Which degree - history or law?

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 Yanis Nayu 23 Aug 2018

Which degree is considered better in an employability sense if you’re not going to practise law?

My daughter is interested in both and may wish to practise law, but isn’t set on it.  I’d always thought a law degree would be a good all-round degree for a number of careers, but she thinks history (or even English) would be a better bet. Anyone in the know have any insight or opinion?

Thanks in advance.

 

 Tyler 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

A law degree has real world application outside a career as a barrister/solicitor, history less so. 

Edit: in my view of course, I've no doubt many history grads will be along to put me right.

Post edited at 11:18
 gethin_allen 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Law.

Why: Includes may aspects of history such as research and comprehension if subjects and much more like forming an effective argument. Also, it doesn't carry the stigma of history that it's a slackers degree (even if this isn't necessarily the case).

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 Chris the Tall 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I did a degree in Law and Politics, but didn't pursue a career in either once it became apparent I couldn't win an argument with anyone.

Nonetheless I think the structured way of thinking you get from law has actually been quite useful in the career I did go for - software development

 Welsh Kate 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

A history degree will give your daughter the basis for a huge number of careers, including law! When people ask me that question, my response is generally "what do you want to do with your history degree?" I'm head of admissions in a multi-subject school including history at a Russell Group university (and given my UKC name, you should be able to work out which one!)

History students go on to do all kinds of things because they've learned such a rich variety of skills including researching all different kinds of evidence, data analysis, constructing arguments on the basis of critical analysis of evidence (including extrapolating from holes in the evidence), communication skills, understanding different cultures and societies, as well as learning from the past to try to understand the present (and future).

What have our history graduates gone on to do? Anything a law graduate might do.

A history degree has at least as much 'real world application' (whatever that means) as a law degree.

I'm not saying this because I'm trying to recruit vast numbers of history students to my department, we have more than enough of them thanks! I'm saying it because there's so much misinformation out there about humanties degrees, and they shouldn't be dismissed so quickly.

The other thing is that this is your daughter's opportunity to study what she wants. If she's not looking for a vocational degree, she's going to be better off studying something that interests her rather: she's likely to do better, to enjoy it (which is important), and with a good history - or english degree from a good university - what does she want to do with it?

Post edited at 11:36
 wintertree 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

To late for physics then?

I know people with history degrees who’ve gone to work for decent parts of the civil service including assuring compliance with the law.  I know people with law degrees who have gone to work on law.  I’ve met legal types in a specialised field who transferred over from a science background with in-role training and then qualifications.  The (first, in some cases) degree doesn’t seem to matter much.

In terms of doing a degeee for employability rather than doing one to learn about something of interest, or to get a specific skill/qualification for a specific field...  I think what matters more (in no particular order) is:

  • Study at in an institution that’s recognised as “good” by employers.  All history degrees of say 2:1 are not viewed as equal by some large employers.
  • A course she will really enjoy and engage with.  It’s not uncommon to meet a student who is doing a degree they don’t like because of employment ideas or parental pressure.  This can lead to demotivation which then forms a viscous circle with disengagement and failure.
  • Potentially somewhere with a good pastoral care system - such as regular personal contact with a tutor or advisor etc.  This can make a huge difference if something goes wrong.  That something can be academic, personal, unanticipated or beyond their control.  

Sorry I didn’t answer your question...  I’m not a humaities sort and can only comment on what I’ve seen and more generic aspects.

Post edited at 11:47
 Andy Hardy 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Is it possible to do joint honours? Or law with a history subsidiary or vice versa?

Failing that, she should do what she's most interested in, because that's what uni's are for.

 skog 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> I did a degree in Law and Politics, but didn't pursue a career in either once it became apparent I couldn't win an argument with anyone.

Don't be silly, of course you can.

 Duncan Bourne 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

My First thought would be "What is she good at? What does she enjoy?"

Both law and history facinate me for different reasons. If you are going to spend 3-4 years and God knows how much money. Then you might as well do something you are good at and enjoy.

Yes you can earn a lot as a lawyer but only if you pass the degree. Better to do something you are passionate about.

 

 Chris the Tall 23 Aug 2018
In reply to skog:

> Don't be silly, of course you can.

