots for example have a really chunky non extendable sling/loop which they say has a significantly longer life expectancy. Value for money wise I'd be wary of buying new cams with extendable slings were the manufacture doesn't offer a re-slinging service!

 Jon Read 23 Oct 2019
In reply to John Stainforth:

None from me, John. I see no positives to the dislike button on this site.

 Martin Hore 23 Oct 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

>  I think too many climbers are in complete denial if they think an extra extender will usually make any difference on what will be a big lead fall if say 40m+ up a route.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think the difference an extra extender will make to the length of a leader fall onto the runner in question is always twice the length of the extender. Whether this will make any difference depends on whether there is something nasty you will hit if the extender is in place that you would not hit if the extender is omitted. I'm not sure how far up the route you are is relevant.

Having said this, most of the time, for all the reasons others have stated, I extend, and usually with longer extenders (30cm or 60cm) than I see many other climbers using. However, if I'm faced with a really tricky crux move, with easier ground and more protection possibilities above, I do sometimes use the shortest extension I can, just to protect and give me maximum confidence for that move. 

Martin

 Martin W 24 Oct 2019
In reply to pec:

> With a bit of inevitable slack in the system and some rope stretch they'd have decked out before they'd even passed the cam.

Er, you may want to rethink that statement?  As I read it, you can't "deck out before passing the cam" unless the cam was placed below ground...

 Coel Hellier 24 Oct 2019
In reply to Martin W:

> As I read it, you can't "deck out before passing the cam" unless the cam was placed below ground...

You can if the biner at the end of the sling is way below the actual cam!  

 stevevans5 24 Oct 2019
In reply to Martin W:

As in if you fell before climbing as high as the cam you would deck, as opposed to hitting the floor before falling as low as the cam.

 Alkis 24 Oct 2019
In reply to John Stainforth:

I am not the disliker but my guess would be that a lot of the grit is not adequately protected by nuts, and that forms a lot of the average UK climber's diet.

Post edited at 10:33
In reply to John Stainforth:

> It would be useful to know what the dislikers are disliking here. I welcome your comments, so that we can have a constructive discussion.

The original post wasn't very clear and it sounded like you were angling cams for no reason and got 3 dislikes.

Your second post clarified all this and got 2 likes and one dislike. (the one dislike might have been a mistake so I wouldn't worry) 

I wasn't a disliker BTW.

 David Coley 24 Oct 2019
In reply to geoffwhite:

Just to emphasise the point I made earlier. One reason to extend a cam is to make sure it is still pointing in the direction you placed it - when you need it. 

If you fancy an experiment, place a lot of cams without extension in vertical cracks on a pitch. Best if slightly wondering. Place them with the stems point down/slightly out as normal. Clip the belay and lower off, looking at the cams on the way down. Chances are, many will no longer be correctly aligned.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

The recent video of Hazel Findlay placing cams on Concepcion, and falling off same, illustrates vividly what I was trying to say in words


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