Scotland's mountain flora being killed by cars

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Removed User 11 Dec 2018

NO2 (nitrogen dioxide) from vehicle exhausts is causing the balance of flora on many of Scotland's hills to alter.

https://theferret.scot/exhaust-nitrogen-mountain-plants/?utm_source=push

Despite being a mechanical engineer I do look forward to the not so distant future when cars will run on electricity, quietly and cleanly.

 

1
In reply to Removed User:

> I do look forward to the not so distant future when cars will run on electricity, quietly and cleanly.

Steam-powered cars as my electrical engineer friend calls them.

 wercat 12 Dec 2018
In reply to Removed User:

The Hebrides by Helium Zeppelin, imagine

 

less picturesquely I get extremely upset at the buses running their big diesels endlessly in the Cairngorm Mountain Ski carpark.   The fumes are enough to cause a tickly cough far up in the hills.

Post edited at 09:16
 IainL 12 Dec 2018
In reply to Removed User:

Where does the NO2 on Bidean come from? Bidean is S of Glencoe. The prevailing wind is SW. The biggest concentration of traffic to the S is Dublin. You can get readings of anything once you start measuring in parts per billion. Petrol also emits NO2 despite catalytic convertors.

The biggest poluting vehicles in cities are buses and taxis. Have a look at Hope Street in Glasgow. Very few cars and nose to tail buses idling at bus-stops or crawling up the hill at 5mph.

1
 machine 12 Dec 2018
In reply to Removed User:

I look forward seeing the electric charging points being installed in all of the rural roadside laybys and carparks and I really look forward to seeing how they would get an electrical supply to them. Ahh just think of the devastation this will cause not too mention the cost. I also look forward to the 4 day drive to get too and from Glencoe and cant wait to watch the fights between people over who gets to charge their car at the limited amount of charging points. Not to mention the effect the cold Scottish winters will have on the life and range of the L.I batteries that are currently installed in electric cars, think 30 percent loss of range at least and of course driving uphill reduces range dramatically and even driving against the wind has a massive effect. Oh and 5pm Monday to Friday will be fun when every one plugs their electric cars in to charge after work crippling the grid. Why do you think they are issuing free smart meters to every one? Just think of all the coal they are going to have to burn to make up the deficit.  

Post edited at 20:47
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Removed User 12 Dec 2018
In reply to machine:

Yes, I've wondered about this and why the obvious solution isn't being sold as an option for the future.

Instead of re charging a battery you change it.

You drive into an electricity station and park over a pit. In the pit a robot removes your empty battery, measures the amount of charge left in it and then replaces it with a fully charged one. The empty battery goes into a rapid charging facility at the back of the station and you're charged for the net amount of electricity you've taken from the station.

I believe someone looked at this in the US a while ago and reckoned a battery could be changed in about 2 minutes.

1
 aln 12 Dec 2018
In reply to Removed User:

Who's making the robots? 

 machine 12 Dec 2018
In reply to Removed User:

Do you know how heavy, how expensive and how dangerous these batteries are? Not to mention the lack of ease of access to them and that's for a good reason. They run on a DC current by God you cant mess on with them. And what if you put your nice new battery in and get an old depleted one back? You wont be happy. Also different manufacturers use different batteries and different amounts which are also different sizes. The shapes of cases and orientations are all different to fit the chassis and around the components of the vehicle. They don't run on double A Duracell's you know. How many different batteries are these stations supposed to hold? 100 for every vehicle brand and model? This is just not a viable option the cost alone would run into the millions per station.

Fast charge still takes hours and will not fully charge the battery. Do this too many times and you will lessen the life of the battery pack and may even need a bottom level reset. Very costly.

To add to my rant Electric vehicles are less environmentally friendly to make than diesel and petrol cars. The batteries are produced by some of the worst pollution emitting countries in the world. What about scrapping your electric vehicle you may ask? Well you cant just take it to the auto salvage for recycling, oh no Lithium Ion is very dangerous and must be disposed of in a very particular way which is also very expensive. Who do you think is going to have to foot that bill? After about 5 years you will see significant loss in performance of your L.I. battery and the performance will deplete year on year so at some point it will have to be changed. Where are we going to dump all of this spent lithium?

