UKH

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2019/may/30/charging-wild-camping-20-pou...

Headline is slightly misleading but this is still a slightly odd story. Charging for a date and a location where you have permission to wildcamp. I’m with the author. Totally misses the point

In reply to toad:

I wonder how many takers this wonderful scheme will get. My guess would be a round number.

In reply to toad:

Bizzare, i didn't read it all but if it's as the strap line then how it's ever going to work is anybody's idea

What is going to kill wild camping in the Lakes is peoples interpretation of wild, its going the same way as the Loch Lomond shores, in the last few weeks i have seen chavs in the lakes about 10 yards off the road on Kirkstone complete with their portable BBQ and pop up tents, two large tents next to the Duddon near Seathwaite, again about 20 meters from the road and other tents dotted around here and there in clear view from the road in various locations, all totally inappropriate and the very opposite of wild.

In reply to toad:

Maybe this will be used by groups or professional outfits? If you've got someone paying you £300 for your wilderness experience weekend, then you may want to camp legally but remotely?

In reply to stevieb:

Yeah, mebee. Just seemed a bit of a contradiction

In reply to Guy Hurst:

It might appeal to the sort of people who use the horrible term "wild camping" as if it's a "thing" (another horrible term).

In reply to toad:

Wild camping is special and unique. I agree. getting "permission", paying a fee and being given a map reference totally misses the point. When I wild camp I don't broadcast it, and I don't leave a trace that I've been there. I also refuse to give people the location of my favourite wild camping spots when they request recommendations on this forum. It's a personal thing and if you start broadcasting it, it ceases to be wild. Maybe that's selfish, but half the pleasure of it is studying the map closely and exploring and finding these magical spots for yourself, not copying someone else's spot.

In reply to toad:

It seems to be the natural progression from the couple of highly popular Facebook groups for Peak and UK-wide wild camping that have sprung up. It's all become very overt (with people posting on the groups advertising where they're camping, organising organised wild camping trips (with notes like 'beginner-friendly camp', etc) and such things.

I can't see things ending well.

In reply to toad:

No surprise to me given the author has previous when it comes to publishing incorrect information. Attention seeking pish.

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In reply to Robert Durran:

It is the term used by the Lake District National Park Authority in their guidance literature for D of E gold groups who do wild camp on expedition.

Out of interest, what would you call it, as opposed to camping on a camp site?

In reply to angry pirate:

I can't speak for Robert but I call it camping.

In reply to aln:

I bet you've never been Nordic walking or wild swimming.

In reply to angry pirate:

It's a bivvy, a doss or a benightment, depending on circumstances.

In reply to Deadeye:

Indeed. I just had to search Nordic walking.... I walked away muttering and shaking my head...

In reply to aln:

I’m ambivalent on camping vs wild camping as both are human constructs with fancy equipment so by definition it isn’t a wild activity.  However I feel quite strongly that “wild swimming” is in fact just swimming.  Best done without any kit. So to speak.

In reply to wintertree:

I'm Not really fussed what other people call it. Swimming in rivers, lochs etc is indeed better without kit.

In reply to toad:

I don’t have a problem with this.  It opens up land to people, and by assigning grid references it could preserve the fragile illusion of aloneness for people.  

The main downside will be if it comes with enforcement against clandestine campers who have been causing no problems.

In reply to Robert Durran:

It's a BIG thing with some motorhome owners............

In reply to toad:

Who is going to collect/charge  the £20??  No park has the legal ability to charge for camping on property which it doesn't own and the vast majority of our parks are in private landowners possession.

In terms of legality of wild camping I've yet to come across many, I've never heard from people who've been chucked off our moorlands/uplands for putting a tent up for one or more nights.  Game keepers are the most frequent visitors to our NYMNP, over and above the infrequent farmers who keep sheep on't moors.  And the keepers are unlikely to do much about you unless you just happen to be camping prior or during a shoot.

In reply to angry pirate:

Yes, depressing isn't it?

Camping

Edit: I see Wintertree beat me to it.

In reply to aln:

What article did you find...? I'm sure Nordic walking isn't supposed to involve muttering and head-shaking...

In reply to Billhook:

The website. You book your place, and they send you the details, and, presumably, some 'booking confirmation' you can wave to whatever jobsworth someone might, or might not, send out to check on you.

In reply to aln:

I'm fussed. "Wild swimming" is even worse than "Wild camping". What are these wet suited people thinking?

Whatever next FFS? "Wild climbing" if it"s outside on real rock.

I despair........

In reply to Dark-Cloud:

Yep, I was genuinely shocked when I saw the state of Loch Lomond and other lochsides in the Trossachs a few years ago. A piss-up, lots of noise around a burning gate or two and just dump the rubbish and disposable tent. Great.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm genuinely torn on this. I've called it wild camping for thirty years now as a way to create a distinction between camping away from amenities and staying at camp sites with toilets, taps, etc and above all a financial transaction.

I think the comparison with climbing is somewhat spurious: there is a long tradition of climbing legally outdoors with indoor climbing being a recent beast; whereas wild camping has no basis in law in the majority of Britain (Dartmoor and Scotland excepted) and the use of camp sites has been a traditional holiday for a long time.

That said, I'll tell folk I'm going climbing for an evening and may go to the local bouldering wall or to a local outcrop without feeling the need to apply a distinction to it. Perhaps I use the term "wild camping" as a slightly snobby distinction to suggest that I indulge in leave no trace camping in remote locations rather than pitch a massive tent on a site and drink, listen to loud music and let my kids run amok (tongue in cheek a little here)

In reply to angry pirate:

Except to condemn it, I've never ever used the term "wild camping" in what is to me this new sense (I think I've only become aware of it's insidious creep in the last decade). If I need to make a distinction with campsite camping where it is not understood by the context, I think I would just say "going to a campsite" to differentiate from normal camping. However, I have used the term "wild camping" to differentiate roadside car camping from campsite car camping.