OK, you're right, you win  

 Offwidth 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Its always best for the student to follow the area of their greatest interest. Historians have better and wider career prospects (from the data) than the public realise and law worst prospects than the public expect (law is better on employability data but the overall stats are fairly simliar). Few have the motivation and stamina to do well in a subject they dislike.

https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/careers/what-do-graduates-do-a...

Post edited at 12:14
 ClimberEd 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

As no one else has mentioned it. Depends where.

IMHO, if the university is not top tier then the more vocational or rigorous the degree the better - so in this case law. If it's oxbridge and they don't want to actually practice law (and even if they did as there are plenty of conversion courses out there) it doesn't much matter.

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 Offwidth 23 Aug 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

Again all this stuff about Universities doesn't match the stats. Sure Oxbridge grads do much better than London Met grads on average but thats mainly on historical data and even then that data shows some Universities regarded with high reputations are being overtaken by 'new' Universities. The current graduate employment stats  (recent graduates employed in a gradute level job) is hard reliable data (of graduate employment levels). The league tables, especially the Guardian showing instituitions like Coventry as just outside the top 10, are less reliable but some of the data used to form these tables is useful. Guardian is so bad because its heavily based on NSS and there has never been any research evidence that such survey outputs have any correlation with teaching quality of Higher Education. TEF, the govermnet teaching quality, assessment  has the same fundamental flaw (ie reliance on NSS ... and a few more flaws besides)

https://www.rss.org.uk/Images/PDF/influencing-change/2018/RSS-Evidence-Dept...

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/tide-turning-against-using-studen...

Post edited at 12:41
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 stevieb 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

In the traditional UKC style, I will ask/answer a totally different question.

When my daughter was looking at a career in law, I got a lot of advice that the apprenticeship route is every bit as good as the degree route, and avoids the debt. Possibly a disadvantage for the most high flying roles, but better regarded for 'normal' roles

 ClimberEd 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

Whatever the 'stats' say if you want the best graduate jobs you need to have gone to the best universities.

Goldman Sachs will not be hiring anyone from Coventry......

 MG 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

>. The current graduate employment stats  (recent graduates employed in a gradute level job) is hard reliable data.

Not really for a multitude of reasons including game playing by universities in how it's recorded, the fact it is done just 6 months after graduation, that the categories it uses are very dated and so on.  The system is changing, possibly slightly for the better from this year.

 

 Offwidth 23 Aug 2018
In reply to MG:

Just edited my post... you can't game graduate employment very easily (unlike NSS... most students 'get to know' a bad score hits their prospects), but I'd agree the data collection could be improved. The biggest problem with use of graduate employment data is the lack of any evidential link to teaching quality (something the RSS complain about for their TEF response). Its often some of the 'best' institutions guilty here ....in my view some Universities rely on bright students with guarenteed prospects to ignore a proper response to deal with below par teaching and support in general.

Some reports on graduate employment gaming: Sussex and Derby both of whom had real reputation damage due to this (ie its not easy, often expensive and high risk... unlike NSS gaming which is widespread and no one ever seems to get caught)

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/nick-chowdrey/universities-employment-figu...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/01/derby-university-data-stude...

Post edited at 13:00
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 wintertree 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

> in my view some Universities rely on bright students with guarenteed prospects to ignore a proper response to deal with below par teaching and support in general.

Well you can’t expect them to devote sufficient time to both (a) the students and (b) gaming an ever rising number of surveys, league tables and evaluations can you... 

 MG 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

> Just edited my post... you can't game graduate employment very easily (unlike NSS... most students 'get to know' a bad score hits their prospects), but I'd agree the data collection could be improved.

There is a plenty of scope for choosing whether certain occupations are graduate or not.

> The biggest problem with use of graduate employment data is the lack of any evidential link to teaching quality (something the RSS complain about for their TEF response). 

There probably isn't a strong one.  The main benefit from more prestigious universities will be the hugely varied mix of  capable, motivated, intelligent people (students and staff) that are there. The range of thinking students will get exposed to and the networking opportunities presented will consequently be vastly greater. (I suppose this could be viewed as teaching of a kind)

 

 

 

 GridNorth 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I studied Electrical Engineering in the 60's/70's and I found it extremely difficult and requiring attendance at many hours of lectures.  Law and Medicine seemed to be similarly demanding.  Humanities subjects, in comparison, seemed far more relaxed but at that time I thought that they offered very limited career prospects so I did not study History as I would have liked.  Many years later I did do History via the OU and I have to say that in comparison to EE it was easy but perhaps that's because I wanted to do it rather than seeing it as a means of career progression.

