UKH

I've just come back from a run and yet again I have been jumped on and snapped at by a dog while the owner has just stood there and did nothing. When I asked the owner to get hold of his dog and put it on the lead he started getting shirty with me. It turns out the dog owner did not even have a lead for his dog. This type of incident is happening to me more and more and I'm getting a little bit sick of it. Its also becoming to be a common occurrence on the Lakeland hills. So instead of deploying the fist of fury to the dog owners chin can you recommend anything that may help or course of action to take.

One of our neighbouring farmers once shot dead an out of control dog, and that seems to have made a difference to local dog walkers.  

They take them to shit on our land now instead.

Out of all the things I tried when I used to do lots of running, I don’t have any positive suggestions apart from avoiding the worst places.

im so with you on this one mate-they seem to have collective tunnel vision and view their muts thru perpetual rose rimmed glasses.....

"oh no, he would'nt harm a fly" as it procedes to rip a childs head off ! then they take generally take offence when you point out the obvious. the idiots forget their darlings are 9 parts wolf. yes, some of them are inquisitive, but intelligent ? come on ....  

This is becoming more and more prevalent throughout the UK - yet it doesn't seem to be a problem over seas.

Dog owners do not seem to understand that people do not like being accosted by their pets.

Mind you, how many dog owners can read - not that many by the scenes in our local parks where dogs seem to roam freely, irrespective of the "dogs on leads" signs - yet who seem to be aggrieved when you approach them and ask for the offending mutt to be out on a lead.

You have my sympathies. 

"yet it doesn't seem to be a problem over seas."

Dunno about that. I went on holiday to the Algarve a couple of years ago and went for a run each morning through some arid countryside made up of lots of small holdings. It was like running a gauntlet of rabid Baskerville hounds...I think I caused an injury to myself by trying to run on tip toes past most of the houses.

The easiest way to stop a dog chasing you is to stop. Say hello to the dog cheerfully, pet it then walk/jog back towards the owner. 

That way you get a little extra exercise (which is whar you were out for in the first place) and gain 2 new friends, rather than a whole load of stress and an assault charge. 

"gain 2 new friends" r u 4 real ?

Ignore the P W post. Its a troll statement or a seriously misguided/ignorant view on the problem.  

On the contrary, one of mine ignores everyone who keeps going and only approaches folk if they stop. 

2 new friends, the dog and its owner. 

I was taught this tactic as a child, it works well. 

The owner is more likely to react positively to the gentle embarrassment of having his dog cheerily returned than the barrage of abuse and aggression suggested by the OP

Apologist.

try shouting BED at the dog its the only word they all understand and it confuses them!

Wow. Amazed by the number of dislikes this has received. Ok maybe it's not phrased right, but it's the right general idea - if you change your attitude then you can gain something positive out of the encounter.

It's precisely what I do when I out cycling through Sheffield parks. Yes I could take the attitude that the dogs shouldn't be getting in my way - ok generally the dog isn't chasing me, but chasing another dog, or a squirrel, or just slowly ambling along the path. So I slow down and say hello to the dog and the owner and smile. 

And I definitely enjoy my ride more that way. 

Carry a stick.

Dogs don't like them and will normally back off.

If they don't you can use it to kill the dog. Sticks are also useful for scraping dog shit off the soles of your shoes, bramble bashing, and as a crutch to limp home if the dog owner breaks your leg for hitting their dog.

Got a lecture in our local park because aparantly if the owner can read from my body language that I'm afraid of dogs I am inviting them to harass me.

I resisted pointing out that if it was that obvious I was frightened, any decent person would have recalled their dogs, not given me a lecture.

FFS, after over 30 years of being afraid of dogs this was me on a good day controlling my fear (and not using random kids as a human shield, running away in tears or screaming at full volume in blind panic). 

Running along the beach at Antalya in Turkey was the same.

Packs of wild dogs especially in the mornings and evenings.

I managed to avoid them until the last day of our holiday when a bitch, defending her pups, chased me and ripped my luckily baggy shorts to bits with its teeth.

Somehow she missed my skin and I haven't run that fast before or since!

Happens regularly. I was out running, dog comes charging towards me, barking etc., owner says it because you’re wearing a baseball cap. I take it off and put it in my pocket. Dogs carries on, the owner says it’s too late, he’s seen you with it on...  I ask you, really??

Dogs also seem to hate bouldering mats. I have have learnt to begrudgingly accept this and the ambivalence of owners towards little Rover savaging me. To be fair i do carry two big ones strapped together and i imagine it looks a little strange.

Yes, for a forum that prides itself on it's liberalism and righteousness there's an awful lot of hate and anger being bandied around.. 

I once told someone If he tries for a new species, because if he does not control his dog, it would learn to fly... 

did not go down too well ...

Generally I find abroad dogs are much less of a problem. Fewer of them for starters and much more likely to be on leads. Have also noticed in places were dogs do roam free that locals are often clearly uncomfortable and wary of them. 

Wonder if rabies has something to do with it, as poorly behaved or out of control dogs are less likely to be tolerated as the consequences are so much worse. 

**** off ya tosser.

As a frequent runner, I generally do what Chris the Tall does and try to smile, say hello and carry on, since scowling habitually just makes mine and the dog owner's days a bit worse, and there are simply so many dogs  that I can't be doing with that.

That doesn't mean though that I don't wish they would go away, that I don't tense up when I approach someone with a large dog off its leash and that I haven't been seriously frightened by dogs. Three times in the last six months I have had two large dogs bearing down on me, snarling and coming very close. In two cases they came out of properties, and once I came across them when running in some woods. One of the owners told me I should run faster. 

