UKH

Being keen on gaining more winter experience, as the season progresses I start to fret about making the most of it. As I live quite far from the Lakes and Wales, about 5 hrs drive from each, and being aware of the fleeting nature of winter conditions in those areas, I am prepared to make a "last minute" dash for it whenever the time is right, in order to catch the conditions before they vanish. This will most probably result in being unable to find a partner and therefore having to solo. I enjoy soloing  (I did some roped solo multipitch on low grades rock) and did some grade I/II routes last winter. I would like now to try some routes that on guide books are graded II/III but I have never climbed at that grade so, going solo does concern me a little bit. I have read all the info I could find, including on UKC forums and it seems that most winter soloist bring a rope and a few pieces of gear, just in case there is a need to retreat. I was wondering if, since I will be carrying rope and some gear anyway, where I found the terrain a bit intimidating (i.e, steeper ice steps) I could use the roped solo technique to overcome those sections. Obvioulsy that will require a lot of work as the pitch will need to be climbed three times but that doesn't bother me too much. I was wondering why I can't find any mention of this anywhere: apart from the obvious time consuming, is there any other reason why this is not done? 

Thanks to All in advance. 

Long walk ins, short days and not always an abundance of good gear I'd suggest normally make this an unattractive option. With good research in to potential belays on your target routes it wouldn't be impossible though. 

If you've the flexibility to get out midweek you're always likely to find a partner, mind you. 

You don't "have to" solo!!! 

 >the pitch will need to be climbed three times <

Surely twice? Climb, ab and remove gear, reclimb protected by/using rope.

Winter soloists that are still alive tend to be very experienced and solo well below their leading grade.

I have never taken a rope and gear with me soloing but then I've never soloed above III. If I was thinking about taking a rope to self belay I would be looking for another route that was within my capability. If things get hard on a solo then your safety net is your ability to down climb, if you're climbing ground that you can't confidently down climb then you are dancing with death and at some point you may well find a much faster way down than down climbing.

Just my two penneth worth but I find that the only time I feel confident soloing is when I'm out every weekend and have got into the zone regarding conditions and what state the routes are in (I am generally a bit of a pussy though). It's been a long time since that was true for me because like you it's a bit of a trek and my time off work has been limited recently. The routes will still be there in the future, if I can't find a partner then I tend to steer my focus towards long walks or easy ground and treat it as a challenge to be fast, fit and efficient. There is always the option to scout out new locations you've not been before as well. There is just too much to do in the winter and too many places to go that don't involve playing rock, paper scissors with the grim reaper.

I take it you are talking about tackling remote and unpopular climbs, if you're rope soloing popular routes in busy periods then you will most likely be a hazard to yourself and other people on the route or at the very least piss everyone off.

Sounds like a pretty bad strategy. Low grade Winter routes are often lacking in much useful protection so you'd probably be free soloing most of the time despite carrying gear.

Conditions are half the battle in Winter and until you've built up experience of how to deal with what you might encounter in worst case scenarios it's probably too risky from my point of view. 

Find partners! In this day and age it's far easier than it used to be.

The usual consensus with snow and ice routes is just don't fall off. I think people's concern here is that rope soloing when the gear is likely to be poor anyway may give a false sense of security when really you may be better just soloing at a level which is comfortable for you. (This is provided conditions are good. This is even more important when soloing than leading.)

Just to echo this point, rope soloing on that terrain would be a complete waste of time and energy and probably no safer than unroped climbing when one takes into account all the risk factors (avalanche, benightment etc) rather than just the risk from a fall.

Not so long ago you said "I will be climbing with a partner of similar experience. I have upgraded to 2 DMM fly axes and front point crampons. I have a full trad rack but no protection for ice."

Maybe you should find that partner...

The main problem with your idea is that it can mislead you into taking short cuts.  It's easy to underestimate the difficulty ahead and the landing below.  We've all done it.

One of my first winter climbing experiences was when I saw someone try some ice bouldering.  He was just trying the first moves at the start of a route at the Devils Kitchen.   When he fell off he travelled about 400 yards down an icy ramp .  Broke his leg.  Had to be carried out.  The fall would still have happened with a rope but it wouldn't have been nearly as bad.   What are the chances that you find a simple looking step and think  it's not worth roping up for?

For another example, the golden rule of winter mountaineering in the easy grades is that many folk don't think to put crampons on until they're well above the point at which it would have been a good idea.   

