NEWS: UKC/UKH Joins Covering Climate Now Campaign

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 UKC/UKH News 20 Sep 2019
Covering Climate Now. UKClimbing.com and UKHillwalking.com are joining over 300 media outlets worldwide as part of the Covering Climate Now initiative to increase and improve coverage on climate change.

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1
 CragRat11 20 Sep 2019
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Glad to see UKC stepping in to this. Thanks.

 LeeWood 20 Sep 2019
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

Interesting to note that we collectively are in a position perhaps more than any other such group - to witness without a doubt - climatic change, as evidenced by glacier retreat. 

Well done UKC - 'the times - they are a changin' '

 Simon Caldwell 20 Sep 2019
In reply to LeeWood:

and of course to contribute to climate change, by travelling to the aforementioned retreating glaciers...

5
Ian Carey 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

'Travel' is perhaps the elephant in the room!

It's great to see in-depth articles about the effects of global heating, so well done UKC.

But what are the solutions?

In general, the scientific advice is to consume less. For us in the developed world that means consuming a lot less.

For many climbers, our travel is a  significant contribution to global heating.

This travel is celebrated by us as exploring and adventure is what motivates us.

So how do we travel less but still have adventures?

PS: this post comes from the back of a car traveling from Sheffield to Llanberis for some climbing.

1
 LeeWood 21 Sep 2019
In reply to Ian Carey:

> So how do we travel less but still have adventures?

Travel which doesn't involve leaving the ground would be a good start.  

 Robert Durran 21 Sep 2019
In reply to LeeWood:

> > So how do we travel less but still have adventures?

> Travel which doesn't involve leaving the ground would be a good start.  

So does that mean most bouldering is ok?

1
 Offwidth 21 Sep 2019
In reply to Ian Carey:

I have a more optimistic view on the contribution mountaineers, climbers and hillwalkers can make to this. We are producing carbon but can offset that and we are important witnesses and can be clear voices for change.

The real problems with climate change are pan-national issues that relate to electricity generation, burning fuel, inefficient use of heat and power (be it anything from inefficient buildings to production and shipping of wasteful consumer goods),  transport, farming,  deforestation and the often understated benefits that might come from research in how to slow global warming by methods other than just 'turning off carbon'.

The most important thing to do on these big picture issues are to campaign for governments to act and to celebrate and encourage others doing so, to generate even more momentum in the western population. 

In comparison individual travel is a drop in the ocean and mountaineers can look at how they travel and what they do afterwards with their time (report more on the tragedy of the glacier damage they saw since last time than on the climbs). Anything from offsetting flights to more use of public transport and more efficient cars more efficiently used (car share). More of a local focus is always good be it indoors or the local hills and crags.

I find the cynical snippyness in say the likes of Simon's and and even more so summo's posts unhelpful (it's inconsistent with anything other than guilt and acts to dampen the growing momentum). I'd prefer forgiveness and gently encouragement of better actions for individual change.

It is important to remain evidenced based. I was told at school in the 1970s that oil would have run out 10 years ago. The green campaigners today look much more like serious science based activists  than they did. The involvement of so many kids is just fantastic.

6
 JohnG 21 Sep 2019
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

It's good that UKC/UKH are taking this initiative and all the comments are valid in their way but, I think the real elephant in the room is that what keeps this website going is advertising i.e. the constant encouragement to consume more and the effort to convince us that we can't possibly manage a moment longer without some new acquisition (or travel to some new place). We do need to try to bring about political change and it's great that this pressure is coming from the young but we also need to stop being taken in by the big corporations (including the social media organisations etc.) who really run the show. I would recommend Yvon Chouinard’s book “let my people go surfing” (resist the temptation to dismiss it as a treatise on self congratulation), Kate Raworth’s “Doughnut Economics” and David Pilling’s “The Growth Delusion” to put some of the self-congratulatory dogmas into context.

 LeeWood 21 Sep 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

> In comparison individual travel is a drop in the ocean

Maybe. But its important not to wait for government because we don't know how fast they will act. A balanced approach is not to let up with appropriate lobbying while making changes that we can implement directly. When enough people are heard to say "I'm not taking the plane because ..." or "I've quit/reduced my meat consumption because ..." it will eventually become fashionable and those who cross into our social circle will follow suit by example.

OK maybe I'm dreaming ... but thats the principle

 LeeWood 21 Sep 2019
In reply to JohnG:

> the real elephant in the room is that what keeps this website going is advertising i.e. the constant encouragement to consume more and the effort to convince us that we can't possibly manage a moment longer without some new acquisition (or travel to some new place).

Ouf !

Time to encourage the advertisers / manufacturers - Patagonia are making efforts in the right direction  

 Robert Durran 22 Sep 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

> I have a more optimistic view on the contribution mountaineers, climbers and hillwalkers can make to this. We are producing carbon but can offset that and we are important witnesses and can be clear voices for change.