More recently I managed teams and at the time the graduate intake did not really differentiate between degrees.  A degree was a degree but we started to move away from that idea because too many Humanities graduates were not really comfortable in technical roles and were under performing.  

Al

Post edited at 13:05
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 Ridge 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

> Its always best for the student to follow the area of their greatest interest. 

This. I never went to Uni, partially because I couldn't face doing a degree for no other reason than employability.

I'm 52 now, and I still can't think of anything academic that interests me enough to commit to doing a degree in the subject.

From the discussion above it seems a degree in either subject, (from a good Uni), ticks the employability box, so my uninformed opinion would be to go for the subject that interests her.

 The Grist 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I have a history degree. I then incurred additional costs in doing a conversion costs to be a solicitor.

I then decided I wanted to be a history teacher. I incurred the costs to train to teach history. I then realised that was a big mistake and went back to law.

On balance I wish I had done a law degree in the first place........

but another point is that it is harder to get onto a law degree than a history degree.

 Offwidth 23 Aug 2018
In reply to MG:

I think some big name institutions always took teaching and student support seriously across the board and some others didn't in the past and are being forced to do so now (as an example the differences between Oxbridge and Imperial in my day  in Engineering and Physical Sciences (early 80s), from many friends I met on a 1 year pre-Uni graduate apprentiship course, seemed stark. Things have improved a lot since then but even in the current good places teaching and support standards vary from department to department and with time.

I'd add that wintertree's sarcasm is well placed: we do have a target culture that distorts priorities instead of a focus on what should be important in a University: real teaching and student support quality; real research quality and real contributions to wider society. None of the KPI's for these areas seem to properly match and the management of all of them seem very expensive, time consuming and bureaucratic (ie terrible value for money... and funded mainly by fees). HE is currently also very expensive in the UK outside Scotland and doing really badly to close attainment and equality gaps ... I'd recommend prospective students (especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds) at least to look at Europe (lower or zero fee for a wide range of courses taught in English in top rated institutions and often much cheaper accommodation) or sponsorship opportunities or alternatives.

Post edited at 13:45
 Offwidth 23 Aug 2018
In reply to GridNorth:

In contrast didn't IBM around your time  famously have an initiative to employ good history graduates as they were bright and hadn't picked up any bad programming habits.  There have been various reports in my time as an academic (since the mid 80s ) that history grads were near the top of long term employability prospects: so they clearly did very well in graduate employment roles.

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 Offwidth 23 Aug 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

We are similar in profile  to Coventry and have placed students in many big name investment banks and accountancy firms across several subjects and have plenty of graduates employed. I don't know Coventry details but would be amazed if what you said is true. Luckily these companies don't share your predudices. Students who gained placements or graduate posts in such organisation did so in tough competitive procesess with peers from across the best of UK HE (or were offered a job direct from doing well as a placement student).

Post edited at 13:42
 GridNorth 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

Many Corporations did the same I'm just pointing out that my Corporation abandoned it because it was not working for either party.  These were more tech support type roles I would add.  The point being that expertise in one area does not necessarily translate into another.  I think that has always been one of the problems in the UK and it's rooted in the class system.  I wonder how many current Ministers or even MP's have degrees that relate to the modern world either in business or technology. Engineering and trades have always been looked down on IMO.

Al

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 spidermonkey09 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Welsh Kate:

Brilliant response. I have an MA in History from Leicester and am battle hardened from constantly defending my degree and my choice of university. Might memorise that answer!

More generally, history and the humanities in general require a totally different approach to the sciences and require different skills to do well in. Sciences there is more often and right and wrong answer, which has positives and negatives. Not revising will mean you fail, while knowing the course backwards can result in very high exam results, in the region of 85 plus out of 100. They also require a different attitude to learning, with lots of contact time and very structured approach.

