UKH

DON'T BOOK THIS GUIDE:

Pierre Schmidt

My wife an I had a terrifying experience in Chamonix last week.

We were climbing on L'Index in the Aiguilles Rouges. Pierre Schmidt, the 'guide', was behind us with a group of clients he was dragging up the mountain. While I was still climbing, and only unprotected by our belay, he approached our belay. Without saying anything he took off our sling – the only anchor that was protecting me and my wife – from a spike to put his on underneath. It would have been easy for him to put his sling over another spike or even threading it through ours, put it's absolutely unacceptable to take off our only protection. When I told him that be should not be touching our gear, he replied several times with "I know what I am doing; I am a guide". Still not ok with that we continued arguing and to stop us from climbing further he put another sling on top of ours so we had to wait for him and his group to pass us. I never felt the frightened and angry at the same time. I was utterly shocked by his dangerous, reckless and arrogant behaviour. I really hope this was a rare exception and other guides in Cham know how to be safe in the mountains.

DON'T BOOK PIERRE SCHMIDT!!!

Sorry to hear about your bad experience Lukas, and information like this is worth sharing, but I'd check your legal situation about posting something like this.

Might be fine, in which case terrific, but a vague alarm bell is ringing somewhere in the back of my mind.  Perhaps someone familiar with such things could advise.  I think the relevant bit is that you're making a recommendation on an observation of how this guide's behaviour impacted on you when you weren't the one who had paid for his services. 

It does sound like he's someone to whom best practice for the safety of everyone on a route comes second to speed of ascent, and he won't be the only such guide to operate that way, but I think making a recommendation on a widely-read public forum that could have a negative experience on his business when you personally have never paid for his skills puts you on a dodgy bit of legal ground.

Advice on this point from others most welcome!

T.

Disgusting!  When i climbed mont blanc the other year i saw a guide dragging clients up with appalling practises.  people think that just because their guides they know best! I would never use them. Im affraid id have lost it completely if it was me, i can feel my adrenaline pumping just thinking about it!

If it's true he's dismantling others belays then I would expect you get to say whatever you want. You could argue his guiding puts others at risks (if what's stated is true) so by not booking his services you are keeping other people on the mountain safe... 

Indeed.  But common sense and the common good are frequently at odds with the letter of the law.  Best to check to avoid getting into bother.

T.

As long as Loukas is telling the truth then I think he’s ok, it’s like a trip advisor review you can say bad things about a hotel or whatever, as long as you’re not making it up. The guide also has the opportunity of a reply as this is an open forum. 

As with everything there’s two sides to the story and I’d be interested to hear the guides perspective of the incident, as I don’t know either of the protagonists and the guide may have a perfectly reasonable rebuttal.

Carabiner knuckleduster, who's going to care

I believe standard procedure in this sort of situation is to let the guide past and then, when he is some way above, clove hitch his rope to a peg. And then maybe video what happens next and provide a link so we can all have a good laugh.

Thanks all for the legal advice/comments. There was another german/ dutch team climbing in front of us who can confirm what happened.

@Robert Durran this actually crossed my mind as well when he was abseiling.

presumably his company/employer has a social media presence.

you should put your experience with their guide on their review page. it's gonna hurt them more than a post on UKC

They have priority as it is their Valley, same on the Matterhorn, working guides rule. Besides  you are over reacting, will take barely  a second to unclip reclip a sling, normal practice on crowded routes. 

I dont think hes over reacting however i suppose the guide could at least tell them thats the plan/ask if they wouldnt mind.

So it would be ok for me to do similar to a French climber in, say, Glencoe? Of course not. It is dangerous, arrogant, utterly unacceptable behaviour.

But, sadly, it has been, is, and shall remain the norm.  The excuse that used to be given to justify Chamonix valley guides barging others out of the way and behaving like they, their runners and their clients had priority over everyone else was that if they got the early morning client back to the valley quickly, then they could take another client out afterwards.  I always thought that excuse dubious, but perhaps I'm just a cynical old badger.  Has anyone ever come across such a second client of the day, or been one themselves?

T. 

As an alternative to Robert's 'standard method' for dealing with such incidents I'd also like to offer, throwing rocks at his clients whilst he continues to use your kit.

" that if they got the early morning client back to the valley quickly, then they could take another client out afterwards. "

Don't know about Chamonix, but this is happening for sure at Grossglockner, and the very same arrogance of carelessly removing your protection without a word. It's business for them, and I don't see how that justifies the behavior.

It's funny how the snowflakes of UKC are in denial about this practice, i have seen it loads, i don't agree with it, it just happens.

I'm only stating facts, i don't condone this behaviour.

Don't think anyone's in denial about it, quite the reverse.  It's a PITA piece of poor practice that places a guide's needs above those of others on a route, placing them in a position of greater risk as a consequence.

You, me, so many others have experienced this, grumbled and climbed on. But I can understand someone experiencing it for the first time wanting to vent about it.

T.

Rather than rant at me, why don't you write a strongly worded letter to the compagnie des guides Chamonix, don't think they will give a shit though, but if it makes you feel better.

So we're in agreement that it's not good, but, whereas you seem to accept it, many of us do not. Indeed I think that those who make a living out of the mountains should be pretty humble about it and , if anything, give precedence those who do not.

I don't accept it , i'm playing Devils advocate, pointing out that it is common practice, so what do you intend to do about it? apart from attack me for pointing out the obvious.

Sorry, I may have misinterpreted your: "They have priority as it is their Valley".

Make a habit of not accepting such behaviour. Wait until the guide has climbed on a little way, then clove hitch his rope to a suitable runner.

Cool story but his customers are never going to read it here other than by random googling.  To hurt these guys' brand and get the message across to those that matter (people who would ever pay him) you need to get to their social media profiles and google reviews etc. mention some key words like "inconsiderate and completely unprofessional", "dangerous behaviour", "wilfull sabotage" and even "attempted murder".

Seems his website is http://www.fitclimb.com/profiles/blogs/chamonixmontblancguides-com

If anyone feels strongly they could register & leave a comment

The UIAGM is an official, legally recognised body. If you put in a formal complaint they would be bound to take it seriously.

It's does happen quite often - although I wouldn't say it's universal.

But there's a polite courteous way to do it, and there's a rude arrogant way.

Unfortunately, like any profession, there are always going to be jerks. 

I am surprised though, that Alan hasn't pulled this thread on the grounds of potential litigation?

I m puzzled as to why your post has reviewed so many dislikes. I to think the OP may regret posting this on a public forum . whatever the rights and wrongs of this , as you also say , there is often no common sense in the law . People who don't know this are best advised not to find out the hard way .

Im  willing to bet that lots of people reading this have had similar experiences in the chamonix valley and other Venues popular for guided ascents. I think one of mine may well have been on the index and have been very similar , buts it's so long ago I m not sure. Wouldn't it be best to accept that the local ethic is very different to the British on and try to live with it ? I think I'm going to struggle to put this into words but I'll try . I go climbing to enjoy myself / have a great day out etc and definitly not to get into arguments / fights . So I know that if I'm climbing a trade route in the alps there is good chance a guide/ client party  may catch me up and will expect to pass me . They may well be prePred act in way that I find unsafe to pass me ( they will clearly not think so) . So when I see that this is going  to happen I will try my best to keep myself and my partner safe while trying to let the guide pass . " you are guide and I'm happy for you to pass provided you act reasonably and safely " . This way I try to avoid all the aggro mentioned above.  I suppose I'm agreeing with fergal .  This has been happening for years and will continue to do so .  Why not try to avoid it ? 

Unfortunately this does happen in Cham and elsewhere - not all guides by any means, but a few will basically behave like they own the mountain and expect you to give way or compromise your climb in some way at all times. They treat it like a business which they own, which to some extent it is, although this is not a justification. Last week I had one throw an abseil rope on my head - he claimed accidentally after I made it clear I was going to wait and confront him. I suspect though he thought it would be worth giving us a little encouragement to move faster. Unfortunately I do also think it sometimes partly relates to the fact you are English too and the instant assumptions, I admit not always unfounded, that some French guides can make around that fact (how fast you might move, level of competency etc). Happily it is the minority and if you act in a sensible and respectful way, my experience is that people trying to throw their weight around generally react positively and all is well. After all, a shared love of the mountains and wish to enjoy them is what brings all of us there at some point, even if it has become a business for some. You can usually work with that to fix disagreement quickly in my experience. For what it is worth, I do also think you are absolutely entitled to publicly comment on what are clearly dangerous practices that fall below the standard of a mountain professional and I would be doing so myself.