Then there is the dreaded thermal runaway. This is something the government and the automotive manufacturers have neglected to mention. Well let me tell you that when you suffer a thermal runaway on one of these bad boys you can kiss good by to your car and also anything in its close proximity. Don't think the fire brigade can put it out either because they cant. You could submerge it into the sea and it will just burn until its burned its self out. Hmm that's food for thought isn't it. 

Then there is the issue of tax. How will the government get back the tax lost on petrol and diesel once the electric vehicle market kicks off. I'm sure they will find some dastardly way of robbing us blind. But my guess is we will say good by to reasonably priced electricity adding a big additional cost to the running of your electric car.

 

 

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pasbury 13 Dec 2018
In reply to machine:

A whole load of whataboutery in there. Funny how these are thousands of Nissan leafs running about, I must have missed the news about how dangerous they are.

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 wintertree 13 Dec 2018
In reply to machine:

> The batteries are produced by some of the worst pollution emitting countries in the world.

However, once mined the lithium in the batteries remains in circulation indefinitely through battery repurposing and then battery recycling.

You can’t really say the same about petrochemicals now can you...

> After about 5 years you will see significant loss in performance of your L.I. battery

Now you’re talking out of you’re arse.  We have a 5 year old EV with the pack testing 100% and there’s no shortage of data to refute your claim.

Post edited at 08:17
2
 aln 13 Dec 2018
In reply to pasbury:

What about the rest of the post?

 doz 13 Dec 2018
In reply to Removed User:

A lot more of Scotland's mountain flora is anihilated by deer and appallingly irresponsible land management

 ianstevens 13 Dec 2018
In reply to machine:

> Do you know how heavy, how expensive and how dangerous these batteries are? Not to mention the lack of ease of access to them and that's for a good reason. They run on a DC current by God you cant mess on with them. And what if you put your nice new battery in and get an old depleted one back? You wont be happy. Also different manufacturers use different batteries and different amounts which are also different sizes. The shapes of cases and orientations are all different to fit the chassis and around the components of the vehicle. They don't run on double A Duracell's you know. How many different batteries are these stations supposed to hold? 100 for every vehicle brand and model? This is just not a viable option the cost alone would run into the millions per station.

In such a battery share system

1) You don’t own the battery. They’re owned centrally by a body, let’s say government rather than a commercial enterprise. You simply borrow the battery and pay for the fuel (electricity).

2) DC current has no factor on whether or not we can “mess with them”

3) We design and legislate for a standard battery size on an international scale. Like, you know, AAs... 3 or 4 different sizes to accommodate different sized cars would work fine.

1
 Jamie Wakeham 13 Dec 2018
In reply to machine:

You're absolutely right.  Just look at the devastation that has been wreaked worldwide by all those exploding Prius batteries over the last 20 years.  We should definitely stick to the status quo of driving around sitting on top of 60L tins of flammable liquid.

And remember how all the cabbies refused to use them one after they found that hammering 60,000 miles a year left the battery completely useless and unable to hold charge in no time at all.

 aln 13 Dec 2018
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> And remember how all the cabbies refused to use them one after they found that hammering 60,000 miles a year left the battery completely useless and unable to hold charge in no time at all.

Only 60,000? I probably do twice that. My company has maybe 20% of their vehicles as full electric but despite the savings in fuel costs they're not that popular with our drivers. Our local area just doesn't have enough charging points and there's logistical problems. For instance if your batteries near the end of your charge and you get a long hire what do you do? With liquid fuel you go top up in 2 minutes, that's not possible with electric cars. Hybrid is maybe the way to go for now.

 subtle 13 Dec 2018
In reply to aln:

> My company has maybe 20% of their vehicles as full electric but despite the savings in fuel costs they're not that popular with our drivers. Our local area just doesn't have enough charging points and there's logistical problems. For instance if your batteries near the end of your charge and you get a long hire what do you do? With liquid fuel you go top up in 2 minutes, that's not possible with electric cars. Hybrid is maybe the way to go for now.

Hmm, I do sympathize - there are nowhere near enough charge points at present, however unless the cars are used 24 hours per day can they not just be charged overnight (or for a few "dead" hours) which would mean the battery would run all day? Or is the range / battery life that bad?

