NEWS: Parking Charge Introduced at Cairngorm Mountain

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 rif 21 Jun 2018

This could go in any of several forums -- mods please move as neessary.

Today's local newspaper informs me that parking charges have come in at the Coire Cas and Ciste car parks. Details here: https://www.cairngormmountain.org/parking-at-cairngorm-mountain/  

 


Ed - and here's our news piece on it: https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2018/06/parking_charge_introduced_at_cairng...

 leon 1 21 Jun 2018
In reply to rif:  Im just amazed that its reasonable. £2 per day for cars seems not too bad to me.  Wish it was similar in the Lakes !

 

2
 Andy Nisbet 21 Jun 2018
In reply to rif:

I do wonder if it's enforceable?

 DaveHK 21 Jun 2018
In reply to rif:

8 quid for a van is ridiculous in comparison to £2 for a car.

2
 Doug 21 Jun 2018
In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Wasn't there charging in the past which was then ruled illegal, how is this different?

 Andrew Lodge 21 Jun 2018
In reply to rif:

If using the car park to go climbing in winter it's perfectly reasonable.

For a car with 4 people in all buying day tickets to ski it's taking the p***

 Dax H 21 Jun 2018
In reply to rif:

They had a honesty box that 19 out of 20 didn't put in so them impose charges. 

Fail play if you ask me. I park in a few places with honesty boxes, Masham being the one I use most and always use the box if I have change, if I don't I bung extra in next time. Hopefully enough people do the same so it doesn't go pay and display. 

1
 Siward 21 Jun 2018
In reply to Dax H:

It should be unlawful to operate a car park these days without a pay by phone app option (unless it's free!) Having to sort out change for parking , particularly if cash is just something you dimly remember from the past, is a complete pain. 

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 Andy Nisbet 22 Jun 2018
In reply to Doug:

In general, private parking in Scotland is not enforceable. But their web-site is very carefully worded, and the local council may have been involved, in which case it might be. Obviously I go up there a lot so it makes a difference.

 

 Grahame N 22 Jun 2018
In reply to rif:

I wonder how much public money (from our taxes) has gone into the ski centre and car park over the years?

 Jon Read 22 Jun 2018
In reply to rif:

How will it work if you are leaving the car for a couple of days?

 DaveHK 22 Jun 2018
In reply to Grahame N:

> I wonder how much public money (from our taxes) has gone into the ski centre and car park over the years?

That's one of the major issues with all the various controversies surrounding Cairngorm and Natural Retreats.

 Neil Williams 22 Jun 2018
In reply to DaveHK:

Agreed, should be the same for anything taking up one space.

 Jim 1003 22 Jun 2018
In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Can't see the local council sending somebody up there to give out a ticket, due to distance etc, so it will probably be them doing it themselves, in which case it will not be enforceable.

 MikeSP 22 Jun 2018
In reply to Siward:

Really, surely nanny has got better thing to do than than make laws so you don't have to go to a cash machine.

Post edited at 12:00
2
 Luke90 22 Jun 2018
In reply to Siward:

Totally agree with you that cash-only car parks are annoying. Particularly as parking charges creep ever upwards, making the amounts involved totally unsuited to loose change. Even if you're someone who uses cash all the time, you'd probably pull out a note 90% of the time for charges over a fiver.

Not a fan of those mobile phone payment options though. It's all very well if you regularly park in a particular car park or a city centre that uses a single system but if you visit lots of different places, they all use a different system and become an even bigger hassle than getting hold of change. The option to top up remotely if you realise you'll be longer than planned is handy in theory but for me, it's not worth the rest of the hassle.

I prefer the option of contactless payments. They're quick, easy and almost everybody now has the option. Most credit and debit cards support it by default, along with a lot of mobile phones. I imagine that the group of people who object and opt out probably overlaps a lot with the group who would prefer to just use cash anyway.