Sheesh, nowt so queer as folk and all.  

T.

What's the difference between god and a guide ?

God doesn't think he's a guide!

I had similar experiences in the dolomites.  On one route I let a team of speedy Germans go ahead of me,  I wasn't particularly slow but they seemed efficient so didn't see any problems that might slow us down,  I was wrong,  we were much faster ! Anyway waiting for the Germans to clear the belay a guide pranced on up did something similar and carried on up the route.  We had a bit of banter , him taking the piss out of me climbing in just shorts,  then his ropes started to pass between me and my partner,  he yelled down that the ropes would burn my skin and I should put some clothes on !  I shouted that it was okay and flashed my knife at him!  He didn't didn't take the banter quite as well as he gave it out ! 

He's German according to profile

***Klaxon***

I don't know what the basis for any litigation would be, either against the OP or against UKC. Rather the opposite if in fact the guide could be shown to have endangered life.

Otherwise, the OP has simply described an event and his opinion of the person involved. Plenty of similar things happen on UKC and litigation is rarely an issue (I bought a rucksack from brand X and I think it's rubbish, don't buy from brand X etc).

Bit of a silly response above, the OP is quite right to highlight this behaviour. There  is absolutely zero chance of any litigation coming from this for a few reasons, but mainly the fact the Guide Schmidt does not have the OP details and cannot get them from UKC in any case due to data protection.

Generally I find guides helpful, but some are quite arrogant unfortunately. I've stopped guides trying to pass me a couple of times, both  ended in altercations and badly for the guides. 

If there was an action for libel his lawyers would start by asking for a court order to compel UKC to disclose the OP's details. 

I've no idea about French law but in general f*cking with someone else's safety because you are in a hurry is going to get you in trouble with the cops and even more so if you are a 'professional' getting paid for a service.   It's analogous to a taxi driving dangerously 10 feet behind someone on the motorway flashing their lights to try and get them to move out the way and then saying it's so they can get more fares in per day.

Did you put in a complaint? to http://www.chamonix-guides.eu

I'd be very interested in their response.

Nigel, his company and the Compagnie are not the same.

And as a general point to the thread, guides do NOT have priority. The only place they do is on some lifts. 

Wrong there, the court order would need a name, profile on UKC is not a name. No name, no court order, and in any case to get a court order you would virtually to prove the whole post was made up.

Sorry, I thought Chamonix Mountain Guides was the organisation which also oversees good practice. I think a report could usefully go to whoever certificates guides or responds to complaints against guides...or the company he was working in association with.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/21/uk_defamation_law_reforms_take_eff...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwich_Pharmacal_order

As to f*cking with people's safety: Well on one hand you have the judgement of a 'punter' and on the other you have the judgement of a qualified guide.

That's actually an interesting observation.

Let's just say 'hypothetically, that the guide in question suffered both reputational damage and financial loss due the OP, and  decided to sue for 'Defamation of Character'?

Within the legal framework, who would have the most credibility, a fully qualified and experienced alpine guide, or an unqualified average Joe? 

Not casting aspertions on the OP's credibility, but it's an interesting scenario to ponder?

I don't know the answer to that, but I suspect that the guide was also have more culpability: because of his profession and expert knowledge he would be expected to know without doubt that removing someone else's belay is dangerous practice (if the removing of the belay could in any way be proven).

Possibly, but still maybe difficult to prove. And the fact that thankfully there wasn't actually any tangible ramifications, probably just muddy's the water further.

Hi Pierre!

Damn, rumbled!

Now do excuse me, I have to pack for my attempt at the traverse of Stanage tomorrow.  I'm sure that I'll be fine pulling people's runners out and taking priority when I cross routes they're doing once they learn that I'm a guide.

T.

I work for Chamonix Mont Blanc Guides, and someone thought to email me and give me his opinion about our 'behaviour', so I figured I should respond.
Pierre is a highly experienced and well-respected independent guide, and sometimes works for Chamonix Mont Blanc Guides.  Last week on the Index he was not.  So to implicate our company is inaccurate.
Secondly, I spoke to Pierre and he recalled very clearly the incident.  The climbers would not let Pierre and his clients past, a controversial situation globally, but can normally be negotiated with a degree of maturity and understanding from both parties.  So to avoid blocking the climber, Pierre put his sling under his so the climbers could move off ahead of him.  If this was a "frightening experience" for the climbers, perhaps they shouldn't have considered a very popular multi-pitch climb where they were bound to encounter others, because if anyone knows the Alps in the summer, this is what happens.   Respect invites mutual respect on the mountains, and the mountains are not for the sole use of someone who demands others to abide by his own rules, and arrogantly resorts to offensive defamation when they don't.
So the solution could be to "throw rocks at his clients" (admirable suggestion BIllhook) but I think most people would agree that a bit of mutual respect and understanding would go a long way to avoid these situations. 

I was once climbing a 2 pitch route called La Rape on the Secteurs de la Fissure in Ailefroide. A guide and client were climbing Derma Spray to the left. Both routes share the same belay/lower-off bolts. I'd reached the top and was belayed while my two seconds were simul-climbing the long 6a second pitch. The guide, now half way up his second pitch, suddenly shouted across to me, saying that he needed the belay and I must move. My French is reasonable; I fully understood what he said and I politely replied that I couldn't move as I was belaying. (He was close enough and could see what I was doing.) He repeated his request, now adding that he was a guide and he was working and so I must move. I again said no. He lost his temper and now started swearing. I reciprocated and told him to ''feck off'' in best anglo-saxon. 

He totally lost control, climbed up to me, started pushing and tried to unclip me from the bolts. I pushed back and so he started punching me. I could only spare one hand but punched him back. We scuffled and traded blows. Meanwhile both my seconds were getting rather concerned as I'd stopped taking in. His, by now totally mortified, client shouted up to him to stop his behaviour and he then apologised to me for his guide's actions. The guide calmed down slightly and stopped shouting. I was clipped into both bolts and, without asking, he then unclipped me from one so as to tie himself in. A couple of more blows were traded while this occurred.  I was, by now, in something of a state of shock and was extremely angry, so as soon as the first of my seconds was up, I sent him across to the lower-off on the adjacent route to the right. As soon as my other second was up, I followed him across. As I was climbing across, the guide continued insulting and mocking. He was wearing an Ailefroide Guides' T shirt so as soon as we'd abseiled off, we headed straight to the Bureau de Guide to make a formal complaint. 

In French I explained what had happened as best as I could but essentially I got nowhere as they first pretended not to understand and then totally refused to believe that one of their guides had behaved in such a manner and, despite my producing 2 witnesses, they basically implicated that I was at best exaggerating or at worst, simply lying. As I left the office, I could hear sniggering from behind the desk.

The following day I met the guide and the (same) client at Le Refuge du Glacier Blanc. The guide studiously avoided making eye-contact but his client came across and again apologised, repeating that he was appalled by his guide's behaviour. By way of making amends, he bought us 3 beers. 

In all my years of climbing, it's by far the worst behaviour I've ever encountered. I don't disagree with some of the sentiments expressed in the somewhat haughty response from the Chamonix Bureau de Guide and I can see that most people would agree that a bit of mutual respect and understanding would go a long way to avoid these situations. However, I still maintain that, in my experience, the Ailefroide guide showed no respect nor understanding whatsoever.

Not here he isn't.

Yes - although the default is that there is no obligation to allow anyone to pass.

Fine... apart from the bit where he takes off their sling to do so.

Well, that's bollocks, isn't it?  A busy mountain is exactly the place not to take liberties with others' belays.