Easy. Advertise for a partner on here the week running up to your outing. If you find a buddy, go hit the IIIs and the odd IV when the team is strong enough. If no luck with a partner, leave the rope and gear behind and move more easily solo sticking to steady terrain. I don’t think routes at I/II will trouble a sensible if only moderately experienced climber and they reward good progress. But be sure to build up your experience steadily and don’t rush up the grades. Taking a belay for each 50m plod up a modest-angled, neve-filled gully is a waste of your day. But breaking your leg will end your season 

When soloing, remember ridges don’t tend to collapse on you, route-finding is often more straightforward and there are some great outings in the lower grades.

What Ben Sharp says and nothing else!!

I can understand where your coming from though as like you I was in a similar position, had the time and location but no partners, so just started going out on my own. Took 30m walkers rope and a few nuts and slings to use in case of retreat, which was quite a few times. After 2 seasons I came to the conclusion it was only a matter of time before I killed myself, Now with more experience, looking back I can't understand how I survived that period! I do now occasionally go soloing on grade I/II gulleys, away from anyone else (I'm a grade IV/V climber) but its more for keeping the calf muscles in trim or when I just fancy an easy day out. I would strongly advise that when you/the collective have decided conditions are in, re-post in the partners section, I'm sure someone will come along!

Sure, it is two, I counted the abseil in! anyway, I've got my answer, plenty of reasons why is not a good idea., Thanks

Thanks a lot, I see what you mean. I will stick to what I feel confident with if my partner can't make it (he has quite a planned busy life so, generally can't free himself at the last minute.) or try to get someone to join in at the last minute.

a lot of the reasons you and others mentioned in this post explain why it is not a good idea to rope solo. That is the answer to my question, much appreciated!

Thanks also to Michael,  Dave, Leon1, and anyone that kindly shares experience and advise

Yes, I guess the frustration of having missed the summer season has make me a bit too keen and not wanting to miss any opportunity has clouded my judgement. Good to have a chat and hear what the opinion of more experienced people is. 

 I will switch my focus on getting more "days out" when alone rather than trying to push the grades. besides, every day in the mountains has something to teach and I can do with the experience anyway.

I’ll be heading up to Scotland, I am traveling by myself and trying to arrange meet ups nearer the time, if I’m solo then I’m going to stick to routes in Garry’s book

Even on easier routes there are the usual caveats about weather snow conditions avalanche risk and personal capabilities and experience

If push comes to shove I’d rather haves nice coffee and chill for the day than stick my neck out in marginal conditions solo, buddy up(with someone suitably experienced) if you want to push things

Scotland's Winter Mountains with one axe https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1527217221/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_zX98BbYZRGB5D

Thanks for the link! I hope that this winter will grant us some climbing without having to go as far as Scotland!

Have you really been winter climbing if you haven't winter climbed in Scotland?  

Chances are you'll be waiting longer for good winter conditions in the Lakes / Wales than you will be waiting for a climbing partner. 

I have met folk who drive up from Cornwall for a weekend of Scottish winter climbing! 

I have been to the Cairngorms twice and possibly will go up to Scotland again in March. i just hope for a proper winter so it won't be necessary to drive tht far. Driving all the way up there and back in a weekend is a bit taxing on my system as my normal weekly routine includes 3 hrs commuting daily and 13hrs long days, so i don't have the stamina for it anymore. I would rather take a week off before heading that way. 

That's fair enough, we all have our fingers and toes tightly crossed for a good winter season.

My point was that Scotland offers the most reliable of the already unpredictable winter conditions we get here in the UK. 

Stay flexible and open minded and you should have a good season. 

I think you can advance your hillcraft by staying in I/II territory but heading for the ridges, whether they be short I/II routes up cliffs or long high level mountain ridges. The tech difficult doesn't increase but the commitment and exposure provides you with a way of advancing yours general confidence in the winter environment without tangling yourself in lots of rope and struggling with steeper terrain. That will take your head to a place where you are in a better position to say second a IV with someone at a later date and progress from there.

indeed!

Cool, the obvious ridges of Swirral and striding on Helvellyn  are both on my list, and being relatively high there might be some chances of winter conditions at some point. I have only just got the Cicerone "lake district winter climbs" guide so I will have a look at some other possibilities, if conditions are wide spread i usually prefer less frequented places.  I do have the same guide for Ben and Glencoe, in case i make it to scotland.Do you have any preferred/suggested routes? Thanks

In addition to the link above, Dan Baileys book scottish mountain ridges (i think it's called that) and this - http://scottishwinterroutes.com/ are good resources for the kind of thing you're looking for.