It may well be a Scotland/England thing; "wild camping" in either sense (ie not in a campsite) is, I think, just much more normal in Scotland being legal.

Someone mentioned D of E. I've been running D of E expeditions for many years at all three levels. All the camping is so callled "wild camping" but it is universally simply called "camping" - it is just normal. I've always thought the campsite-bound D of E I've witnessed south of the border a sadly poor and watered down imitation.

In reply to angry pirate:

Law, schmaw. People have been going on multi-day walking trips - and camping as necessary wherever - in places like the Lakes for many many years. The problem (and redefinition) possibly only arises now because some people might want to set up 'camp' next to a road for long periods.

In all of this discussion, is there any evidence that 'traditional' camping/bivouacing in the hills is causing any kind of a problem?

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Yeah , to continue the climbing analogy, pitching up for the weekend a hundred yards from the road is to the traditional night out somewhere remote as shinning up a drainpipe to get in an open window and make off with someone's telly is to a day out at Gimmer, and there's no reason for more enforcement of the rules against the former to have a significant impact on the latter.

This "sign up and get a grid reference" thing sounds like it's more to do with the remote nights out, though, and I'm not sure what to make of it. I hope it doesn't lead to less tolerance of people who are camping responsibly but haven't paid their twenty quid...

In reply to aln:

In Finnish it's called stick walking IIRC, the Nordic bit being rather redundant. Do be cynical if you want (in Nordic sports shops there is often a decent sized section selling shoes just for stick walking!) but in Finland what began as craze (promoted by cross country skiing pole manufacturers trying to expand their market) has had a significant impact on getting particularly middle aged and older women out and active. Many elderly people use their sticks just to go to the shop and such, perhaps better than a single walking stick, particularly in the winter months. I'm in Helsinki currently, and people seem more active here than in the UK. It's not perfect, increasing obesity levels etc, but the health situation is better here. People seem less embarrassed about going out and doing some kind of physical activity, and Nordic walking has been a big part of that over the last 20 years.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Where do your kids take a dump if even Bronze trips are wild camps?

In England they have to use campsites as they are following the law. Seems a bit hard to tell your average 15 year old that they have a watered down imitation Bronze award!

By the way, when I lived in Scotland of course we always wild camped, but my understanding was then, before the outdoor access code became law, the legal situation was basically the same as in England and Wales - you needed the landowner's permission, at least in theory.

In reply to TobyA:

They carry trowels to dig a hole and bury it appropriately. I always enjoy doing a demonstration, digging a hole right in the middle of the campsite, leaving them wondering whether I'm actually going to take dump right there and then in front of them...........

I don't actually tell them; it's just an observation. Obviously using a campsite with toilets and washrooms and loads of other people about is an utterly different experience to camping alone in the middle of nowhere.

No idea. I've never even thought about it!

The only change I've made to my camping habits over the years is to be more limited in my roadside camping. Now I'm more discrete and would be very unlikely to leave a tent up during the day - I almost always arrive in the evening and leave early - as more people are doing it, I think indiscriminate roadside camping is becoming less sustainable.

I do more and more resent and try to avoid using campsites though unless it is basically the increasingly uncommon field with a tap and a bog for a few pounds; paying more than £10 (sometimes a lot more) for completely unnecessary facilities really grates with me!

In reply to toad:

The website is misleading.  In England and Wales, apart from a few places where there are specific bylaws, wild camping in National Parks or elsewhere  is not "illegal", you are not breaking a law which says you may not camp  Many of the national parks, including the Lake District, actually encourage responsible wild camping, although they point out you should have the landowner's permission.  Without permission it is trespass, but if you do it properly the landowner shouldn't find out. and all they can do is tell you to move on, you are very unlikely to be sued unless you have caused damage. 

Before CRoW allowed wider access much of what we did in the hills was technically trespass, unless we were on a public right of way.  In practice, wild camping is often tolerated, or simply goes undiscovered.  However these don't seem to be wild camp spots in the sense that users of this forum will understand, they appear to be fairly accessible but lacking the usual facilities of a formal campsite (although some have showers and toilets!).   Presumably bookings will be limited to less than 28 days a year to avoid having to obtain planning permission.

This seems to be an attempt to make money from diverting valley campers away from more formal campsites (and perhaps to sell a book) with the illusion they are getting a wilderness experience.  The danger is that landowners will now see wild camping as an opportunity to make money and will become less tolerant of casual camping.   Could we see bailiffs patrolling the better-known spots demanding £20 a tent?

In reply to captain paranoia:

I think they call that rambling.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

I've a feeling the grid reference thing will be a significant filter- i.e. you need to be able to use an OS map to get to where you've booked. Either that or people with think 'F*ck that, ive paid my money I'll do what I want' Even with modern GPS jazz you still need to get there with all your kit.

In reply to Robert Durran:

If you fit your vehicle with an ex WD flamethrower  you don't even need to dig a hole and you can give an even more impresseve demonstration of how to dispose of your waste, right in the middle of the campsite, fire for effect!

In reply to Robert Durran:

I suspect your head would explode if I pointed you to a thread on the FB Freelance DofE assessors group, discussing recent encounters with forestry commission employees demanding that DofE groups require a permit to walk in their managed forests...

In reply to Trangia:

It's worth bearing in mind that there are others who think that sleeping in a campervan in a layby or city centre car park is wild camping.

Each to their own.