UKH

I'd be grateful to hear any experiences you might have of climbing with the Scouts.  Our unit seems to be planning to purchase a load of gear and there is an opportunity for me to get involved.  

Pros: 
Get to have some training (?)
Give some kids a taste of climbing, perhaps spark, or feed, a fire that will burn in them for the rest or their lives

Cons:.
Kids, and ropes, and cliffs - makes me shudder to think how wrong it could go.
Responsibility - when I climb I do so knowing I take responsibility for myself and my partner, the idea of having responsibility for other peoples kids is pretty scary.
General H&S faffery - filling out forms when a kid maybe burns their hand on a match is one thing, and I can do it and smile knowing that it is just the system.  Having to implement the same level of bureacracy for something which is actually very dangerous...

Any thoughts or experiences from those who have been there and done it welcome.
 

I think the above is an answer to your own question! 

Personally I ran top rope sessions for a number of scouting and cadet organisations and provided you put control measures in place then its as per any sport, risk is part of it but can be minimised.

Why not just try a top rope session down at your local wall? There is a new Mountain Training qualification called Indoor Climbing Assistant starting up in the new year, look at doing that first? Get some experience of working with groups and the fitting and checking of harnesses and give you some confidence. Even just use the autos to start with and bar needing a big stick to knock them off when they get stuck (joke) they're pretty straight forward.

I got my first experience of climbing in the scouts and it certainly planted the seed for me. If you have a look at Yr Hafod they run a number of courses with experienced and qualified people.

You never know you may unlock the next Shauna or Adam Ondra.....or some of them may just really enjoy it! The latter being the most important!

More years than I want to think about I was a cub and then a scout. Except for a brief opportunity at school and then scouts I would never have gone to the mountains, climbed or be the person I am now in terms of outdoor interests. You have the opportunity to be life-changing.

Good luck if you decide to go forward. It is many years since I have done any courses, but the quality of training at the national centres such as Plas y Brenin and Glenmore Lodge was obvious to me and watching such experienced teachers teaches you to teach!

Another con might be having to keep records of every bit of gear your Scouts own, together with checking history.....and will you end up doing all the checking??

What if someone well-meaning but not informed puts a lot of paintbrushes steeping in thinners in the same cupboard as all your gear?

What if the person who agreed to be the gearimeister moves on?

It may be less fuss just to get a couple of sessions at local wall; or depending where you are, there may be a nearby Clip n Climb (they vary in quality, but my experience is that some can be a very "adventurous" experience for your group, requiring no belay knowledge etc. My local one does a bit of a deal for groups; it may be that there's a discount for scouts...especially if you can go at a less popular time (later bedtime than young kids, so last hour of evening?). In my experience, youth groups also LOVE their leaders trying the activity with them, and since you won't be needed to belay at CNC, you can.

Only posting a "con" to help your decision should you go for getting gear!

Other option: if some of you are/were CWA or above qualified, and insured, would THAT get you cheaper wall entry than having own gear? Chat to wall, do the maths, as your own instructors but the wall's gear may work out not much different to your own gear. Local wall may even allow half and half (eg one of their instructors plus one of your CWA's, reduced group cost - this was an option for me, but MANY years ago and paperwork may be much tighter now!).

Too many options! Good luck!

I think you've answered your own question - if you're not happy to take responsibility for other people's kids then don't do it.  You shouldn't feel pressured into it just because someone in your unit has decided it should get involved in climbing.

I've done loads of work with youth groups including the scouts. It's not nearly as terrifying or as much hassle as you fear. However, it's definitely a different skill to just climbing with partners. Gaining some experience assisting someone who has been doing it for a while is a really good idea. Try it before you commit either way, so you know for sure. 

You're not by any completely random chance based in or around Milton Keynes are you?  If you are, we're always after new instructors for our wall at the Quarries, and am more than happy to have people shadowing as long as they're already within Scouting or willing to join (for insurance reasons).

But anyway...as others have said it's a very different style of things to you going climbing with your mates - in particular in terms of the kinds of thing you are likely to be doing in terms of risk.

At our artificial Scout wall, my view is that safety needs to be managed on the basis that if there is ever a significant accident we need to be shut down, as it should genuinely never happen, and if it does the only person who can be seen as responsible is the instructor[1].  Outdoors you can never be *quite* as sure, but if you are skilled at placing gear and take the line that anything other than a 10/10 placement isn't good enough, things will be pretty safe, probably safer than driving to the crag.  And you'd typically set up bottom ropes and lower off, so nobody is going to be wandering around at the top of a crag to fall off, which puts the majority of the risk on a similar level to going on a low level day hike.

There is scope to teach lead climbing in Scouting which does of course come with significant risks, but that's not entry level stuff.

