Brexit, logic, Irish reunification

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 Philip 10 Dec 2018

If Brexit is more about will of the people than the best for our country and future, then wouldn't that same twisted logic lead to allowing NI to secede from the UK. Thus solving the border issue, respecting the NI majority view on EU and reunification.

NI also a net cost to UK treasury so the difference can go into Boris Johnson's magic pot to fund NHS.

Surely to argue against NI leaving would be to realise that Brexit makes no sense.

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 Timmd 10 Dec 2018
In reply to Philip:

Ireland/NI is an intractable problem when it comes to Brexit, which Cameron could have predicted. 

 Shani 10 Dec 2018
In reply to Philip:

You assume the Republic of Ireland would want unification. Given the economic and social cost, it'd be tight in a referendum, and politically, the costs might be too high.....unless the UK subsidised the transition and offered residency to those Northern Irish that want it.

Post edited at 18:18
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 Lord_ash2000 10 Dec 2018
In reply to Philip:

Or Ireland could also leave the EU, would be free to trade with the UK tariff free (assuming we agreed) and there would be no boarder issues. 

Considering the percentage of Ireland's trade is with the UK it's not the worst idea I'm the world. 

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Removed User 10 Dec 2018
In reply to Philip:

You question is based on the false premise that the people of Northern Ireland want to be unified with the Republic of Ireland. That isn't the case. There was a 25 year long civil war about it that was brought to an end by a thing called The Good Friday Agreement.

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OP Philip 10 Dec 2018
In reply to Removed User:

> You question is based on the false premise that the people of Northern Ireland want to be unified with the Republic of Ireland. That isn't the case. There was a 25 year long civil war about it that was brought to an end by a thing called The Good Friday Agreement.

No, it's based on the fact that apparently 68% of NI want it. Whether this is a reaction to Brexit, but it seems pretty high.

If you think the NI troubles have only lasted 25 years then I'm afraid it's you that needs the history lesson.

But, my point was less about the correctness of reunification, and more about the only basis for Brexit being the will of the people, and not economic, geopolitical or any other argument.

Again with Gibraltar - we see the argument of local vote used to overrule any other argument.

Edit:

The article citing 68% has no source, but Wikipedia does. The margin is nowhere near as clear, but a Brexit with a hard border pushes the vote in favour of reunification, it's slim but if we're screwing the future on 52% result anyway....

Post edited at 19:26
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 John2 10 Dec 2018
In reply to Philip:

'If Brexit is more about will of the people than the best for our country and future, then wouldn't that same twisted logic'

You are a logician? Please explain why that logic is twisted.

I recently read that although the majority of the Northern Irish population are currently Protestant, a Catholic majority may appear as early as 2021 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43823506 . I know a few Northern Irish people, some Catholic, some Protestant. They would all be happy to live in a united Ireland. Perhaps they are not bigots.

 pec 10 Dec 2018
In reply to Philip:

> If Brexit is more about will of the people than the best for our country and future, then wouldn't that same twisted logic lead to allowing NI to secede from the UK.

 

Whilst there would be several possible benefits from Irish reunification (depending on your point of view of course) your premise is flawed. The will of the people, at least those in N.Ireland, is to remain British and it would be unprecedented to go around kicking out parts of the country the rest of us might regard as more bother than they are worth even if it did make life easier.

 

Of course, with changing demographics its quite possible that the N. Irish may wish to reunify with the Republic in the not too distant future which would of course make Brexit a lot easier next time around if we don't get it done now

 

 

Removed User 10 Dec 2018
In reply to Philip:

Funny but I put 68% Northern Ireland into Bing and got results of 68% of NI teenagers feel stressed and 68% were in favour of gay marriage. Nothing on reunification.

You haven't made a mistake have you?

Regarding NI's troubles. I don't need any history lessons thanks very much.

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 hokkyokusei 10 Dec 2018
In reply to Removed User:

There was a recent poll by a national newspaper (sorry, I can't remember which one) that said about 60% of people in NI would prefer a close relationship with the EU post brexit, even if that meant a customs border with the rest of the UK. 

