UKH

Recently I have noticed far too many drivers who indicate AS they are turning, rather than giving an indication prior to same, so that other road users can tell what they are about to do. I extrapolate this to mean that they do not (in all probability) use their mirrors (or just look) to see whether there are any other road users that their manoeuvre might cause grief to.

Now because I commute by motorbike I find this particularly worrying, especially so with the poor road surface conditions at present.

I am alone in believing that, however the driving test has (may have) been improved, we are getting a greater number of people who don't so much drive their cars, as just point them and "to hell with anyone else".

Glad it’s not just me. Absolutely p1sses me off on the motorway when people think use of their indicator somehow gives them automatic permission to pull out, irrespective of whether the coast is clear. 

But if they indicate, then it'll let the other drivers know where they want to go and how to block them off. If anything, you should indicate in the opposite direction to sell everyone else a dummy.

As a regular bicycle commuter I need to remind myself regularly that many drivers think that indicating imparts right of way.

Some day I'll have a rant about an abandoned court case for a hit and run.   A sorry tale of an offence and five separate attempts to avoid responsibility for it, that ultimately proved effective.  Unsurprisingly, the driver was known to the police, who have assured me that they'll cross paths with him again before too long.  

You do know that indicators are an optional extra on BMWs, Audis and Mercedes? Many drivers don't even have them fitted.

I think you'll find (from observable evidence) that the majority of car manufacturers have followed suit.

Indicators are to tell you what someone is already in the process of doing, in case you're too busy texting to have noticed they're already in your lane and only 6" in front of you.

I don't see any evidence that this problem is any worse than it always has been. I have noticed that it varies from area to area - anyone else seen that? I haven't driven there for a while but when I lived in Edinburgh very few people ever indicated. The other thing that I notice is that very few people signal at roundabouts, a place where it's often really useful.

I doubt this has much to do with the test.... if anything the test is much more stringent than it was 20 years ago.

The problem as I see it is a vast reduction in roads policing.... people acting like idiots used to get caught on a regular basis. I don't think I've seen any roads policing (other than at the scene of an accident) for about 4 years.

This together with more sophisticated ways of distracting yourself... phones, videos etc, and driving increasingly seen as a safe thing to do (in reality its probably the riskiest thing most people do) has led to a lot of complacency.

What the OP describes is annoying if you have to use energy to set off again, or if you could carry momentum for going up a hill, too.  A few times I've stopped and then found I needn't have done - I'll wait anyway (while still moving) in case it's an indicator which has been left on, but seeing it flashing can allow you to cycle a bit differently in anticipation of continuing. 

You've noticed drivers indicating as they turning What I'd give to see drivers indicating at all!

Dave

I think there is a section in the BMW driver's Manual that says, "The four lights, one on each corner, of your car have one specific use.

If you want to stop anywhere you damn well like. Press the triangle shaped button on the dash and all four will flash simultaneously. There no need to consider any other road uses when carrying out this procedure."

Dave

PS Apologies to all considerate BMW drivers, but please have a word with the others.

Forget Planck time, the smallest measurement of time used to be defined as the time from when an HGV driver puts their indicator on until the time they started to change lane. This has since been amended with 'an HGV' being changed to 'any'.

Slightly more seriously, I have noticed what fred99 says, particularly on motorways and motorway-type DCs where drivers cruise along seemingly oblivious to any traffic ahead in their lane and then, at the point when they are just about to drive into the back of the vehicle ahead, do the simultaneous indicate-manoeuvre.

No observation, awareness or planning whatsoever - can be applied to lots of other aspects of driving, too (not me, obvs, driving god wiv all the skillz, innit).

I'm pretty sure people have always been terrible at driving. Honestly, there is nothing quite like it: the operation of an extremely complex machine with 20 or 30 or more controls for different things which has the potential to easily kill multiple people and we expect essentially everyone to be able to operate it and to do so in such a blase manner as to be able to hold in depth conversations, fiddle with phones and gpses and generally relegate the driving to the automatic part of our brains.

The sooner the whole shebang is automated, the better.

(and as far as indicators are concerned - there isn't anything special about this particular odious practice; people have loads and loads of horrible driving habbits, the indicator is just one of those you can most easily see).