Well, you've confirmed the OP's account, so not really defamation.  And the arrogance seems rather higher in french guides...

We agree!  So an apology from Pierre for his momentary lapse would have sorted it.

I don't know the OP or the Guide, but removing the only sling in a belay to put a sling underneath, doesn't sound much like 'mutual respect' to me. Just dangerous practice.

Not picking sides but I'm confused now. I googled CMBG and your site says he created CMBG. I'm guessing they were private clients that day or maybe he's no longer the owner? 

He was not there, but he can recall the incident? Have I misunderstood?

Yes I'm aware of all that, it doesn't change the facts here, the only thing UKC needs  to register is an email address, so you aren't getting anything from a court order with a UKC user name and an email address.  

It means that at the time of the incident, he wasn't working for Chamonix Mont Blanc guides.

T.

They will get the e-mail and the IP address and use that to get the ISP or e-mail provider to give them the name and address.

Ah ha! Got it, ta

My guess is that a non-climbing judge or juror would be totally horrified by this.   It is not a difficult thing to explain to a court that the sling is the only thing stopping someone falling to their death if they slip and the reason for tampering with it was because the professional guide was in a hurry.   

Look what happened to the climbing instructor in Italy convicted for failing to check quickdraws that had been assembled by a client.  That prosecutor and court would have a field day with a case where a professional actively removed someone's protection so as to increase their own earnings and persisted after being asked not to.   

Christ on a bike.  Are you an idiot?

Spot on!

Couldnt have said it any better!

I'll start off by stating that I don't think this was in anyway acceptable. 

However, this kind of behaviour whilst not common is not unheard of. It happened to me once on a route, I had a second piece of gear in the belay, so wasn't totally exposed. I was pretty pissed off but just got on with the route and put it down to experience. In my limited experience unfortunately  if you are on a busy route in the Alps you have to anticipate there may be dangerous behaviour and crowded belays so it helps everyone if you anticipate that the person following you is going need a belay and do everything you can to accommodate them. Leave them room, leave them something to belay on, point out where they can belay, or build redundancy into your belay. Chances are you will be meeting them at several belays on the route so best to get a atmosphere of "entente cordial"

For context, was your belayer on a reasonably sized ledge and had you clipped any gear (your post suggests that you were climbing but hadn't clipped anything yet but it's a bit unclear)?

are you familiar with the phrase 'guilt by association'?

since Pierre 'sometimes works for Chamonix Mont Blanc Guides', if someone was to book a climb run by your organisation, there is the possibility that Pierre would be their guide, is it not ?

I would say that to implicate your company is very accurate if you employ knobs like him

Not what the OP says - and I quote:

They can't both be right. So who's telling the truth and who's telling a lie?

Mick

I think they're describing the same thing Mick.

Putting the sling under by first lifting the existing sling.

The guide version is a little silent on how the new sling ended up under.

And we've all seen it - people quickly unclipping and reclipping a krab, or turning a belay plate over, or lifting a sling to drop another under.

Takes the blink of an eye and usually, almost always, no harm done.

We've all seen it; most of us have done it - I know I have.

The crucial difference is that every single time I have done it I have agreed it with everyone lese affected.  "Are you safe there if I need to change the belay?" or "can I tie you off a moment?"

Pierre didn't do this it seems.  He was cross perhaps, or in a hurry, or both.

But it smacks of arrogance and false sense of entitlement... and his colleague has done nothing to alleviate that.

But this isn't what the OP says:

Without saying anything he took off our sling – the only anchor that was protecting me and my wife – from a spike to put his on underneath.

Neither is it what the guide's advocate claims:

There are two crucial points:

1. Was the OP left unbelayed by the guide? (I don't care for how long. Whymper: "The negligence of a moment... the happiness of a lifetime.")

2. (As you rightly say.) Did the guide ask? And did the OP agree?

Mick

The thing is ...you don't need to remove a sling to add an extra one - you pass the new sling up though the old one and over the anchor. That way either sling can be removed without affecting the other . It's how boats share mooring bollards. 

I suppose being French mountain guides you weren't aware that you might get held up on busy routes. 

Perhaps it's your unique expertise and knowledge of the area that leads to your guides getting stuck behind queues of punters. 

Had a Swiss guide do this to me in Ailefroide a fair few years ago. Unclipped me and my partner (waiting for our leader to stop faffing at the next belay) so he could use it to bring his clients up. We were incredulous, he could have easily arranged something with the bolts without even touching our gear, let alone dismantling our belay. We got the last laugh though; on the single ab descent he somehow got stuck. We walked down the path chuckling at the French invective that was echoing from the crag.

Sinple rule: don't interfere with someone else's belay, especially without at least having a discussion with them. Burbage or the Blatiere, it doesn't matter. Their belay, their life, end of.

????

One hopes not...

T.

Well indeed, but I don't think I'd describe that as putting my sling 'under' another climber's. If anything, the second sling goes 'over'.

Absolutely agree. But surely this isn't about what one could do? Isn't it about two significantly different accounts of what actually happened? (Well they certainly seem significantly different to me. In the first account, the OP was left unbelayed; in the second account, he wasn't.)

I don't want to be tedious about this so will leave it to others to decide upon the significance or otherwise.

Mick

i would be very intrested to hear the guides  version of this. There are always more than one version of these stories and i find it depressing that the overwhelming tone of this thread takes the OP as gospel and has everybody jumping up and down baying for blood. The bare bones of the story as told may well be more or less correct but the possibilities for the guides actions being looked at with some context seem to be completely ignored by most of the replies. If I were one of the guides mates/ colleagues I would be advising  him to stay well clear but I bet that if he has seen it he is very tempted . So here are a few random thoughts. Some guides are rude and arrogant , as are some shop workers , most are not. Some guides may be rude and arrogant in the face of rudeness and arrogance , they probably should not when they are working but context might excuse it. A few small details about the story might make all the difference to how it reads . How about if the guide has taken a couple of hours to climb what has taken the OP six and is very clearly moving much faster . The guide does ask to share the belay but is not heard or misunderstood or his request is refused. The whole lifting up the sling thing could be anything from slightly concerning to very dangerous , as has been asked above , it all depends on context, size of ledge , weight difference between leader/ belayer , nature of terrain leader is now on . The leaders perception of how dangerous this was might well be very exaggerated . Sling on and off in a split second or sling cast aside for belayer to sort out ?  The British / German / who ever  perception of what is and is acceptable / is and isn't safe , is clearly different to the French / French guides .

I ve just taken a few minutes to consider why I'm bothering to reply to this and face having the above picked apart and ridiculed . The OP seems to feel justified in using this one incident to damage the reputation and therefore livelyhood of another person . To me that is very serious. The mAjority of replies seem to be happy to jump up and down and bay for blood with at pack mentality that always makes me uneasy . There is an attempt at some kind of come back and again , from somebody whose first language may well not be English , and it makes me question the OP even more .

The guide in question in the OP might be a dangerous arrogant , @£&@ . He also might not be . It saddens me that the majority of replies to this thread seem happy to unquestioningly hang another person out to dry and then , in one case " piss on his grave" , on the basis of one side of the story , which when retold with a few details / nuances changed might read very differently .

I think you're being overly generous in your reading of that second account. In the initial account, OP clearly and explicitly states that he was left unbelayed. In the second account, by the company defending themselves, they don't explicitly dispute that aspect of OP's account as far as I can see. They attempt to justify it by saying it was to allow OP to move off ahead of the guide unhindered but they don't claim that his sling was never removed by the guide.

The second account is ambiguous about how the guide's sling got underneath OP's, which to my mind is almost an admission of OP's charge. The removal of OP's sling is, as you've identified, the central point of the whole issue. If I was trying to defend the guide and I didn't believe he'd removed the sling, I would want to make that explicitly clear. If, on the other hand, I thought he might have removed the sling, I'd probably gloss over that aspect and focus on justifying why the sling went underneath, as that second account seems to do.

By my reading, the second account doesn't directly contradict OP's in any way, it just attempts to condone the guide's behaviour.

I agree. And anti-guide sentiment is a popular meme amongst Brit climbers. For my part, I've always been friendly to guides, bearing in mind the pressure they are under, and that has usually been reciprocated.