This seems to me to be a very thin excuse for flying off to the mountains - documentaries and the internet spread the message far more efficiently. Can I also have guilt free trips to Africa because I can come back with a few photos of rhinoceroses and tell my friends how terrible it is that they are threatened?

 mrphilipoldham 22 Sep 2019
In reply to JohnG:

I must admit I was somewhat dismayed by the latest (and my last) BMC mag that dropped through my letterbox the other morning. Nothing but adverts for products and climbing holidays, reviews of new products, competitions to win new products, celebration of a competition climber on the front cover who’s carbon footprint must be multiples of what most of the UK bound readership is.. 

2
 planetmarshall 22 Sep 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Cognitive dissonance is a key part of the human condition. How many people will be out today taking their beloved pets for walks having started the day with a bacon sandwich.

1
 LeeWood 22 Sep 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

We have to keep good relations with commerce. Can UKC put a tarif on forum-subscriber access if there were no advertising ? This would help motivate us !

What I suggest we need from manufacturers is greater assurance of quality, reliability, longevity and repairability.  Origins from recycled materials. Absence of micro-fibre shedding.

Example - I have several jkts which become almost useless as soon as zips malfunction. I have likewise numerous footwear which are rendered useless when soles come unstuck. In both instances - jkts + footwear, all the materials are present and will eventually contribute to landfill for little good reason.

Happily not true for metallic hardware - friends and krabs last for years. I'm working on rope choice - should never have bought a lightweight 70m - wearing out too quickly after 3yrs - but I was fairly warned. And my Scarpa Superatz still going strong after 35yrs  

 Offwidth 23 Sep 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

It's the opposite of a thin excuse. If offset was priced into every flight there would be way fewer of them overall. Never mind Rhinos, did you travel overland on those trips to Wadi Rum that you recommend to UKC.

 Offwidth 23 Sep 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Plus: readers' action shots on p.3   ; in the first written paragraph on p.5 we have  'advertising' of  this https://www.blackdogoutdoors.co.uk ; p.8 news on Mend our Mountains; news on the Stephen Fletcher Legacy to the three BMC charities (The Access and Conservation Trust, Mountain Heritage, and the Land and Property Trust) ;  news of Tom Livingstones Piolet d'Or win; the new Snowdon live weather facility from the BMC; Women in Adventure Film;  announcement of Jesse Duttons film (leading The Old Man of Hoy as a Blind Climber)..... all by p.10.... and there is plenty more for those with a glass half full.

 tjdodd 23 Sep 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

Whilst I agree that the big issues need to be tackled as this will need governmental action.  I also think individual behaviour is really important.  Lots of individual actions can add up to big impacts.  It is also about individuals setting an/leading by example.  I also find that the more actions you take as an individual the more you do - it is a ballooning effect.  The converse is that it is all too easy to just not bother with anything.

On the specific point of offsetting.  It is far better not to travel in the first place or even better again, do not fly and also contribute to things like reforestation.

On the point of climbers/mountaineers being able to report on the effects of climate change, that is utter nonsense.  You are saying that it is ok for environmentally conscious climbers to go traveling as they will spread the climate change message when they get back.  Firstly, I see no reason why climbers should be above anyone else in being able to justify their travel this way - what you are saying is elitist.  Secondly, I think most people would just say it is hypocritical for supposedly environmentally aware climbers to fly around the world doing some futile activity that they can do just as well in the UK, and for them to then come back and report about all the damage being done to the world from flying. 

A much stronger message would be to tell people that they had made a huge sacrifice in giving up on some amazing climbing, or even better the dream lifetime climbing destination, to help protect the climate so that there is perhaps the slightest chance future generations can experience some of what they have.

 Robert Durran 23 Sep 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

> It's the opposite of a thin excuse.

So are you really saying that it is a big fat good excuse?

> If offset was priced into every flight there would be way fewer of them overall.

It should definitely be priced in, but I think it would take a far, far higher carbon tax to deter people from flying. I've generously offset all my flights for this year and it came to about 5% of the cost of the flights, which I can very comfortably afford to pay - anyone who can afford the luxury of flying for leisure can easily afford offsetting.

> Never mind Rhinos, did you travel overland on those trips to Wadi Rum that you recommend to UKC.

No. I'm guilty as charged, but considering modifying my flying habits, despite foreign climbing trips being a very important part of my life.

Post edited at 08:56
 Offwidth 23 Sep 2019
In reply to tjdodd:

Telling people they have to make big sacrifices just won't work, unless as a step on the way to totalitarianism. Most climbers I know seem more sensible in their overall impact on the planet than the average person, and recently seem to be improving. Doing 'one's bit' is good and may make some feel 'warm and fuzzy' but its irrelevant in the big picture as the problem is too big and seems from recent data to be more urgent than we thought. Near future pan national government change is the only way and any extremist line simply won't help achieve that. A system change ordinary people can accept, like mass peaceful political protest to force political change, despite the carbon used to get to any 'marches', will really help. Tales of what has changed already are important parts of persuasion and people like climbers are very well placed to make such points; more so with the lobbying power of their member organisations. The only way I think we can 'dig ourselves out of the climate hole' is through such consensual political change in our constrained capitalist system, alongside much improved incentives and taxes such that those who do any damage pay for research on solutions, for green energy, for reforestation etc. Since any practical solutions will involve travel from an 'elite' I have no shame in encouraging them to do what is required and to ignore bogus accusations of hypocrisy from the right or the left.