A good rule of thumb in freely moving traffic is that if someone actually needs to see you indicating, then you shouldn't be indicating in the first place; it is just a back up. In other words, if you look in the mirror, you should only proceed to signal and manoeuvre if your manoeuvre is not going to affect anyone else.

*lobs hand grenade into discussion.... 

I don't mindlessly indicate every time I change course; I do it when another road user needs to know my intentions. That means knowing who is around me and how my actions are likely to affect them. I certainly don't indicate if turning off an empty road in the middle of nowhere. 

...ducks and runs for cover*

To me it should be MSSMSM - mirror, shoulder, signal, mirror, shoulder, manoeuvre.

That is:

 - Check your mirror and over your shoulder to see if the manoeuvre is a ridiculous thing to do

 - If it isn't, signal your intention

 - Then check both mirror and shoulder AGAIN before performing it

In particular indicating intention on a motorway if you can't do it now but you will be able to do it soon is quite sensible - it allows for smoother traffic by having someone move from lane 2 to 3 to accommodate you, say.

The problem with this is that there might be someone you haven't seen who might benefit from it.  So to me you should always indicate unless there is no conceivable benefit from it at all, or if it will actually confuse people and they are actually better getting no indication than a dangerously misleading one.

How do you _know_ the road is empty? No pedestrians who might be wearing dark clothing etc?

I've heard this is the approach advocated by the Advanced Motorists society (or whatever they're called) but I can't say I understand it. It seems to be that if you make it a habit to give useful signals whenever you turn (making sure they're not ambiguous or misleading) then you're more likely to do it when it's pouring with rain, you're late for work, and you've got a kid screaming in the back. i.e. a time when you're distracted, not giving things as much attention as you should and you might just miss spotting that there's someone else you're about to crash into.  

However there's nothing fundamentally wrong with indicating to see if someone will let you out e.g. by pulling from lane 2 to lane 3.  This allows for smoother traffic movement.  However, you should not just "push out" as the OP says.

I disagree. Given that the rule is "mirror, signal, manoevre" it has to be assumed that if someone is signalling in freely moving traffic (a slow queue is different), then they have already looked in their mirror and deemed it safe to manoeuvre, so you should therefore really assume that they have failed to see you and take avoiding action/brake.  These people who indicate apparently to state their intention to manoeuvre when it becomes safe to do so or when someone lets them out are therefore an absolute menace on motorways because you have to at least bear in mind that they may be about to pull out dangerously.

Spot on. A bit of observation and planning, adjust your speed to suit, and you can change lane without affecting anyone (referring to m'way type driving here). No need for somebody to 'let you out'.

A similar guide (again, m'way/DC type of roads) is that brakes should only be needed in emergencies or when approaching slowing or standing traffic.

[...]

Motorways are at or above capacity now. Since drivers like yourself won't extend a bit of courtesy by "letting" someone out, the result is middle lane hogging, by drivers who might otherwise move over but don't want to get stuck behind the truck a mile further down the road.

I used to think this until the guidance was given that 'there shouldn't be someone you haven't seen' i.e. if you are indicating to prevent some potential incident then you should not be doing the manoeuvre in the first place.

There is a subtle difference between 'something you haven't seen but should be capable of seeing'  (my emphasis) and 'nothing visible but you are aware that there may be something there'. Referring to bigbobbyking post at 1706 about pedestrians in dark clothing. For example, I frequently turn into a minor road at a poorly-lit junction, so will indicate and slow right down as there have often been pedestrians approaching or crossing the junction - they weren't visible to me as I approached but I was aware that that the junction is dark so allowed for someone/something to be there.

If there might be someone you haven't seen, how do you judge when you are in a situation where there will be no conceivable benefit to not indicating?

Though it as a long time ago I can well remember my driving instructor reprimanding me for using my indicators when there was no traffic  visible in my proximity.

I’ve been driving for 35+ years and it’s always been the same. 

You get a 6th sense and can usually tell from people’s road positioning well in advance of where they’re about to go. 

Would it not be better for everyone if a driver who wishes to change lane is able to do so by the basic skills mentioned (observation, planning etc) rather than expecting another road user to compensate for their lack of these skills by also have to perform a manoeuvre ('move over' as you put it), then label them discourteous for carrying on driving along in their lane?

Not true.  Certainly came standard in my (now 21 year old) beemer - where else would I hang the air freshener?