On the theme of apalling guide behaviour, here's an example from the Dent du Geant last year.

The rudest guide I've ever encountred completely blanked me at every stance, complained to his fellow guides repeatedly about how useless his client was within his client's earshot and offered him no helpful advice or encouragement even though his client was clearly bricking himself and made worse by his guides rudeness.

Belayed his client on several small stances without bothering to clip himself into anything, I know speed is safety but really, how long does it take to clip the cowstail that's already on your waist into a bolt in front of your face? Even after his client had fallen off he continued to belay him whilst unsecured.

On the descent he followed me down one of the abseils, I was off route because I've never been there before and couldn't see the next rap anchor, he should know the route but unthinkingly followed me. Going blindly over an overhang I had to use my momentum to swing in to a ledge and set up a trad belay (before making a traverse to get back to the bolt ab station). The guide followed me over but whereas I was on double 60's he was on a single 60m rope and found himself hanging free in space with less than a metre of rope left with no knots in the end at least 200m off the ground.

Now he was bricking himself and we probably saved his life by throwing spare rope out to him to tie into and hauling him in to the belay. He very grugingly offered a miserable thanks before barging past us in his unholy rush to get off the mountain.

On the same route and same day another guide came bounding down one of the abseils towards us having not bothered to equalise the ends of his ropes. We had to scream up to him to get him to stop because one of his ropes was a good 20 feet short of the belay and again he had no knots in the ends (both the above guides were getting their clients to follow them down abseils with no knots in the rope ends). We had to scream because in his arrogance he kept ignoring what we were telling him because 'he knew the mountain'. When it finally dawned on him what was happening he had to make an awkward pendulum to get to some other bolts on an adjacent line which his client was then compelled to follow all because he was in such a bloody rush he couldn't be bothered to set up his abseil properly.

When you see stuff like this you have to wonder how these clowns ever got qualified in the first place. I wouldn't trust them to guide me to the cable car station.

It's always good to consider other interpretations and possibilities but have you read the response from the guiding company that sometimes employ the guide in question?

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/expedition+alpine/dont_book_this_guide-68...

There's no way of knowing whether it's actually from a legitimate representative of the company but if it is, I think it's pretty damning. He claims to have spoken to the guide in question and doesn't really dispute any of OP's accusations. All he does is justify the guide's behaviour and say that OP should have been more accommodating. Even if OP was being a complete arse and as slow as a snail, removing his belay anchor without his consent is still completely unjustifiable in my opinion, no matter how briefly.

Fairly simple to achieve this on a spike. Yòu pass your sling from underneath,up through the situ sling and then

over the spike. Now the first sling can be lifted off the spike when required.

This was described above, but it is not clear that this is what was done. In this scenario, the second sling ends up above the first, not below it.

I know, and it's already been mentioned on this thread. If the guide had done that rather than removing the OP's sling, I would have thought his defender would have mentioned it, or at least denied the removal.

Yup...This thread is a classic example of trial by social media. One person has accused another publicly and the accused has not responded. Meanwhile, most people have jumped in with anti French guide stories 'so therefore it must be true'. 

Seems you're not the only one who thinks so...

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Chamonixmontblancguides-904873909557867/reviews...

This is another company who he seems to be involved with:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/odyssee.montagne/reviews/?ref=page_internal

Good point, however I have had many encounters with guides in the Alps, some were good experiences, some bad. In balance I would put the value of the bad experiences at 80% so unfortunately I'm already pre-disposed to expect bad behaviour and this does sound typical.

Al

No, "most people" haven't. "A few" people have. By all means criticise the phenomenon of "trial by social media", but your argument loses its teeth if you have to exaggerate.

I've had some great experiences, sharing less trod routes with guides. Even teaming up on descent, so we could leap from each other abbing off big routes, then having a brew and food in a hut after together. These were rare events. 

I've had far more experiences that involved dangerous stance practice, moving gear, barging past, knocking seconds, unnecessarily disloding rock in their haste, some very dubious long short roping on snow slopes that would involve cheese wiring other people off if they fell, general rudeness etc... All were either French or Italian guides. 

None of the horror stories on this thread about 'some' guide's practices in the French alps come as a surprise. Once qualified it seems arrogance over rules competence. 

Thank you for your input. As has been said there are always two sides to any dispute. You seem to be very keen to distance your company Chamonix Mont Blanc Guides from the actions of Pierre by saying that he was't working for your company on that day, yet you then go on to try and justify these actions? You can't have it both ways!

There was obviously an unpleasant confrontation here between the OP and Pierre but you have not addressed the fundamental assertion made by that OP that Pierre  took off the OP's belay leaving him and his wife momentarily unprotected. The is totally unacceptable and dangerous.

Yes, Pierre is as you say, an experienced guide and the whole operation was probably slickly performed taking just a few seconds.

But remember accidents can occur in a split second.

That is the whole nub of this thread, yet you skate round it. You have not denied that this happened. Instead you have attempted to shift the blame onto the OP and his wife by suggesting that they should not have been on a very popular route in mid summer where they were bound to encounter others because "this is what happens". Just because this may be common practice, including apparently, amongst guides, doesn't make it right. 

Not removing someone elses's belay is not "his own rules" it is commonly accepted by everyone as good and proper practice not to interfere with another party's belay. It's not a private "rule", it's common sense. "Mutual respect" means not putting other people in danger.

Pierre is obviously aware if this thread, so I find his failure to respond to the allegation strange, as it is his reputation which is at stake here. 

Your response has left me feeling very uneasy about the safety protocol in Chamonix Mont Blanc Guides. Your failure to condemn the practice of removing another party's belay speaks volumes. I for one, would not consider hiring your company's services, neither would I recommend anyone else to you unless I see from you a categorical condemnation of this dangerous practice.

I agree that the suggestion of "throwing rocks at his clients" made by someone on this forum was both immature and stupid, even if it was intended as a joke.

I humbly withdraw 'most people' to 'some'. 

Still trial by social media though.? It all gets a bit pitch forks and mob rule on the internet doesn't it?

It can do but mainly because it chimes with people's real life experience. There's nothing stopping anyone posting on here about how after years of Alpine climbing they've never had a bad experience with a guide but they aren't are they and that's because almost everyone who has even a modest amount of alpine experince will have encountred bad behaviour.

Perhaps this thread is over representing the worst behaviour and I wouldn't like to say what percentage of guides fall into the rude to dangerous category but its too damn many.

I think it is fairly centred around chamonix, although I note the ecrins comment further up. I think the whole chamonix, Mt blanc, fete des guides etc..  just makes them believe their own hype.

But it is the French way with certain sports. Climbing, skiing and cycling. Look at usual crowd problems on the tour for example. You couldn't imagine a French climbing being treated the same on a tower ridge gap queue, or a French runner being spat at for leading the way in the London marathon. 

Well OK, personally I haven't experienced any against myself - and I should say that I've probably spent more time in this environment ie on routes where you're likely to encounter guides, than anyone else on this thread. However, descending the Hörnli fixed ropes once, I did see a young Zermatt guide wrap his rope over my mate Brian's rope, to prevent Brian's client from descending, then proceeded to lower his own client, his rope running over Brian's. Hard to tell if the slight burning smell came from Brian's rope or Brian himself!

There are always going to be instances of encountering slower parties (or indeed faster ones, of course… ) on popular routes and clearly some compromise needs to be reached, and needs to be reached amicably. I generally reckon this should be done with a bit of humour.  If, despite it being clear that you are moving a lot faster than someone else, they don't say 'OK go on past, you are indeed a god amongst men' an approach of something like 'In your own time lads...' will generally yield better results than 'Get out of my f*ckin' way' or indeed just barging past.  Or perhaps the tried and tested (facepalm) 'And Hannibal had elephants...' This obviously applies to all climbers, not just guides. The main thing of course, is to never to do anything dangerous. If it's clear that a team is moving faster than me (a more and more frequent occurrence these days… ) I'll always step aside to let them past - there's nothing worse than having someone at your heels all the time.