By contrast, the humanities very rarely have a right or a wrong answer to a given question. A student has the option to answer the question however they wish, and rely upon the strength of their argument for their marks. As above, this has positives and negatives. Not revising is not the end of the world, as you can cobble an average argument together and scrape yourself a 2.2 more often than not. However, even knowing the course backwards is unlikely to bring you exceptional results. I got a Distinction in my Masters and the highest mark I ever received out of 100 was about 75; ie 5 marks into the Distinction bracket. The top 20 marks of the marking system effectively don't exist in the humanities. The best I ever got was somewhere in the low 80's. By contrast, excellent science students receive marks in the 90s pretty frequently. The lack of contact time in a humanities degree brings challenges such as working independently, with very little contact time or guidance, in direct contrast to a lot of science degrees. The ability to structure my own work is invaluable and something that a lot of my science student friends are utterly useless at! 

Basically, I've always been of the view that getting a 2.1 in a humanities subject is comparatively easier than getting a 2.1 in a science subject. However, getting a First in a humanities subject is comparatively harder because the top mark is, by proxy, about 80.

Oh, and the university you go to is basically irrelevant if you go and get a first. 

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 Doug 23 Aug 2018
In reply to spidermonkey09:

I'm sure your description of the humanities is correct but remember that science covers a wide range of subjects. Your account of science might be correct for physics but as a biologist I wrote many essays  (& exam questions) where there was no single correct answer & as with history, etc it was a matter of constructing an argument and supporting it with evidence.

Post edited at 15:39
 spidermonkey09 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Doug:

Good point; I am obviously generalising! I think on that more general level the point stands but appreciate its shades of grey.

 wintertree 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Doug:

> Your account of science might be correct for physics but as a biologist I had wrote many essays  (& exam questions) where there was no single correct answer & as with history, etc it was a matter of constructing an argument and supporting it with evidence.

There are good physics undergraduate essay topics.  For example the various interpretations of quantum mechanics, where there is no single correct answer (beyond dogmatic individuals anyhow).  I don’t think such topics are often set as an exam question however, arguably to the weakness of the degree and the field.

OP Yanis Nayu 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Thanks to everyone for all the replies - UKC doing the business as usual!

She told me that there’s quite a high unemployment rate for law graduates not practising law, and that seems to be borne out by what people have said on here. I think that as she’s not dead set on practising law (it’s just a reasonable career option for her at the moment) it would make more sense for her to keep her options as open as possible by studying history, if she’s still keen on it and does well in her A levels, and then converting to law if that’s the path she chooses to take at that stage in her life.

Anyhow, it’ll be her choice when the time comes, but it’s nice to be as informed as possible for offering advice and guidance.

Thanks again.

 

 toad 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

My wife is a lawyer with a law degree. She absolutely would not do a law degree now and said ( she does some aspects of recruitment) that they don’t seek out law graduates as trainees. At the time (late eighties) she said the degree was boring and she really wished she’d done history or English and then the conversion course. In fairness, I doubt in the current climate that she would recommend a law career  at all

Post edited at 17:06
Removed User 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> Failing that, she should do what she's most interested in, because that's what uni's are for.

A practical reason for this is that if she is going to spend 4 years of her life doing something which will get increasingly demanding (in terms of coursework, dissertations, exams etc) while also sinking herself into substantial debt it has to be something she can realise enough motivation from to stick with it.

 Timmd 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Removed UserStuart en Écosse:

> A practical reason for this is that if she is going to spend 4 years of her life doing something which will get increasingly demanding (in terms of coursework, dissertations, exams etc) while also sinking herself into substantial debt it has to be something she can realise enough motivation from to stick with it.

Absolutely.

Post edited at 18:46
 tjdodd 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

The most important thing is that she does a degree in a subject she enjoys and in a place she enjoys living.  This will lead to her enjoying her time at university, getting the most out of developing as a person and putting the work in in her studies.  Ultimately this will lead to her getting the best possible degree which will maximise her career prospects.

Don't pressurise her or try to over influence.  Give your view to help her make an informed decision but make it clear it is her decision and you will support her whatever she decides.  I see too many students who do what their parents want and end up not enjoying themselves and moving course or leaving university.

 BusyLizzie 23 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I am a lawyer with a classics degree and I am so glad I did it that way!

 RockSteady 24 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I think she should do what she is most interested in. I think Law is a more work-intensive degree of the two, to help you prepare for a work-intensive career.