If a dog lunges at me then I have two words for it.

Pipe down Wan.

It's not surprising, if kids are neglected because parents spend all their time on their phone, imagine what their pets are like. 

You could always just pick it up and run with it for a few 100m. It will give the owner a bit of exercise too. 

Nothing like failing to live up to your own standards.

Yes it can be distressing and has happened to me in the past, but look at it from the dog's point of view. If you run towards or near a dog it may feel threatened and see the situation as you attacking it. My dog is terrified of joggers and will bark and maybe snap to keep them at bay. This also applies to cyclists on the all too common dual-use paths or even worse and nearly as common, on a pedestrian path where, as a dog owner, I am more relaxed and less likely to be looking out for such idiots. That said, he is normally in control on a lead except in known safe areas so there is not likely to be any risk to you unless you surprise us from behind..

Two rules regarding dogs:

1) be cautious running towards them as they may see it as an attack, particularly if you come from behind without warning or 'blindside' them (and the owner).

2) don't approach an unknown dog without the owner's permission.

I am not that surprised Chris, whilst the Op did ask for strategies to deal with dogs, the tone of the post was let's all have a runners vs dog owners rant, where we can goad each other on to behaving poorly. 

Dave, I honestly thought you were joking around. You know, being ironic. How disappointed I truly am.

When I go for a run, very often I'm trying to push for a good time on a known route. Taking time out to be nice to a dog and its ignorant owner would effectively ruin much of the reason why I was running in the first place. I appreciate the sentiment of trying to better educate people about dogs and runners, but it would be far better if such owners activated some of their own grey matter and behaved responsibly with their beloved pets when out in public.

Mate, if you ran in our woods and met my dog you would beat any feckin strava segment

3. Don’t approach a dog and owner without the dogs permission

Have a 'like'!

I’m quite tempted to get the segment up the hill past my house renamed as Logan’s Hill. Any would be KoMs would be subjected to a race with my Dutch Shepherd.

For the benefit of the ignorant, I am of course joking. He stays on the lead 95% of the time, because he’s faster than me!

Allow me to extend to you an e-handshake, wrong though that sounds...

It is a two way street John, I am making no apologies for the poor behaviour of dog owners. I am putting forward a way of diffusing the situation without resorting to aggression. 

Times are only really important when racing and in a race environment you are less likely to come across other park/fell/track/road users. I have had tractors foul up time trials and equally have naughty drafted them to my gain. I don't wish to pick an online fight with farmers over this. 

Times are important as and when you feel them to be. I very rarely enter races but when I run I still very often want to test myself. If a tractor gets in the way, c'est la vie - it probably has a good reason to be in the way and there's always next time. If a dog off a lead where it shouldn't be gets in the way, that's different - and not easily excusable.

Ta

Replace the word “run” with “ride” and see how people react. Ok you are probably a far more serious runner than I have ever been, but nonetheless a run in the park is still a run in the park. Racing should be left to races

I don't agree. Do I really have to pay to enter a race before I can expect to be able to run fast without illegally loosed and untrained dogs getting in the way? Seems like apologising for unsociable behaviour to me.

John, before we proceed with this discussion, look at the Op profile. Earlier I was accused of being a troll... 

You don't appear to know very much about dogs?

Where are these places where it is illegal to have a dog loose?

I'm no faan of having to ease off for a loose dog but there are plenty of places where it is perfectly accapatble to a dog off the lead and if you come heaving around acorner at a run surprising both dog and owner you need to work together to co-exist in the space that you are sharing.

Completely agree. However, that's rather an extreme case and not really typical of the many occasions where some dogs seem to go out of their way to cause annoyance to other outdoor users.

And yes, maybe the countryside code isn't strictly a legal document, but it still is best practice advice.

I think you’ll find it’s cheaper to run a 10k on closed roads than ride a sportive on open roads, and Sheffield alone has 5 free 5k parkruns every Saturday, but that’s not my point.

it isn’t just that society as a whole is better with tolerant co-existence, but that as an individual you will be happier if you can look for positives out of such encounters, rather than focusing on frustrated ambitions.

(Sorry if that sounds pretentious- I’ve been drinking whilst watching the film version of J g Ballards high-rise)

Not a Fu**in gain!! Why didn't you ask it its opinion on brexit or the grade of 3PS? That would have had it heading in the other direction. Or you could have killed it with a stick ha ha ha ha ha 

The dog stuff was common sense.
However, the film reference is probably bordering on the pretentious...

It's people that are the problem, not dogs.

Possibly not. But I know more about their irresponsible owners. 

When I got bitten by a Rhodesian Ridgeback, it was very much the dog that was the immediate problem.  (It was my fault for cycling slowly past on a public road...)

For people attacked or intimidated by a dog, the fault is with the owner, the problem is with the dog.  

Crickey there is so much negative stuff on this site right now. The heat maybe?

I run regularly and can't recall an issue with a dog. Maybe a couple of comedy trip ups when they change direction at the last mo. I find that hilarious, but then anyone who isn't a pretty serious quality athlete should find the whole idea of running a bit funny IMHO.

The owners are always the problem. When i smile at them and say morning and they blank me i just think t*sser. Dogs are no problem compared to some humans. 

I used to walk a lot in the hills outside the city of Bogota, Colombia. Which is in South America. The locals advised you to fill your pockets full of stones and get your retaliation in first, when confronted with the dogs outside every passing finca. 

The UK though, is a nation of dog lovers. Unless, you want to end up on the front page of the Daily Mail and on Crimewatch, like the lady who put the cat in the bin, I suggest you keep on running, and let the dog chew on your calf, whilst you wave cheerfully at the owner. 