And I always signal to other road users - usually with the middle digit of my right hand.

In an ideal world, yes, obviously. However motorways are generally rammed and not every driver is as good as you. If I see someone indicating to pull out, I usually see if I can move across a lane or ease off slightly to let them in. Similarly if I'm in lane 1 approaching a truck I'd expect a driver in lane 2 to move to 3 if possible and I would use my indicator in that situation. 

Basically if I can help another driver get home a bit sooner I'll do it if it is safe to do so.

There's a pretty obvious exception (albeit one that may not fit your description of 'freely moving traffic') that's more important now than ever. On very busy motorways it's easy to get stuck behind vehicles in lane 1 or 2 when there's a stream of traffic in the outside or middle lane completely oblivious to your desire to pass safely and then move in again. Signalling your 'intention', without starting any manoeuvre, allows people in the traffic stream to make room for you.

That is precisely the situation which I was referring to in my later post at 17.27.   You are doing 70 in the right hand lane when a car in the left hand lane doing 50(assuming 2 lane Motorway here) suddenly starts indicating as you catch it up. Do you assume it is simply stating its intention to move out when there is room or hoping someone will let it out at some point (usually the case) or do you play safe and assume it is following mirror/signal/manoeuvre but has failed to see you - in which case you have to brake hard or take your chances and keep going. It is the single behavior which annoys me most on Motorways. In my opinion, if you get stuck like that you should just put up with it until it is safe to do mirror/signal/manoeuvre unless someone politely slows to let you out without you indicating (nore of hat sort of thoughtfulness would be a good thing).

Oooh you want to live around here - (Florida). Here, they seem to indicate after they have turned.

I suspect this is because they have some vague memory that they have to do something with the stalky thing after they have worked the round thing, but one thing at a time....

It's usually easy to tell when people are going to initiate a turn as they swerve in the opposite direction to the turn first. 

Whilst I can see your point, I have to disagree, as I suspect an examiner would. 

Indeed, I’d argue using your lights to ‘seek permission’ of any kind from other road users is merely an unwritten rule, rather than a Highway Code one. 

My personal experience of people doing what you suggest on the motorway is that it has the capacity to cause hesitation and braking in other drivers, thinking they’ve not been seen by the person signalling. 

You assess the situation and, if it won't inconvenience you much to let the car out, you do so. It is simply a request, after all.

The consequences of most people doing otherwise are that the outside lane becomes crowded with people reluctant to pull in because they're worried there won't be a gap later to pull out into when they next need to pass something. That effectively makes the inside lane redundant and ultimately slows everyone down.

My understanding, based on what my kids have told me all of whom have recently passed their tests, is that MSM us no longer taught or recommended.

Seems wrong to me, if someone on a motorway indicates when you are overtaking you have no idea whether they have seen you and are waiting for you to pass, or they just haven't seen you and they're about to pull out.

I think you have missed my point. You do not know whether it is a "request" to pull out or a failure to see you in their mirror and they're pulling out anyway.

Worth pointing out that cyclists and pedestrians are road users, too... Often forgotten, it seems.

Police training says not to use indicators unnecessarily.

On a bike, I use 'mirror', indicate, 'mirror', manoeuvre...

Well what's your alternative then? Let people get stuck in the inside lane forever, until they get fed up and join the rest of the traffic permanently in the outside lane?

That will do wonders for traffic flow.

Edit: actually I think it's usually pretty obvious whether someone is making a request or about to pull out regardless. If in doubt, either slow to let them out anyway, or at least cover the brakes and expect to have to react.

Did they say MSM is actively not recommended? If so, did they say why and what are they taught to do instead?

Thanks.

No, until they can pull out safely. It's not the end of the world to be stuck at 50 for a while.

Yes, it usually is a request, but the scary thing is when the indicating starts when it is too late to pull back if it isn't and you just have to keep going, heart in mouth.

I would agree this is good etiquette and helps to keep very busy roads moving nicely.  You don't *have* to do it, but it's time for that old Honda advert again, "aren't we all just trying to get somewhere"?

It's not, but why not accommodate someone by moving into the empty third or fourth lane so you and they can both continue at your preferred speeds?  I will often do this if I see someone coming up onto another slower vehicle without even waiting for them to signal - it's just "being a nice person" and it's always appreciated.