I'm surprised more taxi's aren't turning to electric, but guess the reason they are not is due to battery life/range and lack of charge points as you say.

How we roll out the charge points is a logistical problem though.

 aln 13 Dec 2018
In reply to subtle:

There are no charging points in the town where I work, none in the next nearest two towns either. There's one I know of that's only available to council employees, despite being unused most of the time. If I head across the Forth where my partner lives there's a petrol station near a railway station, with 2 points, and a railway station with 2 points. These are usually occupied all day.

 wintertree 13 Dec 2018
In reply to machine:

> Why do you think they are issuing free smart meters to every one?

Because they’re total morons intent on pissing away £6 Bn of bill payers money on over complicated, under secure crap technology that is being shown to have very little effect on usage...

> and of course driving uphill reduces range dramatically

When we drive up to Alston the range drops to insufficent to get home in our EV.  But then every time we drive home down the dale the funniest thing happens and lots of the lost range comes back.  Unless you’re driving up hill on a treadmill you’re kind of clutching at straws here with the UK’s geography.

Post edited at 16:37
 wintertree 13 Dec 2018
In reply to aln:

> Only 60,000? I probably do twice that.

328 miles every single day of the year?  Still just within the range of the more expensive EVs after an overnight charge, but you’re about as far from the current EV target market as it’s possible to imagine.

Post edited at 16:48
 aln 13 Dec 2018
In reply to wintertree:

Not every day... OK I exaggerated a bit, but certainly around 90 to 100k. And a full charge might do that, but where do I charge?

 Jamie Wakeham 13 Dec 2018
In reply to aln:

> > And remember how all the cabbies refused to use them one after they found that hammering 60,000 miles a year left the battery completely useless and unable to hold charge in no time at all.

> Only 60,000? I probably do twice that... Hybrid is maybe the way to go for now.

My point was that lots of cab drivers use Prius (which are hybrids, not full EVs), and, despite Machine's hysterical claims, they aren't blowing up all over the place, and nor are the batteries failing after a couple of years.  Cabbies won't buy cars that don't last, and the fact that they are still buying hybrids rather proves that the batteries do have plenty of longevity.

 aln 13 Dec 2018
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

I don't disagree with any of that.

pasbury 13 Dec 2018
In reply to aln:

> What about the rest of the post?

It sounds like someone moaning about steam locomotives in 1810.

 Tringa 13 Dec 2018
In reply to aln:

> Not every day... OK I exaggerated a bit, but certainly around 90 to 100k. And a full charge might do that, but where do I charge?


Take your point about charging points - there are no where near enough and having to wait way longer than it takes to refuel a petrol car is a big stumbling block.

BTW Do you really drive 90,000 to 100,000 miles a year? 90,000 is 246 mile per day, or close to driving from London to Darlington every day of the year.

 

Dave

 Max factor 13 Dec 2018
In reply to pasbury:

> A whole load of whataboutery in there. Funny how these are thousands of Nissan leafs running about, I must have missed the news about how dangerous they are.

Exactly. If anyone thought for 5 minutes they'd realise their objections are just implementation problems to be overcome. Electric cars won't be perfect for everyone but will be a credible solution for a lot of drivers.

 aln 13 Dec 2018
In reply to pasbury:

pasbury 13 Dec 2018
In reply to Max factor:

All classic engineering optimisation exercises that have been going on in fossil fuelled cars for over 100 years. Not even very hard ones. A clever government would have invested in this on behalf of it’s people for the complimentary benefits of commercial advantage and sustainability. But they didn’t, the cynic in me despairs at the possible reasons why they didn’t. And note that it can’t be about lack of money as they are contemplating spending 31 BILLION on replacing Trident and it’s carrier submarines.

 

 machine 14 Dec 2018
In reply to ianstevens:

1) This is a good idea but the batteries cost more than build cost of the rest of the entire vehicle. Buying these battery Pods would cost the government Billions. Where are they going to store them?