See it as good training for the Greater Ranges. 

If everyone followed your example and and kept dogs on the lead 95% of the time this debate wouldn't be necessary.

Does it matter whether it's the dog or the owner that is the problem?

The advice offered earlier was good for either scenario, it"s rather sad to see it so comprehensively opposed by so many.

Is it an extreme case, just about every time that I have had to stop or slow in order to allow an owner to regain control of their dog has been the result of me running into an area where they were legitimately allowing their dog a bit of excercise off the lead.

Humans are quite probably the only species that are naive enough to run at a dog and expect everything to be hunky dorey

"heaving around a corner at a run surprising both dog and owner" I'd say was pretty rare, yes.

"running into an area where they were legitimately allowing their dog a bit of excercise off the lead" is clearly not rare at all, and the most common irritant, it seems to me, is where a dog owner sees you coming up the road for some distance and does nothing to prevent their dog from terrorising you as you try to give it as wide a berth as possible.

Thankfully there are many much more responsible owners around, who just hang onto their dogs for a second while you pass, and I invariably thank them for their consideration.

Yes I have had my thigh nipped by an uncontrolled dog while mountain biking. The owner was poncing around on a snowy fell wearing a ground-length fur coat! What does that tell you about the owner?  I was so enraged that I threw the bike down and turned on the dog bellowing in anger; the dog scarpered as fast as its legs would carry it, looking back over its shoulder with an "Oh shit!" expression. The owner wailed "Ooooh has my dog bitten you?"

First remedy is to bend down and pretend to pick up a stone and throw it at the dog. It's a gesture that dogs recognise all over the world. Next would be a kick in the teeth and a friend of mine, attacked while jogging, actualy chinned a dog, sending it flying to the side of the path with a yelp. Another solution would be a cyclist's CO2 cylinder - a blast of cold gas in the face won't harm but will startle. Alternatively for a really nasty dog, pepper spray.

I generally like dogs having had lots when I was a child, but not uncontrolled ill-behaved ones.

Thankfully, there are also many runners who slow down whilst I call my dog back so we are both happy.

Shared spaces, shared responsibilities. 

Indeed. As a reasonably occasional runner I think I’ve been held up more often by loose children than I have other dogs (except where I’ve chosen to stop and pet the latter). But I don’t think I’ve ever felt any rage towards the useless parents of said children.. 

I have no problem with responsible owners and dogs under control, but I am now pig sick with out of control dogs and owners that are in denial about them.

Couple of years ago I was attacked and bitten by a German shepard, I was standing talking to the owner outside her house (I was on a walk), dog was a problem in the village but died a few weeks ago.

This week they have a new German shepard and it is being paraded around village and first day they have it - up to the pub - which I think is an irresponsible start, before the dog has even settled into it's new home.

Thursday a mate of mine is talking to them and dog whilst sitting outside the pub with a pint and they claim I was never bitten, but just pawed and only had a scratch. The owner became more and more heated about "dogs rights" and dogs never being to blame etc. that he completely lost it and hit my mate in the face, I will add that the owners a big bloke and my mate is 66 year old and very shaken up by the incident.

So I am also pretty p****d off with irresponsible dog owners.

Blimey! that's right out of order. I hope someone called the police, he should be charged with assault.

Did their children ever bit you?  Are their children capable of overpowering you and biting you to death?  

Your dog, your responsibility. 

I don't know what will happen, our respective wives (bosses) are away together on a 2 day "jolly" to country file show, he needs to talk about it.

Unfortunately we live in a very small rural community where people don't want to rock the boat. Personally I think the culprit is a nasty bit of work and i have no time for him, but it is surprising what people get away with when their wife goes to church and yoga with all the other wives!

I was replying more to the inconvenience of getting a good time on a run. But as you ask I did once get sent flying by a child on a bike, got some rather nasty grazes on my knees and elbows! Could have easily sprained or broken something if I was elderly yada yada yada...

I tried this recently. Got bitten by the dog, verbally abused by its owner and then physically threatened by the owner's partner. I would not recommend this technique!

Between humans, yes. Any human > your dog. Dog owners: control your f*cking dog. If you're expecting humans to adapt their behaviour because you have a furry friend, your dog needs better training, a shorter lead, or a muzzle.

So far I have been bitten on the ankle the back of my leg and hand whilst running. I have also been knocked off my Mountain bike and have had clothing ripped and clicked by dogs jumping up. Once I was tripped over by an extendable dog lead where a dog suddenly changed direction as I was running past. When I run I try to push myself to the limit and having to stop is a real pain when I'm pushing for a good time. I am not afraid of dogs and have owned dogs in the past and have a pretty good understanding of how to control them. Its the owners slug like reactions and lack of concern that bother me the most. Some of these people are so slovenly I sometimes wonder how they can even be bothered to breath and they are so unaware of their surroundings that in their zombie like state a nuclear bomb could go off and they wouldn't notice it. My mind is drawn to the idea of carrying a cattle prod (for the owner not the dog) just to wake them up. I try and run in places and at times to minimise my exposure to dog walkers but every time I have been out this week something has happened hence the thread. Unfortunately it seems to be a country wide problem.

Unfortunately, many dog owners have even fewer brain cells than their dogs.

My attitude is very simple.

If I'm out and about, and without any provocation I get attacked by a dog, I will immediately report the incident to the police, and demand the dog is put down.

If you can't control your dog, then it should never leave the confines of your house and garden.

And yes, I would apply exactly that attitude if either of our dogs behaved in that way.

