UKH

I would like to start doing some trad chalk cliff climbing (with ice tools, crampons etc.). I have read that this requires warthogs for protection but I can find little online about this. Are there any other options for pro that are less expensive? Would some more pointy pitons or maybe tomahawks be suitable?

sorry for the probably stupid question, I have no experience beyond the conventional uk trad gear.

thanks for any help

In reply to Alex Edge:

Warthogs and hooks are about your best cosmetic protection to help with the headgame. Get a lump hammer for 'placing' it but you seriously don't want to have a fall on it. There is plenty on line:

http://leeharrisonclimbing.blogspot.com/2016/03/a-guide-to-climbing-at-dove...

http://www.climbers-club.co.uk/cms/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/chalk.pdf

http://timhowelladventure.com/do-you-need-chalk-to-climb-chalk-white-cliffs...

https://ipswich-m-c.co.uk/chalking-it-up-to-experience/

The local guidebooks have info as does this site and the BMC Regional Access Database; check tides too and I think calls to the coastguard are still necessary in most locations.

In reply to JimmAwelon:

thanks mate, this is very useful

 

In reply to Alex Edge:

Sorry to piss on your parade, but isn't this pretty irresponsible ?

Not being argumentative, but think about Point Five/ Zero etc, at the end of a season, getting put into deep freeze at the end of a season, wheeled out next season, no new coverage, how long would they last?

As an Old Git, I don't believe that just because you can, you should.

Would love to hear what Mick Fowler's views on this would be 20+ years on......

In reply to Ade in Sheffield:

Yeah, these are valid points and as I said I’m not an expert on this so I’m just researching how I might go about doing it. The ethics are important but I think the little traffic these chalk routes get when they are already eroding loads on their own would have little impact.

In reply to Ade in Sheffield:in what way irresponsible - damaging the rock? Those cliffs are being actively eroded

 

In reply to Ade in Sheffield:

On that coastline the sea doesn't give much chance for climbers to do much damage, I think it's more a case get it done while there still there!

In reply to Alex Edge:

How much experience do you have with climbing long runouts on dangerous ground? 

I ask because I had a quick look at your recent ascents and everything on the list looks quite sensible.  Steep choss is qualitatively different.

In reply to d_b:

no, not some much runout or chossy climbing. This would certainly be a step up in risk and I Want to set up a top rope in the Washington chalk quarry ( Washington Chalk Quarry) to get the hang of hammering gear and climbing on chalk before setting off on a coastal epic.

In reply to Alex Edge:

Warthogs are by far the best thing. If you get to the stage of recognising good placements from bad placements then the good placements are usually pretty good. The general rule of thumb is the longer they take to bang in the stronger they'll be. I wouldn't bother with Bulldogs, Tomahawks etc. They'll be weaker due to the shorter depth of placement. 

In reply to Mr. Lee:

Thanks

In reply to Alex Edge:

I did a route* in August that included about 300m of 40m runouts with everything moving and the knowledge that my belayer wasn't attached to anything.  We were shitting ourselves for most of the 16 hours we were climbing.  I have only been outside once since.

Meter for meter the tiny bit of "easy" chalk I have done was worse.

I'm not saying don't do it, but make damn sure you know what you are getting into.

*Dibanova Smer (Dibona Route) (IV+) for the record.  Just say no kids.

In reply to d_b:

wow, that looks like a hardcore route and puts the difficulty into perspective.

I’m not going to rush into doing any routes anytime soon and I will definitely try to toprope lots of chalk before being confident in my placements and technique.

In reply to Alex Edge:

It was supposed to be a long easy route with a handful of pitches of HS.  Turns out the easier pitches were the scary ones.

 

 

In reply to JimmAwelon:

I know Si Ballantine used to use lengths of ribbed re-bar.