2) You could mess with them if you want but I wouldn't recommend it. DC is way more dangerous than AC. That's why we don't use it in a domestic environment and that's why the layman shouldn't fool around with them. DC does not pulse like AC and your not talking about 240 volts either, your looking at between 40 to 120kws of DC. Get a jolt from this and it will severely ruin your life

3)Automotive Lithium Ion batteries are all different depending on who manufactures them and what vehicle they are going on. They are not currently standardised. Also on an electric vehicle you don't have a battery. You have a set of intelligent lithium ion batteries in sealed pods of which the size, shape, configuration and amount are governed by the size shape weight and power needed for each individual vehicle. You have a master and slave pod. Each battery has its own battery management system that talks to the other batteries in the pod. This is over seen by a Master BMS which is then controlled by a UBMS. This is programmed to talk to the ECU in the vehicle. Even if the battery pods were the same they would have to be programmed to work with the ECU and UBMS of the specific vehicle if they are not originally from the exact make and model of the vehicle doing the battery exchange. Please don't confuse these with domestic batteries, dumb lead acid or gel batteries. They are completely different.

In reply to Plasbury,

I have witnessed these thermal events first hand and its pretty scary when you see it. The only person I really trust worked in a quite high level access all areas position for the then world leader in the development and manufacture of commercial E.V. The government isn't going to advertise the shortfalls of something it has invested so much money into. 

Electric vehicles can work effectively in a city environment like London and maybe Birmingham, however they are currently just not practical in the rural environment, cold environments, humid environments steep hilly environments and for people who want to drive long distances. 

The main idea of the EV is to give a bigger choice and to try and spread the load as it were but I don't think its the future. 

4
 wintertree 14 Dec 2018
In reply to machine:

You seem a bit obsessed over DC.  It’s no different to any other safety hazard like, say, 70 kg of highly flammable fuel with explosive vapours.  It can be designed to be safe to a given requirement.  If you have specific concerns over EV safety you could air them.

> our not talking about 240 volts either, your looking at between 40 to 120kws of DC

Volts are not the same as Watts.

> Electric vehicles can work effectively in a city environment like London and maybe Birmingham, however they are currently just not practical in the rural environment, cold environments, humid environments steep hilly environments and for people who want to drive long distances. 

Then I must be mad be because the main car in our household is an EV; a low range one at that.  We live in a rural northern environment that’s hilly and still has proper winters.  The only thing I agree with you on is driving long distances.

1
 Myr 14 Dec 2018
In reply to machine:

> they are currently just not practical in the rural environment, cold environments, humid environments steep hilly environments and for people who want to drive long distances

Imagine if the fleet of electric cars in Norway was, per-capita, the largest in the world.

 charliesdad 14 Dec 2018
In reply to wintertree:

Completely agree about Smart Meters, and sadly the total cost is likely to be higher than £6bn - think more like £20bn. And all the real benefits accrue to energy suppliers - exactly as they intended.

 wintertree 14 Dec 2018
In reply to Myr:

> Imagine if the fleet of electric cars in Norway was, per-capita, the largest in the world.

I heard they were using AC batteries.  They’re way safer than DC ones because they pulse.  

 machine 15 Dec 2018
In reply to wintertree:

DC (direct current) holds you in if getting electrocuted ie you cant move or escape out of it unless it is shut off or some saves you. I'm not sure you can even get a battery that runs on AC (alternating Current). How ever if getting electrocuted by AC it is possible to escape due to the fact that it pulses back and forth allowing you to be able to break away. 

Oslo has an average winter temp of around minus 4. Im talking about proper cold environments. The vehicles we built automatically shut down at minus 16 to protect the battery system from damage.  We sold a few to Russian company who were not impressed when there vehicles would start because it was too cold. Im not sure of the operating temps of other manufacturers but im guessing they will be similar.

 Jamie Wakeham 15 Dec 2018
In reply to machine:

>I'm not sure you can even get a battery that runs on AC (alternating Current).

I think your sarcasm detector might have automatically shut down too.

 wintertree 15 Dec 2018
In reply to machine:

> DC (direct current) holds you in if getting electrocuted

It depends on the form of the contact.  Most opposing muscle pairs have the stronger muscule acting to throw the body part away from the live contact - AC or DC.

Except the finger grip muscles - these are overwhelmingly stronger than the release muscles so one wouldn’t want to grab a live HVDC conductor.  This is where AC makes a difference.   Grabbing live conductors is a real worry for household mains, not so much for EVs in either normal or fault conditions, even ignoring how an EV pack is not earth bonded.


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