That's not the same as a majority being in favour of union with the Republic though.

 Shani 10 Dec 2018
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> Or Ireland could also leave the EU, would be free to trade with the UK tariff free (assuming we agreed) and there would be no boarder issues. 

> Considering the percentage of Ireland's trade is with the UK it's not the worst idea I'm the world. 

It's SO much more than economics with Anglo-Irish relations. For the first time in 800 years they have the political and economic upper hand. Given the perpetuation of rough-handling Ireland by Rees-Mogg, Johnson et al, don't hold your breath if you think Ireland leaving the EU is remotely possible!

 

 

Post edited at 20:14
Removed User 10 Dec 2018
In reply to hokkyokusei:

Thanks, I thought it might be something like that.

Didn't NI vote Remain? If so a 60% figure is hardly surprising. No one likes borders anyway.

OP Philip 10 Dec 2018
In reply to Removed User:

I agree on the absence of 68% majority, as I said, but searching for the original source I did find the Wikipedia article with sources for a slight majority. 

Without a majority the point is moot, I agree.

 RX-78 10 Dec 2018
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

As an Irish person living in the UK I am not too surprised by someone thinking this is a possibility given the level of ignorance I have experienced about Ireland from some UK citizens.

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Removed User 10 Dec 2018
In reply to RX-78:

I think he was being provocative.

 hokkyokusei 10 Dec 2018
In reply to Removed User:

> Didn't NI vote Remain? If so a 60% figure is hardly surprising. No one likes borders anyway.

It's the bit about being closer to the EU and hence the Republic, and being distanced from the rest of the UK that's surprising. The DUP ( the only NI representation in Westminster) would have you believe that's not the case.

 RX-78 10 Dec 2018
In reply to Removed User:

Yea, you're probably right, it was a busy day at work today.

In reply to Philip:

Something I always wonder about Northern Ireland, and indeed independence movements in general, is this. It's always viewed in terms of people voting for their smaller bit to leave a country. But what if it were the other way round? What if a majority of the UK thought they didn't want Northern Ireland, and voted to push it out into the world? What stops that occurring - is it just the absence of political will, or is there some sterner obstacle? It's not particularly a question about Northern Ireland or the UK - does this ever happen, generally speaking, and if not, why not?

 

jcm

 jkarran 11 Dec 2018
In reply to Philip:

> If Brexit is more about will of the people than the best for our country and future, then wouldn't that same twisted logic lead to allowing NI to secede from the UK.

NI is allowed to secede if it wants to. Brexit may well hasten the choice.

jk

 oldie 11 Dec 2018
In reply to jkarran:

IF some of the stats quoted are true then Northern Ireland is even more likely to secede than Scotland (which I would think is highly likely in the foreseeable future following any Brexit).

 Martin Hore 11 Dec 2018
In reply to hokkyokusei:

> It's the bit about being closer to the EU and hence the Republic, and being distanced from the rest of the UK that's surprising. The DUP ( the only NI representation in Westminster) would have you believe that's not the case.

Wrong (but almost right) I think. The SDLP, UUP and Alliance parties have lost the Westminster seats they previously held but Lady Sylvia Hermon has retained her seat as an independent. She has made the point recently in parliament that the DUP do not represent all the people of Northern Island. I think she is a Remainer who supports the PM's deal. Sinn Fein of course hold 7 seats at Westminster that they do not take up.

Martin

 hokkyokusei 11 Dec 2018
In reply to Martin Hore:

> Wrong (but almost right) I think. The SDLP, UUP and Alliance parties have lost the Westminster seats they previously held but Lady Sylvia Hermon has retained her seat as an independent. She has made the point recently in parliament that the DUP do not represent all the people of Northern Island. I think she is a Remainer who supports the PM's deal. Sinn Fein of course hold 7 seats at Westminster that they do not take up.

You are correct, I'd forgotten about that independent seat.

In reply to Philip:

Brexit logic, Irish reunification?

Is that the name of Morrissey's latest album...?

 elsewhere 11 Dec 2018

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