A few car parks started adopting that option a few years ago but progress is very slow and lots of new pay and display machines seem to have the contactless hardware but not have it turned on (the car park opposite Wildcat, for example). I guess getting the necessary data connection is an issue in some places. I know I've parked for free at Surprise View once when the machine wasn't accepting payments (card only), perhaps because of a connection issue. All the cash alternatives presumably come with costs to the owners but cash must involve collecting and handling costs too.

Having said all that, £2 is a very low charge and a much more reasonable amount to pay in loose change. Though that hike up to £8 for vans that probably fit in the same bays as cars seems a bit steep!

 beth 22 Jun 2018
In reply to rif:

8quid for my campervan which admittedly takes up 1.5spaces is ridiculous. I wonder if I can claim it's a car as it only has 3 seats with belts

"A car is defined as having seven seats or less".

Having been directed to the side of the car park where they've pushed the snow to, I can't help feeling they really don't want me there.

 

2
MarkJH 22 Jun 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

> Can't see the local council sending somebody up there to give out a ticket, due to distance etc, so it will probably be them doing it themselves, in which case it will not be enforceable.

What do you mean by enforceable?  If it is a private contract then they will certainly be able to chase you for the 'fine'.  Someone near me thought that private parking charges could safely be ignored, and it cost her tens of thousands of pounds when a judgement was finally made.

I would be wary of ignoring private parking charges, particularly if you are a regular visitor.

Removed User 22 Jun 2018
In reply to MarkJH:

Under Scots law the contract is not with the registered keeper but the driver. In order to chase the driver for the "fine" they have to know who the driver is. The registered keeper is under no obligation to divulge that information.

1
 Robert Durran 22 Jun 2018
In reply to Luke90:

> Having said all that, £2 is a very low charge and a much more reasonable amount to pay in loose change. Though that hike up to £8 for vans that probably fit in the same bays as cars seems a bit steep!

Maybe they are assuming (incorrectly) that the £8 charge is in effect an overnight charge.

 

 Luke90 22 Jun 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

I assumed that, like almost every other car park I've seen, they would have a "no overnight parking" clause but I can't actually see anything about that so perhaps you're right.

 smally 22 Jun 2018
In reply to Grahame N:

2008 Audit Scotland report states that £23 million of public money had been spent on the Funicular development !

Wonder how much more was 'invested' till Natural Retreats came along in 2014 as the new operator ?

I don't feel that disposed to paying , it's creeping in everywhere now. And is there a guarantee that parking charges will be used for mitigating environmental impacts ?

 Robert Durran 22 Jun 2018
In reply to smally:

> And is there a guarantee that parking charges will be used for mitigating environmental impacts ?

I'd happily pay quite a bit more that £2 if it was to go towards the removal of the entire ski infrastructure including the car park!

 

5
MarkJH 22 Jun 2018
In reply to Removed Userrabthecairnterrier:

> Under Scots law the contract is not with the registered keeper but the driver. In order to chase the driver for the "fine" they have to know who the driver is. The registered keeper is under no obligation to divulge that information.

I would imagine that 4 times out of 5, the registered keeper would also be the driver.  If the company pressed ahead with a civil case (either as an example or because they thought it was worth it), then you may well be put in a position where you are asked directly who the driver was.  I suspect that if you kept silent in that situation, you are unlikely to win the case.

3
 girlymonkey 23 Jun 2018
In reply to rif:

Do we know if the cas and sugar bowl car parks will be charging too? 

I can see the shop getting fed up with people asking for change or cashback. I don't carry cash and I don't think I'm alone in that.

I certainly won't be paying £8 to park. I presume I will park by loch morlich and either hitch or get the bus up.

2
 DaveHK 23 Jun 2018
In reply to girlymonkey:

The sugar bowl already does but it's Forestry Commission I think.

Jim C 23 Jun 2018
In reply to beth:

I saw a car with a fine  in the Succoth car park , and they were properly parked  in a space , but without a ticket displayed. 