It may be better to look for routes in the II/III range that are easy to escape. Maybe something like Tower Slabs in Cwm Cneifion where, if it gets too technical, you can fairly easily escape by traversing to the side onto easier ground?

Sound advice for someone confident at the grade. But though I hesitate to use the word "should", if there's one good general rule it is that really one should not be pushing the grade on the solo!

Sron na Lairig (II) in Glencoe is among the best solos for a competent lower middle grade climber (although groups tend to pitch it). Very narrow in one spot.

Sron na Lairig (Winter) (II)

In the Lakes, several steady solos at an easy I/II on Brown Cove Crags, accessed from Thirlmere. Head to the far side for the parallel gullies and intervening ridge for the chance of solitude. You can cycle two or three routes if keen but you will have company at the near end where a couple of rambling routes have short sections of III. Here's the rib:

Parallel Gullys Rib (II)

Never heard of anyone rope soloing in winter in the UK. People do in in the Alps but that's a whole different ball game, which often involves elements of aid climbing. For rope soloing you need the belays to be solid and multidirectional. I guess you'll know that from your rock climbing experience. Simply put, the belays in winter can be less than ideal (especially half way up a pitch if you're looking to get over short steep sections). Plus gear will generally be a lot less reliable than on summer rock and often less frequent, so if you fall, you will probably go a long way. All of this means that rope soloing is a pretty bad idea.

Generally, be very careful about pushing your grade in winter when leading until you have enough experience to judge things for yourself. Better to team up with a more experienced partner or go on a course and do some seconding to build up your experience at (relatively) higher grades, then try leading with a partner and place lots of gear.

Pushing the grade in winter is risky enough. Doing so while rope soloing is asking for trouble.

You can rope solo in winter. However I have a feeling it would utterly ruin both experiences. Personally I suggest winter soloing should be fast moving and easy, I always take a small rack and rope for emergency. As stated previously it's not for pushing your grade or for sub optimal conditions, avalanches while alone don't bear thinking about. Remember don't take the decision likely. If something occurrs noone is coming for you within a time frame that is reasonable and you probably don't have signal.

I'd suggest that you look for partners and go with people. Grade III is quite an advance from II and even protected by a rope and good gear you can still take monster falls. Last year I fell on a III when I went off route, went 8m and luckily had the reactions to push myself away from dropping vertically through a narrowing in the chimney. Could easily have ended in serious injury. 

Don't allow hueristic traps like the ones you mentioned, scarcity, influence your decisions. Know what they are, how they apply to climbing and how to spot them particularly if you wish to solo in winter.

I only solo if it's low grade enough for me not to need a rope and then only as mental training for anticipated situations on bigger mountains where soloing is necessary to meet time constraints.

Thanks for your and the other guys imput. great stuff and very helpful. 

Yes, I definetly got that. I am glad I have asked the question. Thanks!

TKS!!

Now that's what I call hardcore. 

Unfortunately yes! I live in north essex but I work in London. It means that, even if I do not start work till 7.30 a.m, I need to live from home at 5.30 a.m at the latest. I usually arrive just before 7 o'clock but if I leave it even 10 mins later I risk to not make it in time. The nightmare is even worse in the evening as I work until 5 p.m (45 hrs contract). At that time I get all the rush hour traffic and I am never home before 6.45 or 7.00 p.m, if there are no road work, accidents, or other routes that have been closed near by! Very long days. The alternative will be to find work locally and take a 10 to 12 thousand pounds paycut per year. Can't afford that at the moment but as soon as my daughter finishes High scool I will certainly consider it. Beleive me, I am sick of it. Climbing outdoors as much as possible is part of keeping me sane! When I'm climbing I truly leave in the moment, forget all the stress and feel so refreshed afterward!  

I've climbed quite a lot of low grade winter routes in less than ideal conditions. I'd highly suggest you wait until mid winter after a period of consolidation. If you go out soloing in early season conditions up some gully you are going to get yourself killed. As lots of folk have said  a better idea is to find some friends.

Early season and someone who has traveled a long distance can create a bad combo. No one wants a 900 mile round trip to sit in the cafe, creating a more risk taking mindset.

have a back up there plan if traveling such as Low level stuff, a ridge or shorter walks even where the local climbing wall is or MTB, or be prepared to cancel. Weather forecasts and good old local knowledge from the likes of UKC can tell you If a trip is worth taking.

Good point. So far I have only climbed on perfect or near perfect nevee', I would not be comfortable with dubious snow/ ice so I won't push my lack but I guess that taking a walk up to the crags to verify conditions, with a back up objective in mind, it won't hurt. Learning how to judge conditions should involve some first hand experience.