We have two Great Danes, and Mrs G is petite and about 5'4", yet she can control both with just the click of her fingers, because they've been trained that way since they were puppies.

There are simply too many brainless and irresponsible dog owners out there, who shouldn't even be left in charge of a tin of Pedigree Chum!

The owner became more and more heated about "dogs rights" and dogs never being to blame etc. 

Owners' responsibilities, not dogs' rights, surely?

'Under control' is a concept that is widely misunderstood by dog walkers: a dog can be under control whilst off the lead (seemingly rare) but, conversely and importantly, a dog can be out of control/uncontrolled whilst on the lead e.g. big mutt dragging small owner over to 'just say hello' (the dog, that is).

Just because the owner loves the dog and finds it adorable doesn't mean that anybody else has to.

I give up, your run is clearly much more important than my dog walk. 

My view would be that his run and your walk have equal validity. If you choose to bring a dog with you then it is your responsibility to ensure your dog does not diminish the recreational experience of others users of the space.

Neither activity is more important, but look closely at the law on dogs being dangerously out of control and you will see where the key responsibilities lie.

I think you will find, under the law, that the responsibility goes far beyond that.

There you go.

I have been bitten 3 times in the 6 years we have been here, twice out walking and once running.

On the run I saw a man with 3 collies off lead in next paddock, so I stopped my side of the fence and gate for him to put them under control, on a lead. There was much charging about and dogs paid him little attention, I waited patiently. Suddenly one collie ran to the fence, stuck its head through and bit me!

"Your dog has just bitten me"

"No it hasn't"

"What are these teeth marks and blood on my leg"

" My dog didn't do that".

And so on, no apologies. Is it any surprise some of us are so sensitive about dogs.

There are far too many dogs about with too many incompetent owners. Dogs have just become fashion accessories for many in urban/ suburban areas.

One doesn't need to be running or cycling to attract these pests. it pisses me off no end to be told that a dog is being playful when it bounds towards me. If I hurtled towards a dog owner at high speed with my teeth bared, I am sure I would be perceived as a menace.

One other facet of this issue is the professional dog walkers with up to about 10 random animals frequently off the lead.  I recently stopped my bike when confronted with such a posse on a disused railway line. The dogs showed no sign of moving but when I tried to issue a command for them to shift, I was rebuked for not being very friendly. I retorted that it was not very friendly to assume that her dogs could monopolise the shared space. Most walkers with dogs call their dogs in and I am happy to thank them for being considerate.

I have very mixed views on the whole topic.

I am a runner, I don’t like dogs and many dogs scare me.

I am also a parent to children who are afraid of dogs and I don’t want them growing up with a phobia.

I am also Event Director of my local parkrun where we have to have a strong cooperation with dog walkers in the interests of everyone.

Sadly nothing I say or do will prevent some dog owners from believing that they can do whatever they like.  Those people talking about the rights of their dogs are talking nonsense.  The right to safety trumps it, every time.

On my many runs I have been bitten, chased, snarled at, snapped at and threatened by dogs.  And bugger me but don’t the owners just go ahead and react in one of two ways:

1. Never done that before.

2. It’s your fault for making my dog feel threatened.

Well hey, here’s the law:

“Dogs dangerously out of control (Section 3 Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 UK) Under section 3 of the Dangerous Dogs Act an owner, or a person in charge of a dog, commits an offence if the dog causes reasonable apprehension to a person that they will be injured, whether or not they actually are injured.”

Some really key points in there which may surprise many people. Basically, if you let your dog runs snarling up to a runner, then it is dangerously out of control, even if no bite occurs.  Dog owners need to stop treating their animals like babies/children/toys/accessories/other adults and treat them as animals.

Now, to counter this, I can say that there are LOTS of responsible dog owners.  Out running not so long ago I saw a dog and owner in the distance.  He became aware of me, called his dog to heel, the dog obeyed and no lead was required.  I ran past with a genuine and cheery “thank you” and he smiled.  All done in a few seconds and all without any shouting, snarling, restraint etc.  We got on with our respective pastimes without any issues.

It can be done.

Reminds me of when I came nose to nose with a dog in a narrow squeezer style....

I screamed, turned round and ran one way. Poor dog terrified out of its skin by my scream in its face turned tail in opposite direction.

Parents managed to drag me through style once reasured dog was on a lead and well out of the way. Dog was still being comforted when we crossed into the next field and refusing to go anywhere near the nasty noisy scary wall - oops! 

I forgot the dog walkers, in Holland 18 Months ago visiting nephew (winter) and had a walk on a beach. Dog walker with 15+ pooches all running about and one comes over and bites me.

So not only a UK problem, but sadly many of us almost accept it as a hazard of walking in the park, country, street. It should not be like this.

I do ride with a CO2 cylinder in my pocket for inflating tyres quickly and I wouldn't hesitate to use it if I was being bothered by a dog; you just flick off the safety catch and squeeze the trigger. There are also occasionally stories of cyclists being mugged for their bikes so again, a blast in the face of a mugger might give you time to get away.

The local wood where I walk my dog is also a bridal way, I often wonder if the runners and mountain bikers (although they are generally very courteous) would approach a horse and rider in the same manner they do dogs and their owners. I imagine they would only do it once!!

These places are multi use spaces, every one needs to be mindful of each other. I will recall my dog and put him on lead if I am aware of a runner approaching and given reasonable time to do so. But running up behind us unannounced doesn't allow for that.

The local wood where I walk my dog is also a bridal way ........ where brides walk down the aisle?

In my defense I am typing on my phone whilst breastfeeding my daughter.

When I was a runner I found that going straight for them and kicking at their heads worked.