I did an English degree and a law conversion course and had no problem getting interviews at top barristers' chambers - mind you that was 12 years ago - I get the impression that getting on the career ladder now is harder and more competitive than ever before. Whatever she does she would be well-advised to do lots of work placements etc in her holidays to learn more about different types of law if that's what she's considering.

Law may not be such a reliable career in the future - it's on the list of fields that may be heavily impacted by the advent of AI and machine learning.

 Doug 24 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I'd agree with others in saying she should choose a subject in which she is interested and ideally in a place she'll enjoy living. I started studying chemistry as I was good at it at school & was pushed in that direction by my school. I wasn't sure but having gained a place at Oxford it was difficult to argue that I wasn't sure (& the school leaver me didn't have a lot of self confidence). Once there I realised I didn't enjoy the subject & struggled to keep up, not helped by being away most weekends to go climbing. I left at the end of the first year & got a job for a while. I then went back to university studying biology & environmental science which I really enjoyed.  As I enjoyed the subject I read very widely which I'm sure helped me get good grades.

OP Yanis Nayu 24 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Thanks again for all the replies - reading them all with interest. Love UKC for this sort of thing; so many informed people. 

Deadeye 24 Aug 2018
In reply to Welsh Kate:

> A history degree will give your daughter the basis for a huge number of careers, including law! When people ask me that question, my response is generally "what do you want to do with your history degree?" I'm head of admissions in a multi-subject school including history at a Russell Group university (and given my UKC name, you should be able to work out which one!)

> History students go on to do all kinds of things because they've learned such a rich variety of skills including researching all different kinds of evidence, data analysis, constructing arguments on the basis of critical analysis of evidence (including extrapolating from holes in the evidence), communication skills, understanding different cultures and societies, as well as learning from the past to try to understand the present (and future).

> What have our history graduates gone on to do? Anything a law graduate might do.

> A history degree has at least as much 'real world application' (whatever that means) as a law degree.

> I'm not saying this because I'm trying to recruit vast numbers of history students to my department, we have more than enough of them thanks! I'm saying it because there's so much misinformation out there about humanties degrees, and they shouldn't be dismissed so quickly.

> The other thing is that this is your daughter's opportunity to study what she wants. If she's not looking for a vocational degree, she's going to be better off studying something that interests her rather: she's likely to do better, to enjoy it (which is important), and with a good history - or english degree from a good university - what does she want to do with it?


This.  But do law.

In reply to toad:

>In fairness, I doubt in the current climate that she would recommend a law career  at all

Any particular reason? I have anecdotal evidence of cases being senselessly pursued, usually at the behest of paralegals with poor comprehension skills (or just desperate to keep a gravy train moving).  I had hoped I was just a bit unlucky... maybe not.

 BnB 25 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

A bit late to the thread and only an echo of what others have said, but I deal with a lot of corporate lawyers (ie amongst the most ambitious) who are universal in their advice to would-be lawyers that a degree in a strong humanities or science subject followed by a conversion course is considerably less boring and not remotely hobbling of opportunity. At graduate stage, top law firms are looking for the brightest and most driven, not the most narrowly-focused.

 SV 25 Aug 2018
In reply to BnB:

> A bit late to the thread and only an echo of what others have said, but I deal with a lot of corporate lawyers (ie amongst the most ambitious) who are universal in their advice to would-be lawyers that a degree in a strong humanities or science subject followed by a conversion course is considerably less boring and not remotely hobbling of opportunity. At graduate stage, top law firms are looking for the brightest and most driven, not the most narrowly-focused.

I used to be a corporate lawyer. I really really wish I'd taken a degree in something I loved and was interested in instead of law. My mates at uni had far fewer lectures and a much less pressured course and then converted to law with no adverse effects on their legal careers at all. I wish I'd taken french or English and converted but I was pressured into law by people who didn't know better and thought it was the only route to a legal career and because I was told it was a 'good degree' to have. If your daughter doesn't even think she wants a legal career there may be much better degrees for her...

Post edited at 09:47
 Weekend Punter 25 Aug 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I suppose another point of research would be to look at recruiter websites to see what they are seeking, speak to recruitment agencies who specialise in the chosen field and maybe even speak with a few local smaller firms.

With speaking direct to companies there could be an opportunity to secure some sort of work experience. This will have a dual benefit of confirming whether that is career for her and it will certainly help set your daughter out from the crowd.


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