However, back to the thread there do seem to be a few unanswered questions and inconsistencies:

Lukas has disappeared. But if he was still here he could tell us how he knew Pierre's name and how he knew that he worked for this particular company. He could also shed some light on whereabouts on the route it happened - whether it was on the cricket pitch at the bottom, or a smaller ledge higher up, which could have an enormous bearing on the incident.

Pierre's friend said Lukas's party wouldn't let them past which implies some sort of dialogue yet Lukas says: 'Without saying anything he took off our sling...'

Pierre's friend says 'Pierre put his sling under his so the climbers could move off ahead of him' which doesn't go well with Lukas's account that Pierre put a second sling over the top of Lukas's to prevent him and his wife from continuing. And, having put the second sling on top of Lukas's sling, how did Pierre (or Pierre's clients?) retrieve his original sling which was under Lukas's - did he lift Lukas's sling off a second time? 

Also despite Pierre owning the guiding company, that day he wasn't working for it? I asked this question higher up but I realise he could have sold it?

 >There's nothing stopping anyone posting on here about how after years of Alpine climbing they've never had a bad experience with a guide but they aren't are they and that's because almost everyone who has even a modest amount of alpine experince will have encountred bad behaviour.

Same here, never encountered bad behaviour on a route from either a guide or unguided parties, even after having spending a vast proportion of the last 9 years predominately climbing in the Chamonix valley throughout the year. My only experience of questionably behaviour has been during the ski season when powder frenzy seems to take hold & even that was not a guide.

But as mentioned, its always easier to let someone past who's obviously  faster than you especially if you can choose the time & belay in which to do so. The need to compromise & appreciate the need for speed is something that doesn't come naturally to lots of visitors until either their first thunderstorm or the first walk back down to the valley floor after missing the last lift. 

But the unwritten law surely of any crowded or busy stance is the original team have the pick of the belay anchors & the second team should ask to clip in to them or find an alternative, never mind detaching the original team from the belay anchors whilst arranging their anchors'. This has been my experience on lots of shared stances both in ascending & descending with never any deviation for perceived speed for safety or to reach the lift station.

The OP’s story sounds entirely unsurprising to me. At least the guide put the sling back on rather than casting it aside.

My story is also on L’Index - my first alpine lead and one of my first overall. As you might guess, I wasn’t very quick and a French guide caught me up as I was just below the first belay. In doing so, he unclipped my runners, let them fall to the bottom and clipped his own. I had just clipped a bolt so I hung on very tight to that as he tried to push me out of the way to climb past. He belayed higher up and as I tried to get onto a smaller ledge for my belay, I kept being pulled back down by tension in the rope - looking down, the client was hauling hand over hand up my lead rope to get past a part he found difficult.

Anecdote time.

Chamonix 1998 I was climbing with a friend and then (now ex) professional rugby player. I paused on an upper ledge (belay) to let a pair climb through. Not a word came from an ashen-faced client and the guide with blood running from his nose and a cut above the eye when I enquired (in French) as to the injury. They passed and my friend came up. “What was that about? Had they had a fall?”  “No”, was the reply. “The prick clipped my harness to belay from and I said no. He did it again and I said non. He did it a third time so I had to explain in Welsh”.

OK, here’s my two and only encounters with Chamonix Guides.

On the Pouce, seconding on a semi-hanging belay, my leader had just left the belay. Guide comes up, unclips my only krab from the only bolt, clips his in, (me and my partner were both momentarily off belay, and he was taking some of my weight), and clips mine back in to his. He could have clipped a bolt about 6 feet lower. He was bringing up two clients simultaneously. What worried me most however, was if his two clients had fallen, and my leader, there’d be five of us hanging on one bolt.

Summit block of the Plan, chimney, I’m waiting at the bottom for my leader to summit, not belayed. I suddenly find my rucksack weighs a ton because a guide is climbing up it, front pointing up it and over me. I managed to shake him off, turned and waved my axe in his face, shouting “NON!”. He waited.

Blimey. Trying to imagine how Whillans would have reacted in your place.

@jon I haven't disappeared. My reasons for posting this in this forum is because I use UKC as an informed and trusted source of information. For that reason I like to share my own experiences – good or bad. But to answer your questions, (1) I know his name because I asked his clients. Later at the parking lot I saw Pierre Schmidt again and asked him for his name in person. There was no point talking to him as he showed the same offensive attitude he showed up on the climb. A quick google search has done the rest. (2) The incident happened on the very top of the climb right before the abseil point. It wasn't a particular dangerous section but this is not the point I am trying to make. It would have been very easy to just ask or put his sling on another spike (like I did when I approached this belay and another party was there) just to mention a few options. (3) There was no dialog before he took off our sling. His first words were "I know what I am doing…" after Rebecca (my wife) asked him what he was doing. At this point I was looking back to see what was going on. We started  a discussion and I told him not to touch our gear. He repeated a few times "I know what I am doing" and because I still was not ok with that, Pierre decided to put a sling on top of ours so we would have to wait for him to pass us. He said "Now you wait!" This unprofessional and arrogant reaction and behaviour is what I condemn.

Lukas, just to be utterly clear on this critical point: he lifted your sling off and and left you and Rebecca completely without an anchor?

So where were his clients at this point? At the previous stance? If that was the case it would certainly seem unreasonable to make you wait while he brought them up and got them past you and to the abseil point and abseiled. If it had been at the bottom or halfway up it would have been more understandable though obviously still unreasonable in the manner in which he did it, but it might have explained a bit more his attitude - 'slow' team in front, I'll barge through… And the German/Dutch team, they were presumably setting up their abseil? I assume they also held him up? Strange his account didn't mention putting the second sling over yours. He said you wouldn't let him past but you say he didn't communicate. So slightly different accounts. Maybe he forgot those bits…?

Like a poster higher up, I don't think posting it on here was necessarily your best course of action. His facebook reviews might have been a better place, more direct. But I guess as his friend hasn't posted again you might not have got any more response on fb, although there is a negative review there and he did reply to that one.

Why couldn't Pierre use a long sling doubled over, that way he wouldn't have to remove (however briefly) a slower party's belay?

Meeting slow teams is all part of a guide's work, so it is up to the guide to be able to pass without comprising the slower teamst safety

I'm confused. In your OP you had noconversation and a sling being removed:

"Without saying anything he took off our sling – the only anchor that was protecting me and my wife – from a spike to put his on underneath" 

Which seems to be contradicted in both parts by: 

" We started  a discussion and I told him not to touch our gear. He repeated a few times "I know what I am doing" and because I still was not ok with that, Pierre decided to put a sling on top of ours" 

There's no contradiction there. Lukas' account is consistently that the guide removed the sling without asking permission and then they had a discussion/argument. Following the discussion, he says that the guide placed an additional sling above Lukas' to hold him up.

Fair enough - read too quickly. 

one could also comment here

https://www.facebook.com/pierre.schmidt.315

Exactly. Proving it. It may be that the guided party was a lot faster and nothing worse than not being let through. When I,ve caught guided parties they,ve always let me through and often given local knowledge about descents etc. Not so Brits. You usually have to be brusque “you don’t mind if I come through” and set off. Personally and obviously I would never take a party off belay

My experiences encountering French guides over the years, have been pretty positive, Phil - it's the Swiss ones I've had run ins with on two occasions

But there is one thing about all this which puzzles me though?

Did this guide and his client suddenly just catch up with the OP on the last pitch, or, had he been trying to pass the OP for a number of pitches?

Don't get me wrong, removing another parties gear is completely out of order, and if someone did it to me, they'd get a dry slap, but what if the guide had been trying to pass the OP repeatedly for several pitches, with the OP refusing to let him through - it does happen, I've witnessed it on more than one occasion.

Whilst nothing excuses the guides appalling behaviour regarding removal of the OP's belay, maybe a gradual build up of frustration might have triggered a momentary lapse of reason and out of character idiocy?

I'm in no way trying to defend the guides behaviour, as irrespective of frustrations, this is unacceptable behaviour from anyone, especially a guide.

However, I'm always a bit reticent of making a judgement, when I've only heard one side of a story? 