 

In reply to Alex Edge:

Chalk climbing isn't that bad! You do need to be sensible though. It's tidal, so abseiling off into the sea is not recommended. A head torch is a very good idea because the routes take longer than you exoect. Do tell the coastguard of your plans and don't forget to tell them when you're finished. While I don't recommend falling off, a warthog in solid chalk is bomb proof as you'll realise since it will take a few minutes to hammer in  even with a lump hanmer. I fell off once  and I'm still here. The exits can be 'interesting' as the grass - chalk transition zone can be challenging and not protectable. And sometimes overhanging 

Enjoy  

In reply to Alex Edge:

PS just peeked at your logbook. Honest opinion, unless it's incomplete, I'd get a good amount of winter or ice climbs done first. Ignore the grades in the old cc guide. You really need to be leading at least Scottish V ice confidently before contemplating Dover style chalk. There's easier graded routes but the overall seriousness means you need some headroom with the grades. A lot of listed routes have also changed form to varying degrees meaning a grade or two hand is useful. 

In reply to Mr. Lee:

My logbook isn’t complete and no, I don’t have any experience with hard ice climbing beyond about 10m of vertical ice climbing as a second.

with moderate experience in winter conditions and with some 300m alpine rock routes down my belt, do you think I could self teach ice climbing starting on easy routes, say in Scotland this winter or should I look into hiring a guide? Ice climbing was actually my ultimate goal with chalk as training but it seems I’ve got this the wrong way round.

thanks

In reply to Alex Edge:

My only experience of chalk climbing is Skeleton Ridge (brilliant) which apparently is good quality rock (for chalk!) climbed without crampons and axes. Every piton on the route was completely corroded and we used long blade pitons (club hammer essential). I'd asked for advice on climbing chalk and one reply mentioned falling, pulling out two warthogs and being held by a snarg (old hammer in and screw out ice protection). In fact there was a pair of snargs in place on Skeleton Ridge which had probably been used for an abseil (the user obviously had confidence in them). In my very limited experience chalk is extremely unpredictable and doesn't require lines of weakness to break off. I had experimented on chalk cliffs at sea level previously.
 

In reply to oldie:

The likes of Skeleton Ridge is very different from the Dover style chalk climbing though. 

The former style is better suited to a rock climbing style, and generally partly relies on old insitu gear for protection. Hence it can be runout.

The latter chalk, which the OP enquired about, is a little softer, less brittle, and better suited to axes/crampons. There's generally little/no insitu, with protection relying on warthogs. It's as runout and the leader wants it to be, as with ice climbing. Ie not the slightest bit runout if the leader has the leader is happy to spend half their time hammering warthogs. The only exception is towards the very top as David describes. The chalk can be anything from chossy to bullet hard.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

I obviously didn't emphasize the difference enough. Personally I found it terrifying even just watching a video of someone climbing a chalk route with ice gear (Great White Fright I think). Obviously trying a route on a toprope might be an invaluable introduction. 

 

 

In reply to Alex Edge:

As far as pro is concerned there are two options.

For sea cliff climbing  (softer chalk at the bottom due the capillary action of the salt water, to harder in the middle and choss at the top, it’s generally warthogs banged in on the lead while hanging off  or clipped into your tools, to an equalised lower off just under the choss ar the top, or topping out for the brave / mad.

You then pull the ropes and lead it clean - a form of sport chalk pioneered by Dave Pegler and others.

For inland / quarried chalk, I have  used 30 cm long  12 mm  A4 threaded stainless steel bar glued in with a s/steel hanger, s/steel washer and nylock nut. Then static rope bridles at the top for lower offs. Again a type of sports chalk.

Neither are cheap!  But good fun and good training for ice.

In reply to taddersandbadger:

Are you sure ice isn’t good training for chalk? I was curious but in the end decided against it as ice seemed a lot safer and more predictable.

In reply to Alex Edge:

There's plenty of chalk climbing that is not necky. One golden rule though, don't climb there right after or during heavy rain. The traversing at saltdean is the best training for ice climbing anywhere hands down. Then there are the sport routes, Andre Hedger Sr. regularly puts them up as they fall down. They don't require trad gear and they are really good fun. I'd say try that before you try the trad version with wartdogs and bulldogs. If you do try the trad, The Tube is a good introduction route. Have fun and stay save

In reply to Ramon Marin:

Yeah agreed. Worth bringing a spotter though in case a hold randomly blows whilst on an overhung section. Some of the rocky landings can be quite unpleasant if you land back first, despite the traverses being close to the ground. The blood stains on my old car seat are evidence of this!