They don't like a full-blooded kick on the nose ! (and the fact that you attack them completely confuses them, even if you don't actually land a hit).

And my response to their owners if they got upset was that I'd give them a choice between the same treatment or being arrested for their dangerous dog which I'd make sure was put down.

I like dogs, but the dangerous ones are a menace to the life of anyone unable to fight them off - children for example.

And to those who put the rights of dogs and dog owners above those of human beings - get stuffed (or better still get bitten !)

I have had the odd debate with dog owners on a run. Once a dog started running with me and followed me for about 2 miles. On my way back (in and out), the dog owner "told me off" for not stopping, as he couldn't keep up with his dog. Generally, people apologise when their dogs cause me to stop or act threateningly in any way. However, as with everything in life,  you there is a certain percentage of arseholes. 

My main worry here (rural Spain) are large dogs left abandoned and semi-wild packs of dogs you meet in the middle of nowhere. 

My standard way of reacting when coming up to a dog on a run depends on if I can see an owner nearby. If the owner is there, I try to make some noise well in advance. This usually means that the dog does not get startled by a sudden moving object and that the owner has time to make sure the dog is under control. If I don't see an owner nearby I stop, pick up a stone or stick and walk past slowly. If possible I pass leaving as much space as possible and try to act as if I didn't even see the dog. 

I have not been bitten yet. The scariest incident was when a hunting dog jumped out of the bushes with no time to react. The hunter took about 5 minutes to catch up. 

This is a good thing to bear in mind, especially for us runners. Yes, in a perfect world all dog owners would keep their dogs under control, but this doesn't happen so we'll have to be pragmatic.

Most dogs react to a runner because a fast moving creature is seen as either prey or a threat and either way instinct kicks in, they get excited and it's hard to dial this down once it starts. 

I live in a tiny village in the French alps and nobody here controls their dog - but then the vast majority of people are inbred halfwits. It boils my piss but there's not much I can do. We are the only people in the area who only ever let their two dogs out when they're accompanied by us (and nearly always on a lead) where everyone else just lets them roam and shit everywhere. That's not the dog's fault though.

We went on a hike with some friends last week up a local mountain and dogs are now forbidden on the sheep pastures, even on leads because of the protection 'patou' dogs that are being used to protect the sheep from wolves. So we left our two behind after walking them separately.

We came across the flock halfway through the walk and the 10 dogs guarding them reacted to us. We all simply put down trekking poles or anything else that might scare a dog, and let these terrifying, 40kg creatures come barking and snarling towards us. Avoiding eye contact, body posture open but not too submissive. It was quite nervy, even when we saw the shepherd in the distance, but a minute after the dogs had approached us, given us all a good sniff and determined we weren't a threat, they left us alone and started lying down relaxing in the sun.

The shepherd came along and we ended up having a 90 minute chat about all sorts of things but one thing he said was that 80% of the time hikers react badly, wielding sticks or stones and this understandably scares the dogs.

On runs with normal dogs I take the same approach. Stop, so the dog doesn't get more excited by the running, then just let it check you out.

One of our dogs is very reactive to other people (and especially runners) and this is born from fear since he was severely maltreated before we got him from a rescue centre and his first reaction in a new situation is a fear response. The sooner we can keep him calm the sooner he is fine but it's a lot easier to do that when whoever you meet on a hike/walk thinks along the same lines and adopts some of the tactics mentioned above.

Dogs reflect their owners - they look to them all the time for cues on how to behave. The amount of times you hear someone say "my dog didn't like that person" - the dog doesn't have a clue, its just reacting to the subtle cues coming from the owner. And many people are idiots, and they have dogs - so our encounters with these dogs are often going to be unfortunate.

I think the issue is that most people could not care if the dog is doing backflips and talking mandarin chinese, so long as it stays away from them and takes its poo home.

What I find funny on this one is that almost no dog in Milton Keynes ever goes for cyclists or runners.  This I put down to the fact that MK dogs get walked on the Redways and Leisure Paths on which running and cycling also takes place (and is allowed) so from an early age they are used to both.

What this does prove is that dogs can effectively (by way of familiarisation) be trained not to attack runners and cyclists.  So what's the excuse elsewhere?

(for the unfamilar, Redways are sort of Dutch style red tarmac shared use cycle and pedestrian paths intended to be used like country lanes without traffic, i.e. cycle on the left, walk on the right, neither should block the other by e.g. walking or cycling several abreast.  Leisure paths are narrower gravel tracks on which cycling is permitted but pedestrians have priority)

Dogs in the countryside can be trained not to chase sheep and other livestock, unfortunately most owners cannot be arsed to train them. 

Same principal?

Yet the only time I've been bitten is when I stopped and turned around.

I despise dogs and don't understand why anybody needs one, other than working dogs. That said, I live in a democracy and one of the downsides of that is that people are allowed to have dogs. I accept that, I get irritated by the amount of dog shit I step in, but I accept that some people feel the need to keep a carnivorous, hunting animal in their house and be forced to feed it, walk it and pick up it's shit. But what I can't accept is the attitude that we should all love dogs, that we should love them so much that we must all possess degrees in pooch psychology and know the intricate, secret, body language handshakes to turn them from aggressive, evil thugs into submissive, cuddly furballs.

There is no right to walk dogs wherever you like with no need for training or consideration for others. Dog walkers where I live have made most local beauty spots into enclaves of barking and faeces, spoilt for everyone else, particularly families with children who like to stray off the path. It is antisocial behaviour by any definition, but tolerated for some bizarre reason. Just like the thousands of dogs across the country incessantly barking through the night.