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

For someone who wasn't there you have some very strong views.

Also it's not at all clear how dangerous the situation was; there are plenty of places in the Alps where you stay roped up because it's quicker than unroping but any danger of falling is effectively zero.

It's 40 years since I did the route and I can't remember much about it, except that we found it pretty straightforward.

 It really doesnt matter how safe it was at the time of altercation. What one person see's as easy ground is challengeing for others. The op felt the need for a belay. So if the guide did take the sling off which meant they were unprotected even if it was for a split second, It should have only been done with permission from the op and his wife.

There's definitely a gap in the market for a trekking pole with a built in pitchfork.

It'd sell like hot cakes on here

Sadly I have to say I had similar experiences with guides on the Dent Blanche.

One guide clipped our only piece of gear on an exposed section (a sling on a spike) but then proceeded to climb a different line, in doing so, pulling the sling off the spike. 

Later on the route a guide (uninvited) unclipped me and my partner from our anchor whilst the third member of our party was still leading the next pitch. 

Best laugh of the day, Goucho!

Been there. Done the route. If that guide had unclipped my belay I would have decked him.

C.

It's not Thier valley any more than Stanage is my crag. They have no right to endanger others there than unclipping a belay at the to of the edge on a Saturday. If you do not have the skill to utilise other belay options, intermediary belays for example or climbing through safely then the sum of your expertise is less than that required by the MIA and you shouldn't be taking any group out. It's the absolute basics.

As the many other examples show, this is not exceptional and seems to be fairly common alpine practice. It freaks us Brits out because our practices are different.  They were developed for climbing short routes on small mountains, where time is usually not an issue.  For us, safety means the best belays we can arrange, and we take time to find solid anchors and equalise them. The first party on a route has precedence, no matter how slow or incompetent, and you only overtake with their permission.  You never touch another team's gear, and only share an anchor if nothing else is available, and again only with permission.

None of this applies in the Alps, where safety is equated with speed, and many small compromises of safety are made in order to achieve this.  This includes sharing belays in a way which would not be acceptable in the UK.

I have had something similar happen on several occasions (from both guides and ordinary climbers), and whilst it was startling at the time, to say the least, on reflection the momentary danger was more perceived than real, and we were not actually in danger of falling during the couple of seconds while the belay was being rearranged.

Yeah, but this is not the Alps but the Aigullles Rouges, overcrowded, easily escapable where every Tom, Dick and Harry plus their wives, competent or incompetent,  mix with guides in a hurry to earn a quick buck and get it over with etc. 

And even if it was the Freney Face, you should be able, without question, to expect courtesy, discussion and no compromising of other peoples' safety.

This I think is the fundamental point: trying to get multiple parties onto a climb with the best overall safety for all participants.  Hypothetically, it doesn't help to have multiple groups stuck behind one party insisting on pitching everything with an oncoming thunderstorm.  How this is achieved generally at variance with UK cragging practice.

That doesn't excuse poor communication, of course, but it does explain the conflict: guides trying to move as quickly as possible versus parties wanting to stay tied to the mountain all the time.

Oh dear, what an idealist you are. If you know the history of the Freney and ask anyone who has done it, courtesy does not rank high when parties start getting held up and a storm is coming in. Mutual assistance yes,," Oh, may I share your belay Claude?" Hardly! 

I suppose it depends on how you define "Alps". OK L'Index is a fairly easy route and not as serious as most of the routes on the other side of the valley, but it's still possible to get benighted, as friends of mine can testify.  More to the point, you can expect alpine ethics to apply there rather than British cragging practice.

Neither, hybrid. The Brits are not the only people who climb there. You've got all sorts to deal with. Getting benighted, what on earth on? At least it was good experience.  With regards to Robert's "Courtesy" . Courtesy in real Alpinism lies in anticipation, in being aware of not just yourselves, but what others around you are doing or may need and acting accordingly. A smile helps. 

Are you for real? Don't care if your a guide an instructor or a professional climber, you don't f*ck with others equipment, especially if its the only piece of protection you and your partner has....

I wonder how come people manage to cross the road without protection ?

It's somewhat difficult to fall off the road to your death*. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the situation is so different that they're incomparable.

* - most roads.

And yet people get knocked over on roads on a daily basis.  In reality, how many people have died through a momentary absence of protection ?

It's a very easy walk in and from. 5 / 6 pitches of vidff-hs at most, no snow or glacier. It's as benign as the alps can be.

How? It's like climbing on gimmer, dinas mot etc.. If things go wrong just ab off. 

Not ethics, basic courtesy and safety. 

Would you close your eyes and let a stranger you met only 5 secs earlier tell you when to run across a busy road? No you'd want to control your own safety and risk management.

Burn the witch!

It's nice to be back...

“I,d have decked him” At 67 years old. You sure? 

If you choose to be on a busy route you have already made a significant choice about the overall risk.  You can't control other parties kicking rocks on you, for instance, and unless you are willing to overtake efficiently you can't control how long you can be held up for.

I think it would take me 5 secs longer to place a sling carefully under an existing sling, compared to lifting it off and on. If a climber needs that 5 second margin to complete that route, then they shouldn't be a guide in the first place. 

The guide was/is either an ar$e, trying to show off to his clients how fast they are, or booked another client/s for another ascent the same day and needed to rush off back to the telepherique and repeat the process. 

Well there is another possibility if you think about really carefully

Of course. We've all met slow parties, etc.. some who are more helpful than others in making space on a stance, leaving 1 good anchor free as you can usually see parties slowly approaching each other pitch after pitch, coil your rope to one side etc.., even short or long pitch to avoid congestion on small stance. I remember passing a French aspirant guides party on cosmiques arete, the banter was great, especially with their mentor giving them grief  "zzzeee English are over taking us, you are too slow!". 

But even when the other parties weren't helpful I would never mess with their anchors, be rude etc.. I'm not a guide, just an instructor, but consider myself to have sufficient skills to work around any congestion, especially on the route in question and if I couldn't I would just short pitch, sit in the sun and engage in a bit conversation with the client and other party.  

Lifting a sling off and putting it back on is not great, I'd agree but its one of the less dangerous things you are subject to when you choose to do a busy route that is frequented with inexperienced parties and guided groups.

As to why the guide chose to deal with the party in his way, that is conjecture.  He may have been an arse or he may have assessed that momentarily lifting a sling was the least bad way of getting past.

The point is that in most situations there is little actual risk of a climber falling to their death or serious injury during the very brief time it takes to rearrange the belay.  The British attitude is that even this momentary risk is unacceptable, the continentals seem to think it is acceptable in the interests of moving quickly. 

Even when not sharing anchors, they're often much more casual about belaying than Brits are used to.   They'll place a quick anchor or sling (or simply take a firm stance), bring their partner up quickly and carry on.  The typical Brit would still be trying to find bomber placements and equalise them. 

Of course, but placing a sling underneath is simple, quick and a known technique of placing gear on a stance in the order it will be lifted off. There is simply no need to move their sling. It's a basic climbing practice; that should be second nature. 

But they were on the Index, not Hirondelles ridge with thunder storm clouds forming. If there was a need to move that quickly and shave those 5 seconds off the route time, then it should have been communicated. 

Had a "fun" experience with a French guided group today on Tofana di Mezzo. My wife and I were running up VF Aglio (upper section of VF Punta Anna), and for those unfamiliar there is a time limit on this. Get to the top too late and you get benighted because the cable car closes.

We caught up to the back of a very long queue, the longest I've ever seen on a "hard" via ferrata. This wouldn't have been out of place on Brigata Tridentina on a Saturday in August.

We then got delayed over an hour while a group of what appeared to be complete novices struggled with the simples VF moves, and despite plenty of opportunities, did not stop to overtake. There were maybe 2 dozen people all behind them, often waiting in stress positions on the cable.

Those who've done this route will know it's *not* one you take novices on. It goes to 3200m and it has some strenuous moves at altitude.