FWIW, Scouting operates a "Permit Scheme" which involves assessing you on your skills and issuing a Permit tailored to what you can do (100% within your comfort zone), rather than the fixed levels MTA operate.  So if you're already in Scouting, give your County Climbing Advisor a shout as a start.

[1] Scout insurance provides legal liability cover, but that's not what I so much mean - I mean more that something can't just be put down to inattentiveness or bad belaying - the instructor needs to ensure that if any of those things do go on (and with a wall full of 10-year-olds you can be sure they will) that there is a proper safety backup to ensure they can't cause problems.  I normally tail the rope in the manner they do at commercial walls.  And similarly, if a young person gets their knot wrong, however experienced they may claim they might be, it's *my* fault.

I would have a chat with the county adviser before buying gear.  There is paperwork associated and it is worth considering if it may be better to hire if the gear doesn’t get a lot of use.  There may be gear already available from county or from a campsite. 

Thanks for replies all!

Can anyone point me to more info about how the climbing permit system works in Scouts?  I am sure with a bit of digging I could find more but I am running around like a mad thing at the moment!

Thanks Steve, yes this is the biggest pro - so many people get their first experience of this kind of activity through Scouts and it goes on to shape the person they become.

Thanks Howard.  I am happy to take responsibility for other peoples' kids and do so every week in my normal activities as a Scout leader, it's just that this is a whole new level of responsibility!

Really good point about the gear inventory.  I'll raise this with the keen bean who is driving this.

No I'm not near MK Neil, and absolutely agree with you about the idea that any accident means there has been a cock up in the session being run unless it has been caused by objective hazard.

https://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/16/climbing?moduleID=24&...

I have done a lot in the past with Scout and Guide groups, ranging from top-roping sessions at Scout-owned/public climbing walls and also outdoors, including single and multi pitch leading.

Get in touch with your County climbing assessor - if you don't have one, try the next County - and talk through with them. You will need to have logged climbing experience and they will assess you and give you a permit to lead certain activities within certain boundaries, e.g. top-roping sessions at a wall with up to 6 Scouts, but could allow more. If you already have any of the MLTB awards, that will help - otherwise, see if your Group/County will fund part/all of the SPA. You will generally need that to take groups to public climbing walls, as they don't accept the Scout permits - also some outdoor crags, such as Dancing Ledge (National Trust owned) won't allow you to instruct groups there without it.

Everything you need about buying looking after gear is/was on the Scouts website resources pages, but a simple spreadsheet of what you've got, when it was purchased and dates of use will be fine - I tended to just note the dates of activities and assume all gear was used on that day rather than worrying which 6 harnesses out of 8 were actually used.

There are minimum specifications on which diameter of ropes to use but, in pactice, I found them unworkable with smaller Scouts/Cubs that don't weight very much and weight/stiffness of ropes can be a problem, especially abseiling, so use a bit of sensible licence.

By all means get involved with it, but you'll naturally be more cautious than if it was just yourself and partner climbing, so triple check that knot/put another anchor in, etc.

If you end up doing outdoors work, you will almost certainly end up using your own gear to some extent to place anchors, as the Scouts won't have much at all in the way of trad hardwear.

LastBoySCOUT - ex-District climbing advisor for my area.

I did mine 20 years ago. The biggest thing was that how you climb on your own with a partner is different to how you would approach it with kids. 

Things like safety ropes when abseiling. Specific knots. Planning escape systems. How to belay properly. Picking suitable climbing locations to suit ability and age of group.

In particular managing groups of kids at the base of the cliff. I think I seem to remember someone coming to watch me ‘working’ with my scouts.

I suspect it is still the case that you will have to go on a scout training course and assessment. If you have SPA then maybe you’ll get away with just an assessment but I expect the group aspect will need to be considered. 

Looking at Bobling's profile he looks to be Bristol based?

That area is covered by Avon County and contact details can be found here https://www.avonscouts.org.uk/about-us/county-team/  I recommend you speak to their 'Activities Commissioner', whose email address is listed, and they should be happy to chat through your questions and concerns.  If, at the end it all, you're still interested in helping they'll also be able to suggest the best way to get you involved.

With respect to gear, some good points have been made re: logging, people moving on etc.  One of the things that I ask groups who are considering purchase is to work out cost/use based on 5 and 10 year life spans.  As pointed out, it's often no more than hiring equipment from the local wall.  If you're going outside then it's again worth contacting Avon's County team as a lot of Counties will have equipment available for suitably qualified instructors, since the County's cost per use is often a lot lower.

Thanks,

Gavin

Assistant County Commissioner (Activities), East Lancashire Scouts

Surprisingly, if you look at the accident stats, it actually isn't.  Very few reportable accidents occur in Scouting due to adventurous activities these days.  There was an issue in the 1990s, but the Permit Scheme has been hugely tightened up since then (while remaining realistic and reasonably accessible), and attitudes have massively shifted.