My contempt has been nurtured by decades of runs spoilt by dog owners, by being bitten and by being abused.

I now respond to any aggression from a dog by barking at the owner. I don't know why, I think I read about someone else doing it. Maybe even on here. It makes me laugh and turns a negative experience into a positive one, for me. 

I like dogs, but I get where you're coming from. There's definitely this attitude, especially in the countryside, that you're supposed to love dogs. Domestic dogs are, genetically speaking, virtually identical to wild wolves, even those ridiculous toy dogs that people carry around in handbags. The idea that these animals are ever really "under control" is a delusion, as any number of the anecdotes above will testify to.

You're too self restrained/polite. Which is a credit to you.

Erm, you having your dog off it's lead doesn't allow you respond in time, you mean? I don't have a dog, but I look after a friend's fairly frequently, and if I was walking her where joggers and cyclists could approach me from behind unannounced, I'd have her on the lead. She's only off her lead when I can see where she's likely to be running to, and see anybody approaching, so that I can react to what is happening and call her, in case a person has a fear of dogs, or the other person's dog isn't a harmless one and could bite Tess.

Edit: She's a harmless dog anyway, but if she wasn't and reacted badly towards a jogger running past me from behind, it'd be entirely my own fault in having lax dog control. 

Yes, that was my point.  Dogs are very trainable by their nature (which is why they are such useful working animals); sadly some owners prefer to make excuses for them.

I had a very similar experience in the Algarve this summer when out running. Had to completely change my return route back to avoid a couple of dogs. 

The point is -two humans passing each other.  one walking and one running present very little obstacle to each other.  One human plus a dog on a lead combined taking. up all the path/footpath are an inconvenience to the other human and therefore should yield.

Generally as a runner you can tell by the breed of the dog if it will be playful when it runs after you -i.e. spaniel/collie.  When an owner is apologetic I am polite, if they are not or think it is funny when the dog goes for you I will tell them where to go.

It is also a criminal offense if a dog is out of control and threatening.  Owners should remember this.

It also seems like more and more people see dogs as a life accessory these days and need to own one regardless of living in a flat with no garden or the owners working full time.  That is part of the issue as dogs are neglected and thus go a bit mental

And again in MK they do - even in the rough estates.  The only time I've had issues is with homeless people, whose attitude often differs for quite understandable reasons.

Why is the attitude so different?  OK, it's quite a middle class place generally, but it does have its roughish estates and I've cycled and run through several of them on many occasions (one is the main route from my house to the climbing wall) and near enough never have issues.

So the old dear ambling along with their dog should move sharply out the way when suddenly confronted with a charging runner fixated on their Strava time? 

Melodrama 

The old dear shouldn't be walking an animal with sharp (and probably very manky) teeth over which she has no control that, quite apart from the damage (both physical and mental) that it could do to an adult, could end up savaging, maiming, and even killing a young child.

The old dear also shouldn't have a dog quite possibly on an extending lead that makes the entire pavement and half the road a no-go area for anyone else.

And if anything like the first paragraph above occurred, then I'd hope the courts would ignore her being an "old dear" and treat her like the dangerous tw*t she was and not only ban her for life from keeping animals, but put her inside - someone out with a dangerous dog is a darn sight more dangerous to the population at large than anything the prosecution is currently claiming about a certain Mr. Stokes in Bristol.

Now that is melodramatic! and nothing to do with the point I was making.

Countering melodrama with shrieking hysteria. Interesting tactic!

Edit:

At Christmas I'm visiting the UK for the first time in a few years. Judging by the hysteria on this thread it sounds like it's literally gone to the dogs.

I'd keep well clear. There's pitbulls on mopeds chucking acid at kiddies. It's a warzone out there.

I've never been bitten by a child while out running, I have by dogs on 2 separate occasions.

I have been ran over by a child, but never bitten. 

Exactly. People, especially little fcukers, have either deliberately or accidentally got in my way when running more often than dogs.

Also been pelted with an egg and have been deliberately tripped. Not by a dog on either occasion. 

Not to mention any verbals, I think I prefer a barking dog to some cnut shouting something "funny".

Yeah. In my younger running days some cheeky little fecker sang the theme tune to the 6 million dollar man.  ‘Der der der der der der der der de de, we can rebuild him’

You need to take my dog running with you guarantee dogs  would give you a wide berth I'm never bothered by dogs . My little pit cross puts fear of God into other dogs I take mine running all time round always on lead . If I see a dog approaching I ask owner put it on a lead if they come same old crap  mines ok I just say ok if your dog comes near mine it will get hold of it and you won't get it off that usually does the trick . And I always say  it's not a dangerous dog it's a friendly dog minding its own business out running with its responsible owner just defending its self against a dog that has just ran up to us for no reason other than its owner hasn't got there dog under control

I am in general in agreement with you. A good attitude helps in most situations. But seriously a dog that chases after runners or cyclists or cars is a nusance. Shared spaces shared responsibilities cuts both ways. When people are out for a run it is their responsibility to not run in fornt of traffic, push people out of the way and other anti-social activities. However they shouldn't feel obliged to slow down and pat every dog they come across just to avoid getting nipped. Many people are scared of dogs and small children are quite likely to run from a dog. It is the responsibility of the owner to control the dog by either keepng it on a lead or only letting it off the lead in a suitable area if it is properly trained.

https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public

Current legislation can impose a prison sentence of 14 years if your dog kills someone, 5 years if it injures someone and 3 years if it kills an assistance dog.

It is not ok to tell someone else to modify their law abiding behaviour because you can not control your dog.