These people were scared of stemples. Finally they got to the top of the cabled section and sat down and started having a picnic. We passed them, fuming by this point, and made our way to the cable car station. Eventually they turned up and it became clear they were a large guided French group. They carried on their previous "faff to the max and screw everyone else" by taking 15 minutes to buy tickets, which involved a long conversation about how 8 wanted one station and 5 wanted another, and nearly made a bunch of people miss the penultimate cable car of the day.

Throughout our most unpleasant encounter with these clear novices and their guides, it was brutally apparent that they simply didn't give a crap about anyone else.

Not as dangerous as the OP's situation with the belay (sounds like the guy deserved a punch), but very, very frustrating.

This seems like a perfectly reasonable response, tbh.

I think it's fair to say that if someone has placed gear, it's usually because they feel they need it for their safety. We all climb at different levels, have different comfort levels and different ideas on acceptable risk.

It's thus not ok to remove someone else's gear without so much as a word because it inconveniences you. I don't care whether you're at Stanage or halfway up the Tacul; if they've played it they feel they need it, and unsurprisingly interfering with it will probably upset them.

How hard is it to have a quick word? Or in this case, just put the crapping sling up through theirs? No interfering necessary.

I think it's pretty clear that no one should touch an other party's safety setup for one's own convinience. although the safety aspect is the most important, the fact that by his behaviour, the guide is ruining the day of the other party shouldn't be negleted. most people only have a limited number of days out in the mountains each year and want an enjoyable experience. If , as a guide, especially a local one, you're dragging your client up the index, the cosmique ridge or a similar route in cham, well, you shouldn't count on having the place to your own. Local knowledge of good, less frequented routes should be part of a guide's competence. So, in this case, the guide has got himself in a position, where he should never have been. a classic route ten minutes from from the téléphérique in cham IS busy. so when you choose to go there , be prepared for what basic common sense tells you: waiting in line at the téléphérique( well , not for the guide), waiting at belays , waiting at the rappel... If your temper isn't up for that, stay away. There are hundreds of good routes across the alps where there's no one around. 

Ah - presumably you're thinking of the Uxbridge road:   youtube.com/watch?v=9U0tDU37q2M&

Some obviously rate Pierre but I could never afford his fees!

https://www.chamonixmontblancguides.com/testimonials

I agree absolutely.

A friend of mine, after one such incident, threatened to deck the French guide if he came anywhere near him again. He and his wife then enjoyed a very prolonged lunch at the bottom of the abseils while the guide and his client cowered at the cramped stance up above.

Cuts both ways.  If you are slow on a busy Alpine route expect to be overtaken and overtaken quickly.

sure, selecting a route matching your abilities is key.

I'm not talking about 'slow' parties but parties moving at a reasonable speed.

If I'm competent on TD routes and I go to a short AD, well , I can race up that route and most people on that route will be 'slow' compared to me. If it's a busy route, well I shouldn't complain that I'm stuck in traffic and than, the fault is not the slower party which might well still be advancing at a normal speed but it's my fault because I made a not very smart choice. I'm not talking here about slow parties, not competent on the terrain which they are climbing, who, of course, should let others pass them without arguing and complaining.

to make a long story short: If you're a 'good' climber, don't go on the arête des cosmiques overtaking beginners to boost your ego, but go do a challenging route. 

In truth I can see both sides of this argument.  I think some guides lack of consideration is pretty well balanced by some people's expectations that climbing alpine routes is best done in cragging style.

At the end of the day, a guide will be well within his technical abilities on a punters route like the Index. If the normal belays are taken by others, then set something else up nearby. It aint rocket science. Why would a guide want to stick his client on a cluttered busy belay stance anyway. More chance of it turning into a cluster.

I'd probably swing for someone who unclipped my belay - guide or not. A prick is a prick, whether they have a wee badge with IFMGA on it or not

My view is that the practice in the likes of Chamonix isn't going to change, so it's a choice on my part whether I subject myself to it. I would say the sort of practice described by the OP probably isn't that uncommon behaviour in Chamonix, so I don't think it's entirely fair single out this guide.

Years ago my partner and I found ourselves hanging on a poor peg belay with four others after a pair climbed up and another pair ab'ed down. Everybody just clipped on to our screwgates without much thought. That's Chamonix though. On another occasion I remember being surrounded by about three ropes with no runners and ropes crossing one another. It was basically a cat's cradle and if one of us slipped we'd have followed. People were climbing under or over each others ropes without much thought.

It doesn't seem exclusive to guides to me. It's just the way it is in Cham. I think it's made worse by the honeypot effect. Particularly in winter/spring when everybody is choosing the routes that are easy to ab back down to a pair of skis. My best tactic is to try and avoid the circus by either choosing quieter routes or timing an ascent to miss the first lift crowds.

Precisely.

Obviously, this comes with a little local knowledge or some research along with time spent on the internet, but there are routes out there that see little traffic or guided parties.

Alternatively, start late, miss the rush with the intention of sleeping up high after completing the route & gain the advantage of the early start before the rush hour traffic starts again next day with the arrival of the first lift. Additionally, experience the mountains with very few people about at the best times of both ends of the day, there's a lot to be said for this approach.

That's both the beauty & the horror of Chamonix, the lift system almost encourages this selfish inconsiderate behavior which some of which can be blamed upon by the threat of the dreaded afternoon storm, but most of this inconsiderate stress is entirely due to the dreaded fear of actually horror of horrors, missing the last lift down.

I personally have almost swung full circle & wished that they would remove all lift access in the Chamonix valley for the summer, it would certainly be a healthier environment in more than the obvious sense of actually walking up & back down. Obviously this is just not going to happen, but travelling just a few kilometers away from the Chamonix valley actually achieves this with an corresponding shift in atmosphere & ambience.

That depends on your outlook and preferences for climbing in the alps.  I loved Cham because of the ease of access and the fact that you can get back to civilisation quickly.  I've never subscribed to that full wilderness experience which is why the bigger ranges never appealed to me. I also focused on technical climbing rather than walking so the sooner I could get to grips with the technical climbing the better. I only climbed Mont Blanc late in my alpine career and that was in a semi guide mode.  It never interested me personally because it was not technically challenging enough.

Al

Even from the Italian side?

Unfortunately, to get to some of the best, more technical, also less visited pure granite routes & therefore quieter areas, its to your advantage to walk.

Additionally you eliminate most guided parties in doing so other than the obvious honey spot name routes, again reducing the potential cluster **** that goes with it.

I don't disagree with you or Jon with regard to the Italian side and walking but back in my formative/fit years, in the 60's/70's, I was limited to 2 weeks per year that also doubled as a family holiday on a very tight budget. Cham was convenient, and believe it or not relatively cheap if camping and I could get more done.  It was also possibly less crowded.

Al

Whilst that may be so, what right does the guide have to make that call for someone else and remove their belay?

If he finds that risk acceptable for himself then fine, it's his risk to take - expecting others to tolerate the same risk and removing their safety without so much as asking or letting them know is not on. I imagine you would have to be highly arrogant to even consider doing so.

I climbed Mont Blanc twelve times by eleven different routes. Some of them were among the finest technical climbs I've done!

Which routes?  I'm genuinely interested.

Al

That sounds rather sad. Thank God there's more to moutaineering than technical difficulty.

Mont Blanc by the Innominata ridge is hardly a stroll and a night in the Eccles bivouac is certainly a night I'll remember. I've never felt the need to push things to the extreme, many that have are not here to tell us about it.

Goiter Ridge, Traverse of Tacul and Maudit, Brenva Spur (twice, once solo), Sentinelle Rouge (solo), Route Major, Dufour/Frehel with Bovine/Vallencant finish on GPA Ceccinel/Nominee on GPA, Innominata Ridge (solo), Bonatti on Red Pillar of Brouillard, Tournette Spur (solo), East Rib of the Bosses.

Of course you may not actually consider any of these technical I suppose, especially by modern standards. But only a couple could be described as snow plods.

Wow! 

Ah beat me to it..might I add Im not a yachty, dont wear pink pants or lemon sweaters..merely work on boats

I'd class Route Major, Ceccinel Nominee GPA and Red Pillar of the Brouillard as technical by any benchmark, Rob.

