UKH

Hi All

I'm looking for advice for an outdoor wall (moonboard) that I've built at the side of my house. Basically, I was under the impression that because it was under 4m max height that planning permission wasn't needed but I didn't realise that because it's close to the boundary with another property, that the max height is then limited to 2.5m.

I think that my neighbours must have reported it to the planning authorities and I've been issued with a letter from planning enforcement. I've called them and been told to put together a retrospective planning application.

I was wondering whether anyone else has successfully submitted a planning application for a wall? What did you do in your case? Is it worth getting hold of a professional agent to handle this?

Thanks

bit more detail...

the wall follows the moonboard design (8ft by 12ft), it's made from scaffolding pipe frame sunk in concrete at the base with wooden exterior painted grey. It's at the end of the neighbours' garden and covered by a large tree on their side.

I'm no expert on planning but hopefully someone with some knowledge will come along soon. 

in the meantime is it possible to do a quick redesign to have it movable? i.e have some plates on the bottom of the scaffold poles so you can bolt it to the concrete and then stick some token wheels on it. if its feasible to move it then you certainly won't need planning. 

The 4 m and 2.5 m heights refer to the max roof of a dual pitched outbuilding and the maximum height of an outbuilding respectively.  These are the maximum heights that are “permitted developments” for an outbuilding more or less than two meters from the curtilage of your property, respectively.

I don’t see how the guidance on permitted developments for outbuildings - which I’ve read carefully a few times - translates to a leisure wall.  

Can you list the exact text of the enforcement notice?  It might or might not gives some explanations.

I don’t feel competent to advise if you should challenge the notice or submit a retrospective one.  You should definitely arrange to speak with a senior planning person in the council to determine what kind of planning permission is actually required.  Then you can judge if you need expert help in drawing it up, or in challenging them.

Could you not put a hinge at the floor end and lower it out of sight when not in use. You will need to check this, but different rules can apply is something is not permantly fixed.
The problem is now is even if you get planning permission you will still have a pissed of neighbour.
As to all things official, "under the impression" and "I thought" are the way to doom.

Speak to your neighbours, see what they want. You'll get less trouble from the planners if they're not getting objections.

jk

put some wheels on it then build it up to 12 metres height with some flashing lights on the top

Right on. I think they are clearly shy retiring types I spoke to them while I was building it and they must have kept their thoughts to themselves.

It's pretty hard to change what I've got now without major work but it might come to this. I think they are definitely pissed off as they've made official complaint about noise too - again without talking to me first.

In fairness I could have gone to them and discussed before starting work but I had no idea they would get so emotional about it.

The maximum height exempt from planning permission is 4m with it being 2.5 m at the eaves if within 2m of property boundary. I assume it's within 2m of your boundary. A car port come under the same guidance and you could argue that this is a similar structure. I think the issue come from the fact the the top of it could be defined at as eave, this could be gotten round by building a slope from the top to within 2.5 m of the ground and would also help keep it dry in rain. 

Thanks for this. I've set up a call with the "duty planning officer" tomorrow. Will see where I get with that.

Thanks for this. I am just about to start construction of a climbing shed and was using this information:

https://www.planningni.gov.uk/index/.../advice_home_structures.htm

Which being a government website I assumed was correct. 

However it's not quite right this is the correct information which matches what you said:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/permitted-development-rights-for...

Thanks.  Don’t take my advice as gospel!  I would read the full documents as far as possible and not the various summaries floating about, each seems to miss something.

Also be aware of “Article 3 restrictions” which can remove some or all permitted development rights.  Our council doesn’t publish a list of these, one would have to contact them to ask.  

Also, be aware that the 2.5 m / 4 m distinction applies to the “curtilage” and not the boundary of your property.  The former may be smaller than the later for non-simple grounds.  It seems there is no central source of a definitive answer other than getting the courts to decide.  

If I could face if I would dig in to the text of the various laws this all derives from; life is however to short.  I have just erred on the side of caution with my outbuilding.  

Damn it. I thought they were the same. I am legal owner of a path that runs past my house which I thought I could add the my curtillage distance but since it is outside of my hedge I now think not. I also think I would have been within 2m if the house which is also not ok of over 1.5m. I've literally bought the wood today so really glad this has just come up. 

Nothing to do with planning but a couple of tips from experience. Plenty of parish councillors will be keeping a beady eye on everything so don’t assume it was the neighbours. Permitted development does not mean you can build anything in any style. Despite not being in a conservation area we were not permitted to wood clad a ‘permitted development’ extension. Being technically removable makes no difference to planning and you would have to drop after  a month (for another month I think). In Derbyshire the planning department have been pretty helpful throughout.

We have a similar issue with a track that is ours but that has shared access rights for other houses.

You’ve still got 2.5 meters height above ground to work with.   I wanted over 3 meters height under the tall side of the single pitched roof so I dug down half a meter, and waterproofed the buried part.  Membrane under the concrete base and up the sides of the burried blockwork walls and a bonus bitumen coat or 3 on the inside of the blockwork.  I also took care to take all roof water far from the building to be safe.

If 3 meters isn’t enough height, you’ll just have to overhang the wall and get strong!  I wasn’t going to dig further because we hit clay.  Digging clay is not rewarding.

There’s no harm in asking the council in writing to clarify their understanding of your curtilage with regards permitted development, unless hypothetically you were going to build a non compliant outbuilding and keep it under the radar until you can trigger the “4 year rule” and get a certificate of lawfulness for it.  

It’s amazing when I walk around our village how many blatant planning violations I see (admittedly a lot relate to tree works in a conservation area and section 211 notification) - there seems to be some ill defined line below which people can’t be bothered to complain unless you piss them off.   

For the avoidance of doubt, my next comment is absolutely not related to the OP who acted in good faith and is being eminently reasonable in my view and also not aimed at you, it’s just a General Rant.  Taking your chances with planning violations and then complaining bitterly through the press is one of my pet peeves.  There’s some punter’s mansion with egregious violations that’s been in the news recently because the owners are claiming they can’t afford to do the works required by the enforcement action and would be made homeless.  It made a BBC News too 10 storey.  If it wasn’t so petty and mean spirited I’d write them a letter telling them how little I care.   Planning law is one of the pillars of modern society - without it things would fall apart hellishly quickly.

Go and confront them about both issues, film the whole thing and then YouTube that badboy 

I think I'm going to talk to neighbour who are likely to care, build it and aim for 4 years. Worst case scenario is I move it 2 meters from boundary.

Here's what I got from the council planning enforcement officer...

The enquiry is regarding a large contruction at the side of your house which looks like a climbing frame.

Please contact me on the above telephone number to discuss this matter, as this will probably require Planning Permission.

.....

I did phone him and he said I'd need planning permission. I'm waiting to hear back about the deadline. When I get something, I'll crack on and get one sorted. If I'm lucky, they might not follow up.

I spoke to my neighbour and she seemed to be embarrassed about making a complaint when she discovered it was a climbing frame. I think she was worried that I was building a large extension onto the house so she reported it. After talking to her, I think she seems ok with it and won't take it further and doesn't seem to have any concerns. 

Lesson learned...if I'd discussed it with her beforehand, it might not have come to this and nobody would have cared.