As an aside out of control dogs are not as bad as they used to be. Back in the 70's it was damn near impossible to walk around without being attacked by stray dogs, farm dogs running loose and mad owners with mental dogs. And by attacked I mean bitten.

Sorry dave couldn't agree less with you. There's no such thing as bad dogs. Just bad owners. If a dog attacks anyone, owner should be taken to court, end of. 

Not quite 'end of' - the dog should be put down

Of course there are bad dogs. Some owners are better at controlling bad dogs and others actively encourage negative character traits, but that is not the same as saying there's no such thing as bad dogs!

I tend to have more issues with dogs on leads than anything. Specifically dogs, or sometimes multiple dogs attached to long trip wires.

I was out yesterday walking my two dogs. Both friendly and have never gone for anybody or anything. The newer one is a Rottweiler cross with the potential to look intimidating, and sometimes growls if scared or encountering something new. We've only had her a couple of months and are still figuring her out.

Guy comes walking up the (narrow, woodland) path towards us using two walking poles which Rotty has not seen before. I can see her body language change to 'alert' and so I move close to her. As he approaches we exchange cheery hellos, but as he passes Rotty gives a short growl. I grab her harness and give a firm 'NO!'.

Guy walks off muttering and once he's further up the path he turns around and yells something incomprehensible.

Who's the asshole?

I got chatting to a slightly odd/spaced out American woman at the anti_Trump march in Edinburgh recently, her two dogs being the subject, one a puppy, one full grown. Both looked like classic pitbulls, a little bigger and more athletic than a staffy. Both were very friendly and affectionate. She said they were rescued from the streets of Kansas City and were boxer/heeler crosses.

All well and good until a small dumpy staffy (on a lead) decided to approach in a friendly manner. Both Kansas dogs attacked it viciously. This was not rough play or a bit of growly apprehension, this was a full on attack. The woman seemed bewildered and it only ended by the owner risking being bitten by picking up his staffy and walking off. Immediately after this a greyhound poked its long nose in and both dogs attacked it again. The woman sort of fell over but she had no influence over her dogs, in fact she lost the lead of the puppy, which tore into the greyhound's flanks. I got its lead and dragged it off. The cops had stern words with the woman (they'd seen both attacks) and told her to take her dogs away. She said nothing to the dogs as she walked off, they were cheerful round her like they were with strange people, she had zero control or dominance over them and I don't doubt that these dogs attack every single other dog they see.

As much as I love dogs, these two are damaged goods, not helped by a clueless owner and I wouldn't trust either of them around small children. I think the cops should have taken her details at least and checked to see if there was any history. If ever I've seen dogs that needed a trip to the vet it was those two, and I don't say that lightly because I'm a sucker for dogs. And with reference to the other dog thread, if they attacked any dog of mine like that, they'd be going into orbit via my right foot. It does make me think that owning a dog is something one should qualify for, a bit like driving or owning a firearm, and that woman was a good example of someone who shouldn't.

Man goes for a walk in the woodland and encounters a geezer with a big dangerous dog off the lead which squares up to the man frightening him.  Geezer grabs dog and starts shouting (and later admits he hasn't got the dog well trained enough to have full control of it).  Geezer wonders who the arsehole is.

His behaviour sounds very strange to me.  People can be weird, and whether the fear is rational or not they sometimes react all the more weirdly to being scared.  Adrenaline often makes the human brain go a bit wobbly.

Nobody is necessarily an 'asshole' in your story though.  He might be lovely when he isn't rightly or wrongly being frightened of somebody's dog, and an incomprehensible emotional outburst shouldn't be all that offensive to you.

There's no way to know how friendly a strange dog is at a distance, especially if they appear to be a little bit spooked.  I'm sure you'd be more willing to give a strange dog growling at you a bit the benefit of the doubt than you were the human in this story.

If I were the one passing by on a narrow woodland path, I'd be grateful to you for bringing the dog under very close control as I go by.  Hope this won't put you off doing so again in the future.

Man posts sommat online and encounters a geezer who has a pop at him for no good reason.  Each of us assumes that somebody, somewhere in all this has to be an arsehole.  We're not sure who, but it isn't us.  Welcome to UKC.

He didn't say the rotty was off the lead btw, you are just assuming that.

All fair points, except that some people have a deep seated fear of dogs, and many people are intimidated by big dogs. The rights wrongs and reasons are moot. Another example of the value of putting yourself in someone else's shoes before calling them an arsehole*.

*or "asshole" if you happen to be American.

Firstly, the dog didn't square up to anybody. She was right by my side and went still with her ears up. She was off leash but never more than a few inches from me, and I had a firm hold of her harness as the man passed. Neither did I shout, that's another thing you have invented. All that hapened was a short low growl.

His yelling at us from the path seemed kind of tw*ttish. But being a reflective soul, I'm interested to hear others opinions. Thanks for the input, if not the embellishment.

Perhaps I should have been clearer...it's a genuine question, not rhetorical. I wasn't calling the other guy an ass/arse-hole. Actually interested in other people's input.

PS Brit in the US...

I wouldn't like a dog, being held but not on a lead growling at me on a narrow path.

I think Stuart's reply to me might actually have been intended as a reply to you, and there is a possible genuine answer there too.  The guy was probably scared.  If he has a phobia about dogs he might have been absolutely terrified, especially if your rotty was off the lead when he saw it.  He might have thought it was about to go for him even if it was obvious to you that it wasn't.

I've experienced a couple of moments of genuine terror, and thinking back I think I was silent and focussed during the few seconds I actually thought I was about to be killed and then blurted out some incoherent sweary things as I got all wobbly and emotional immediately after the danger had passed and the tension released. 