In my experience it's only lorries that bother me in that regard because you're alongside them for so long.  Passing a car is a very quick thing to do.

It is indeed, though it is such a common one that it probably sits with flashing lights to cede the right of way that ignoring its existence (as 1990s driving instructors used to) is a little churlish, though I guess you can train people not to do it, just as "some people will flash their lights to cede their right of way, do not accept this if it is their right of way as it may not actually be aimed at you" is one way to teach that.

FWIW, talking about flashing lights, the Highway Code says:

Rule 110

Flashing headlights. Only flash your headlights to let other road users know that you are there. Do not flash your headlights to convey any other message or intimidate other road users.

...which I personally think is downright dangerous as absolutely nobody uses headlights for that purpose.   I've long thought that rule should simply say "Do not use flashing headlights as any kind of signal to another vehicle as this could cause dangerous misinterpretation or confusion or dazzle the other driver.  If another vehicle flashes headlights at you, do not infer any specific message from this other than that caution is prudent".

Of course, but not always possible and never possible on a 2 lane motorway.

Yes, lorries are the worst.

Or do you take a defensive but progressive approach and watch it carefully to see if, for example, the front wheels start to turn, while (if you're doing under 70) increasing your speed slightly so you pass more quickly and get the vehicle which may pose you danger behind you, which is a safer place for it?

Or, if lane 3 is empty (I know your example doesn't mention a 3-lane motorway, but most of them are, and driving habits are rather different on regular dual carriageways), the absolute safest thing to do is to move over.  If you are overtaking a vehicle and you feel it poses you a risk (e.g. because it's wandering a bit), move right to create some space if it is safe to do so rather than worrying.

But, and this is a BIG but.

Some people don't indicate to pull back left on motorways, arguing it is pointless.  From lane 2 to lane 1 it probably is, unless you're alongside a slip lane or you've seen someone on the hard shoulder.

But lots of people don't indicate from lane 3 into lane 2.  Take this scenario.  There is a queue of 3 vehicles in lane 1, and one vehicle in lane 2 overtaking it.  You move into lane 3 to overtake the lot.  The queue of 3 vehicles approaches a lorry, and the first one indicates to move to lane 2 *precisely* as you move back to lane 1.  Smash.

If the car moving from lane 3 to lane 2 indicated, it is much more likely that the car in lane 1 also seeking to move to lane 2 would notice, and you'd both abort at the same time back to lanes 1 and 3 avoiding a collision.

The other little golden rule here is not to change lanes directly alongside or onto another vehicle (particularly not into a lorry's blind spot) if it can be avoided.  Obviously it can't always, but on a relatively quiet motorway it usually can.

Actually, talking of aborting, please, fast German car drivers of all kinds, *do not* move into the space in lane 3 I am vacating before I have fully completed moving to lane 2 and switched my indicator off.  I do not like having my safety margin reduced by having my ability to abort removed.

I'm not a fan of that argument because it assumes the driver is infallible.  It's heading into the kind of territory of "I won't use a prusik abseiling because I won't let go".  Drivers make mistakes, so where it is possible to have additional potential safety by signalling, and that signal does not cause confusion, I can't see any sensible argument not to give it anyway.

You should not rely on others to see you by the signal, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't give the signal *just in case* you've erred and not seen others.

It is a rare situation, certainly, to the point that I actually can't think of one.  Possibly lane 2 to lane 1 on a quiet motorway, but I normally do as it doesn't cause any harm and *just could* help.

What's bugging is when you get 'given that stare' from a driver and passengers for setting off onto a roundabout and they begin to turn left right in front of you without indicating before hand.

Life's too short to go into an detailed examination of why they're at fault with them, but it'd be nice if they stopped.

'Lorries are the worst'. I don't get that at all and I drive a lot. I find driving at weekends noticeably worse than in weekdays.

If you take on board the constrains lorries work under, and anticipate, 99% of the time they are totally predicable.

Both of these points are very well made, and ones that every driver should be aware of. The second one is the most annoying thing any other car driver can do on a motorway (imo), and is certainly not limited to Germans or their cars in my experience. It's basically an attempt at ramming at 70+mph!

I didn't mean that lorries are any worse at cars as far as indicating is concerned; I meant that when they don't stick to mirror/signal/manoeuvre, the prospect of  getting involved in a bad way is more worrying due to their length and size.