1
 Damo 23 Sep 2019
In reply to Ian Carey:

> 'Travel' is perhaps the elephant in the room!

Yes and no. Air travel, particularly long-haul flights, emit an enormous amount of carbon and are increasingly hard to justify. But in the global picture, relatively few people take long-haul flights and very few take multiple ones a year. So overall air travel does not contribute a huge amount - it's intense, but small.

> In general, the scientific advice is to consume less. For us in the developed world that means consuming a lot less.

Yes. Given that in the west we a) eat too much and so many are overweight, b) waste much of the food we buy/cook and c) eat too much meat, compared to earlier generations and other cultures it's a pretty obvious and justifiable method of us reducing our carbon footprint. And given that more people eat than travel long-haul, the cumulative effect of individual action is considerable.

> So how do we travel less but still have adventures?

Why do you go on adventures? Do you need to travel by plane? I've taken countless long-haul flights over the years, plus thinking of the years of internal flights I've taken in Antarctica makes me cringe, but as I do less of that now I find myself experiencing an equal anticipation and joy in 'lesser' adventures that don't involve big name objectives but nice lines, good locations, and with friends, not team mates or expedition partners. If we think a bit differently about what exactly constitutes adventure, and what we truly enjoy, then I know I can get more satisfaction out of a long weekend climbing good rock routes in a new location interstate with friends than I often got out of a month-long trip to some snowy Himalayan hump up the end of a horrible moraine that wasn't worth the expensive red tape. Joy is where you find it.

 stevevans5 23 Sep 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

I think my problem with just putting it on the government to tackle climate change without anyone making any changes is that it's not that clear what you want them to do about it. Tax anything that has larger environmental issues? This would help but you're then just pricing less well-off people out of stuff which is hardly an egalitarian approach...

All the issues you mention like energy usage and deforestation follow from our desire to consume and as a result could be considered the individual actions of a lot of people. Someone said this on another thread but imagine the impact if the millions involved in protests made changes.  I'm not saying we shouldn't be trying to get the message that this is important to government, just that this message is diluted if the majority of our actions tell the opposite message. 

In reply to Offwidth:

>Most climbers I know seem more sensible in their overall impact on the planet than the average person, 

With some massive blind spots?

Permanently chalked and overbrushed boulders?

Fuel-hungry vans doing lots of leisure miles?

Above average leisure air travel?

Offsetting mitigates but how closely do people scrutinise offsetting schemes to verify what’s actually delivered? Once you factor in time lag you’ll need to offset measurably more than your original emission.

It all seems a bit like the pre-reformation habit of buying indulgences so you can sin at will.

And how do you expect people to support systemic change which may affect how they work and eat if others (an ‘elite’) won’t even moderate their leisure?

 Offwidth 23 Sep 2019
In reply to The Pulsing Motorik of Neu!:

All true but again you are focussing on personal impact rather than how much climbers try and influence governments, which should be the most important thing. Systematic change will occur because the science is clear and people are campaigning in increasing numbers. 

'Good ninjas' brush chalk and don't overbrush. They use vans to make longer trips with shorter hops and always dispose of waste properly. They offset air travel and take fewer but longer holidays involving flights; they ensure offsets meet their ecological scutiny. They clean crags and support charities that counter climate effects. They have often moderated and contributed for decades.

In reply to Offwidth:

I don’t think you can separate the personal and systemic that easily.

By flying regularly you support a model for living which encompasses regular flying.

Politicians will always be reluctant to challenge this model as it leaves them vulnerable to political opportunists promising to shield people from change.

So nothing gets done on the scale needed through our existing (fairly debased) politics.

 trailertrash 24 Sep 2019
In reply to UKC/UKH News:

For anyone interested in communication around global heating/biosphere crisis I recommend “Don’t even think about it” by George Marshall. Available, used, from most secondhand book outlets.

Post edited at 07:01
 Offwidth 25 Sep 2019
In reply to The Pulsing Motorik of Neu!:

Well we disagree as I think you can seperate them. Individuals should try to do what they can but the politics are far more important. Trying to guilt trip people who fly return once a year for reasons like needing to see their family, or a hoilday venue that inspires them to keep going in a tough job is OK for me (never mind the threats to the tourist industry relating to such flights). Here is the reality of UK flights:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/25/1-of-english-residents-...

I'd support the solutions... a small flat tax on a small quota and then fast rising tax for frequent fliers.

 Offwidth 26 Sep 2019
In reply to Offwidth:

That should have been trying to guilt trip ordinary people is NOT OK with me. Not quite sure about exile though...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/26/why-frequent-flyers-s...

In reply to Offwidth:

I guess we do disagree. If we were hip to the zeitgeist I’d probably have to call you a traitor or issue a death threat or something 😁


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