In one case a car pulled across in front of me as I was riding my motorbike, I ended up stopped at the side of the road shaking like a leaf and having a good swear.  The driver of the car understandably thought I was ranting at him, but I really wasn't.  It was a few seconds before I got it together enough to have a rational conversation with him (he turned out to be a very decent guy) and a good ten minutes after that before the shakes subsided enough that I was fit to carry on riding.

It's all about perception - if the dog growls and its heckles are up the passer-by may well feel that the dog is squaring up to have ago and without a lead on how was he to know the (a) the dog was safe (b) that you had control and (c) you weren't the sort of pyscho dog owner that gets a kick out of scaring people and your firm "NO!" is easily someone else's yell. 

It wasn't the passer-by's obligation not to have poles and he didn't have a list of all the things that were unfamiliar to your particular dog. Your dog clearly scared the passer-by, he certainly overreacted in your opinion, armed with a lot of knowledge about the situation that he didn't have. 

Did he overreacted from his point of view? I'm not sure. Perhaps, you should have the dog on a lead until you've figured her out.

I note from here, and loads of other similar posts, person gets bit, dog owner is either surprised or says "its just being friendly" or says "it was your fault for [wearing a baseball cap | carrying poles | stopping | carrying on | going fast | going slow | surprising the dog | not surprising the dog etc]".

Both of you, in sympathy.

Except for the 'asshole' thing.  

Back onto dogs, bearing in mind the time and I'm just in having had a few sherries...

Background: I grew up with big dogs, and am very comfortable with big scary looking dogs, and as an only child growing up with a dog as a sibling, I get on with dogs that don't like other people. I can make all the noises and do the body language thing, without thinking about it. I have a profound bond with dogs, especially big daft ones.

Anectode: during a traverse of the GR20 I had cause to detour off to Corte. The only place I could get to stay was a house beyond the street lights. As I crunched up the gravel drive under a too-heavy pack and very sore feet (cause of detour) I saw what looked like one of the dogs off Ghostbusters2 by the front door. I hoped it was a statue. It wasn't. It stood up, bounded towards me, gave a very deep growly "Rrwhuffff" and jumped up on my shoulders (faces level, and I'm 6'2"), grabbed my arm (gently) in its jaws and dragged me to ground, where it then rolled on its back demanding a belly rub. Phew. 80kg and 18month old Cane Corso. I'd never heard of them before. Google it and imagine it in brindle. It was like King Kong in dog form. When it ran towards me I thought that my tea was oot. Massive soft shite, loved it to bits and enjoyed playing with it the next morning, but I can easily see where it would be extremely scary for anyone not comfortable around big dogs.

No no. Bad dogs are made from humans that shouldn't have dogs. Your view of "there is bad dogs" come from some dogs either having the most basic of animal instinct - same as any wild animal - or the fact that they have been encouraged to be bad by humans. Dogs are simple creatures. I'm saying this as someone who has grown up with dogs all my life in different contexts and also been on the receiving end of dogs who have been made bad. It's not a dogs fault if a human is too ignorant and up his own ass to understand the characteristics of their nature p.s just recounted how many times I used the word dog and its quite a lot. 

Dog

I regularly carry small chunks of meat in my pouch. Depending on which training routine im conducting, they are used to make me up the pace as the neighbourhood pooches chase me through the streets and parks.

Or

They are used as a diversion tactic. Throwing the meaty jiblet one way and giving it legs the other.

I would certainly recommend both these techniques. I have found that a beef joint defrosted from Farm Foods is the best in test. The smell of rotting, sometime sketchy meat really draws them in. 

Also seems the best option pound for pound! 

Let me know how you get on..

I don't necessarily think a stick is a good idea, some dogs will back off, others will see it as an increased threat and be far more likely to go for you.  My rescue dog was terrified of men with sticks (for good reason, he was rescued from being beaten regularly) .  His reaction to fear was generally aggression in the hope of frightening the threat away.  I didn't let him loose anywhere near strange people or other dogs, so he was under control, but then I'm more responsible than the average dog owner it seems.  

I used to arm myself with a stout stick when passing mountain farms when walking in the Spanish Sierras where there are usually huge very aggressive "sheep dogs" used to protect the flocks from wolves. They were generally chained up, but at times I was menaced by loose ones. The stick certainly deterred them, and the one time one actually tried to bite he went for the stick rather than me.

You sound a very responsible dog owner. I wish more were like you.

So if one is menaced by large dogs, off a leash, snarling at you, what is the best thing to do if the aim is to pass by unharmed as quickly as  possible? Call for the owner and wait in hope, or what?

Edit: To remove at least some of the extraneous commas that I always seem to include when writing at speed, and to attempt to spell marsbar correctly, in which endeavour I am thwarted by the UKC editor!

One thing I have found with meeting strange loose dogs is that it's best to try and avoid making eye contact with them. They seem to interpret you staring at them as an aggressive challenge. Often if you turn away and ignore them they will loose interest.

Doesn't always work though

Fair enough.  We all have different experiences.  

I'm really not sure.  It hasn't really happened to me.  I was told as a child when visiting someone with trained German Shepherd guard dogs to just stand still and keep arms still and down.  But I suspect the problem dogs are actually the untrained ones.  

Thanks. I've had this problem at least three times this year while out running, which I do most days, as well as numerous other occasions where dogs have come up to me with I do not know what intent, strained on a leash to get at me or just got in the way.

In my experience, dog owners are likely to remonstrate if you ask them pointedly, but politely,  to get their dog off you and keep their hobby to themselves. It is a pain in the arse.