Most accidents happen in the Scout HQ (during games and the likes) or during unstructured free time on camp.  Out of the 5 (I think) accident forms I've submitted during my Scouting career, 2 of them were relating to collisions during games of British Bulldog (no, it isn't banned) and 1 was someone falling over during a game of football during free time on camp and being unfortunate enough to put their hand out and land it on a piece of flint leading to a very large gash which required an overnight hospital stay to avoid infection[1][2].  I forget what the other two were, but none were anything that could even vaguely be construed as an adventurous activity.

[1] As a complete aside, this was an example of why we shouldn't abuse antibiotics...without them he'd probably have had to have a partial amputation, and it could even have been life-threatening.

[2] The only "Nights Away" badge I have awarded for a night in hospital...it would have been cruel to not let him reach 50 on his last camp just because of that!

As a total aside, this rather interesting (if dated sounding) piece goes into the lessons learned from the 1990s incidents and the complete culture change it necessitated (and over time, has delivered).  You clearly have the right attitude in taking this seriously.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010617215422/http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/wales/13lessons.htm

Note, it doesn't 100% reflect current rules - but the things that changed as a result of that have actually by and large remained in place.

Been a leader myself for some years now,

My troop have gone climbing indoors and out a few times but we have always given the money to another training provider who have dealt with all the organisation of the activity meaning you just turn up with the consent forms and the scouts.

The problem with climbing is there is a lot of hanging around and (very necessary) really boring safety related stuff.  We try to run a varied program that gives them the opportunity to try loads of different activities from gliding to caving, the main theme is that they are in the great outdoors! 

Last time we did a camp in Sussex they were a bit meh about toproping on the sandstone but far more excited about slacklining, wide games in the woods and chucking stones at targets.

Owning the kit opens up a whole can of worms, better to leave it to the full time training providers IMVHO...

Brilliant, thanks for taking the time to write that, really helpful!

Again thanks to everyone who has contributed.  Great stuff - that's why I love the Hivemind!

Particularly interesting points about the idea of just hiring/borrowing kit rather than buying some for our unit.  

It really doesn't.  Label the kit up, have a log sheet for each item, inspect regularly, bin if any damage visible or at manufacturer's recommended age.  I manage this for our wall and it is not in the slightest bit onerous.

I've only done a little bit with the Scouts, but a few thoughts:

Climbing is, I think, a sport that needs some investment of mental energy and passion to become very rewarding. But, the Scouts' approach of permits for staff and badges for kids, to my mind, leads to a very superficial engagement. You have leaders with permits who rarely climb and have little understanding of how to teach climbing to children; and you have kids who are just taken top-roping every now and again, without being given any understanding of what climbing is about, why it's exciting and how to develop their skills.

That may sound harsh, but it's not meant as a criticism of individuals; more as a frank reflection. Teaching climbing and making it interesting requires real skill; and learning about why climbing is worthwhile requires a sustained enough engagement to move past learning to tie-in, belay and other basic safety, to start developing the beginnings of an understanding of climbing movement.

Given this I think indoor is more appropriate than outdoor. It's less damaging to the environment and generally easier and quicker to manage students inside. I also think that, unless there is a leader with a lot of experience and a real passion, it would be better to pay an instructor. Finally, I think finding a way for scouts who enjoy the experience to regularly go climbing would be positive.

On a separate note, it's also worth giving special attention to encouraging skills development and encouraging the girls, as the thing I've found most rewarding is when someone who thinks climbing isn't for them suddenly realises that they can actually make some headway.

That's my two pence, anyhow.

There's some good advise on this thread, the best being to speak to your County Climbing Advisor first. They'll let you know about any training available in county, and there may well be kit held at county level that you could use. Most groups find themselves replacing kit because of the manufacturer lifespan rather than actual usage. By pooling at a county level you help everyone in the county to have a set of kit to use, even the groups who wouldn't use it enough to justify having their own, and you'll all get to use newer kit.

If you're Bristol based then https://www.avonscouts.org.uk/activity-adventure/land/climbing-abseiling-hi... is the relevant county information. You've also got the benefit of a range of walls which suit different styles of session.

Bouldering is a good option that doesn't require any kit, or a permit. See https://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/8/bouldering?moduleID=24&... and https://members.scouts.org.uk/FS120428. You do need to think about how to run an engaging session though - there's loads of games you can use that also cover some element of technique.

I hope that helps.

Andy

Can you still claim the onsight if you've scouted it? 

In reply to Bobling:

Only if it has a Scout related name: Scout Crack (S).

Wow, who knew there were so many Scout related climbs?

*waves goodbye to thread as it dives down a punning tangent*