And soloing the Brenva and Innominata is no mean feat either

Fantastic Robert. What a collection

I'm now going to contradict myself.  I always fancied Route Major and Brenva Spur and aspired to the Freney Pillar but never dropped on the weather to do them.

To Pyreneemec:  Nothing sad about it I've probably done more none technical routes than you have had hot dinners and enjoyed them but I was talking about preferences, aspirations and limited time and money.  Don't judge.

Al

Thanks. The obvious omission is something on the Freney Face. The closest I got was packing sacks for the Central Pillar and heading into Cham, where a changed forecast deterred us. It probably won't happen now unfortunately......

Also, the less technical ones were mostly done for acclimatisation because I am so rubbish with altitude that after a torrid time with my first ascent (Route Major), I didn't have the confidence to attempt anything technical without first going to the summit by a reasonably uncommiting route.

Do you consider them "non-technical" then? Surely the Freney is!

The routes I never aspired to were the technical but barely "alpine" routes at the Envers and so on. Alpine rock climbing always seemed such a pain to me when I could go rock climbing at home with much less hassle and fear from thunderstorms (it being something to do when the weather wasn't stable enough for the "real" alpine routes!)

I agree.  Some of the routes around the Requin and Envers huts are less serious than a day on Cloggy but still enjoyable because of the surroundings and technical so for me more attractive than a snow plod above 4000.  The Freney I would consider technical, the other two, I'm not so sure.  All three are most definitely serious however. I've done my fair share of alpine climbing so I do feel "qualified" to voice my opinion.  I would stress that it is MY opinion.

Al

I'd prefer a nice 4000m peak in Switzerland any day I think. I've even encountered some charming Swiss guides on them who have even offered to share their abseil ropes and been happy to chat about Ben Nevis!

The Swiss are rather blessed in this domain !

The Matterhorn has a special place in my heart as I soloed it. Not by a 'technical route' as would be favoured by Grid but by the tried and tested  Hornli.  I can't really comment on Swiss guides as there were none on the mountain that day. It had recently snowed and still a bit tricky to be taking paying clients up there ! 

I haven't managed a return trip to the Valais to add to my  list of  four thousanders.

No judgement intended but I think I would be correct in thinking that most alpine climbers would love to  summit Mont Blanc, perhaps not their number one priority but probably high up on their list of 'must do's'.  

It would be interesting to know what you consider a 'technical route' to be ?  

I witnessed something similar in the Alps this summer as well. It seems these guides have a severe lack of etiquette, patience and common sense. No wonder there are so many accidents.

Many of my friends and peers have never shown any interest in climbing Mont Blanc by any of the none technical routes.  I suggest you look at my "Alpine CV" in my profile to get some idea of my preferences but to get you going:  Tour Ronde by the S.E. ridge - none technical but I've done it, Tour Ronde North Face - technical and I've done it twice, Aig.du Chardonnet by Forbes Arete - not very technical and done it, Aig.du Chardonnet via North Buttress - technical and done.  Similarly Cosmiques Arete, Petite Verte etc. etc. easy enough to solo but technical none the less. Frendo Spur- technical.  Rebuffet route on the Midi - technical.  All the routes on Mont Blanc du Tacul rock triangle, mostly easy but technical. I could go on.  You could of course argue about the definition of technical but what I am not interested in are glorified walks like the Gouter or 3m's.

Al

Well, here's a bit more. What you have written is clearly defamatory since it casts a slur on his competence, damages his professional reputation  and poses a threat to his livelihood. If you can prove what you say is true then you have a defence of 'Justification' and might win any case. (This is UK by the way, no idea how French law works)  In legal terms it doesn't matter a toss what actually happened. What matters is what you can prove. You say another party saw it. Well that could be extremely useful, but do you have any way of contacting them and are you sure they would be willing to testify? If not you could be in bother. And the onus, by the way, is on you to prove that what you have said is true not on him to prove it is false.  The bit about whether or not you employed him is irrelevant.

The second question that is always worth asking in these cases is: can I really be arsed to lose  x yrs of my life fighting it if he sues?

The third is: do I feel strongly enough to risk losing tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of pounds  on  legal fees and damages in fighting the case?

HTH.

The routes I never aspired to were the technical but barely "alpine" routes at the Envers and so on. Alpine rock climbing always seemed such a pain to me when I could go rock climbing at home with much less hassle and fear from thunderstorms (it being something to do when the weather wasn't stable enough for the "real" alpine routes!)

That on the other hand surprises me. Perhaps the Envers, but the big pure rock routes. Where is the Gd Capucin at home? Where the Gds Charmoz routes, where the Chamonix Aiguilles? Where the Dolomites?

Did the Swiss route when we didn't get the weather window for the Freney (my partner came close to decking a famous climber's partner who went hand over hand down our ropes while we were abbing!)

Done the obligatory Cordier Pillar and Frendo in early days and a few other inconsequential bits and pieces when the "Grandes Courses" I aspired to were out.

Never been. Never really been inspired to go to be honest.

Are there? Involving guides?

Does it? Interesting that he hasn't made any response to the allegation on this thread yet he is clearly aware of it, because a friend has responded in his defence by trying to shift the blame onto the OP for being there in the first place, and has also failed to condemn this dangerous practice.

Yes directly and indirectly! Guides should show best practice as a good example to their piers and clients so that bad practice is not copied and perceived as the norm. Monkey see monkey do.

If you want a good Alpine Guide try Phil Douthwaite. He's a top bloke.

Tbh I'm of a generation that never dreamt of employing a guide, even if we could have afforded it that would have missed the point of doing alpinism in the first place. 

I still query your assertion that there are lots of accidents involving guides,... really? 

I would say that is does  because it accuses him of being reckless and dangerous - both very serious allegations. It is not difficult to argue that saying  that about a professional guide is clearly defamatory; whether it is libelous or not would be for a court to decide, based on the evidence the OP could present.  The damage would be compounded by the OP urging other climbers to boycott this guide's services, which would  be seen as an attempt to harm him financially. As I said in my  earlier response, the onus here is on the OP to prove his allegation is true not for the guide to prove it is untrue so the fact that he has not (so far) chosen to respond is neither here not there.  He is perfectly entitled to take advice before doing so and  not to get embroiled in a tit-for-tat exchange on here.  From memory, he has up to a year to issue proceedings, though that may have changed since I stopped having to worry about such things.

The lack of response may be for a multitude of reasons. It could be that he doesn't care about what is said on an English chat forum or he may think the best response is to just let it die down as a one day wonder rather than getting into an extended spat. Or perhaps he is consulting lawyers or his professional organisation about taking action. We have no idea which.

Fortunately the guide's colleague appears to have confirmed the OP's account, so I think it rather unlikely there's any defamation going to be claimed.

How does he make that case? Do you have a link?

This thread 20th July Climber 75

I went to Cham' for the 1st time this year & I've got to say I was concerned by some things I saw the French guides doing & teaching. I'm very grateful to my local club for all the things I've learned prior to my trip, otherwise I'd never have know there was anything wrong & would now be going around using unsafe practices myself.

Thanks. So that the OP should have let him pass, not that he shouldn't have been there.

Quote:

" If this was a "frightening experience" for the climbers, perhaps they shouldn't have considered a very popular multi-pitch climb where they were bound to encounter others, because if anyone knows the Alps in the summer, this is what happens."

Fair enough. That bit comes across almost as a threat: "come into my gang's territory and bad stuff will happen to you". 

I was thinking of the bit where he says the guide asked to pass and they didn't let him.

I hadn't thought of it as a threat, more of a declaration that on a busy route people (including guides) will take off your anchor to put theirs's on when passing you. But you could be right which is even more alarming coming from a guide. Nowhere in his post does he condemn the practice, nor deny that Pierre did just that.

I think you got it right near the end. It is only on an English chat forum you'd find a thread like this. 

Or: " If this was an inconvenient or frustrating experience for the guide, perhaps he shouldn't have considered a very popular cragging route where there he would be bound to encounter slower parties, because, as a local guide he should have known perfectly well that this is what happens in the Aiguilles Rouges".

Spot on !