Next  to the car with the fine , were TWO parking  spaces which had a single 4x4 parked over the two spaces, but there was No fine  on the 4x4 . 

Surely anyone who  parks over two spaces ( presumably just because they don't want anyone parking too close because they have an oversized vehicle) should buy TWO tickets or get a fine ?

(It's a busy car park, and the 4x4  therefore denied others a parking space)

 

 

 

 

 DaveHK 23 Jun 2018
In reply to girlymonkey:

> I certainly won't be paying £8 to park. 

That's the thing that's bugging me. For a variety of reasons, none of which would stand up to much scrutiny I hate paying for parking. That said, I'd probably suck it up and pay 2 quid but certainly not £8 when my van fits in a regular parking bay, it only has 3 seats, it's often only me that's in it and it's not normally left in that car park overnight.

 

Post edited at 18:24
 jonnie3430 23 Jun 2018
In reply to leon 1:

I don't find any parking charge reasonable. The car park would be there with or without visitors and we should be encouraging people to get into the hills. £2 now is what in the future? This seems to be the way all car parks are going, and impacts locals more that any others; glen affric £2, Cairngorms £2, where's next? Moy? Duntelchaig? Soon every evening will be £2+ in parking! 

11
 girlymonkey 23 Jun 2018
In reply to DaveHK:

Ok. I've never parked there. Just thinking if coire cas car park is still free, then that last section of the road will be full of pedestrians, which will be a pain.

 

 girlymonkey 23 Jun 2018
In reply to DaveHK:

Indeed, I'm in the same position. Mine fits in a normal space too. 

 Robert Durran 23 Jun 2018
In reply to girlymonkey:

>  Just thinking if coire cas car park is still free, then that last section of the road will be full of pedestrians, which will be a pain.

Don't you mean Coire na Ciste?

 

 Robert Durran 23 Jun 2018
In reply to jonnie3430:

>  The car park would be there with or without visitors.

Eh? No it wouldn't.

 girlymonkey 23 Jun 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes, just testing to see if you are paying attention ;-p

Removed User 23 Jun 2018
In reply to MarkJH:

Actually, no. That's not how it works, 'cos you can't take anyone to court in a civil case in Scotland unless you know who they are first, and as already pointed out, in a civil case in Scotland they have no power to compel the register keeper to divulge that information. It is not a criminal matter. In England it is different; there, the registered keeper is liable. 

Removed User 23 Jun 2018
In reply to MarkJH:

If you are referring to the well-known case in Dundee, the private parking company were only able to take action because she admitted to them that she was the driver. A private company has no legal power to demand of the registered keeper to divulge the name of the driver should the RK decline to comment.

MarkJH 23 Jun 2018
In reply to Removed Userrabthecairnterrier:

> Actually, no. That's not how it works, 'cos you can't take anyone to court in a civil case in Scotland unless you know who they are first, and as already pointed out, in a civil case in Scotland they have no power to compel the register keeper to divulge that information. It is not a criminal matter. In England it is different; there, the registered keeper is liable. 

Yes, but they can start a civil claim against the registered keeper on the assumption that the registered keeper was driving and therefore had a contract with them.  This would probably be considered reasonable if the registered keeper refused to speak to them.  If this happens then the registered keeper will, at some point, have to ask for the case to be dismissed on the grounds that they were not driving, and will have to justify that to the court or lie.

That is obviously different from being compelled by law to give up the information and carries more risk for the company, but I wouldn't be so sure that it makes parking charges unenforceable.

 

 jonnie3430 24 Jun 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

> >  The car park would be there with or without visitors.

> Eh? No it wouldn't.

It, and the bottom car park would be there for the two or three days a year that Cairngorm is at full capacity. That they don't maintain it is there own issue, not members of the public.

3
 Mehmet Karatay 24 Jun 2018
In reply to Andy Nisbet:

> Obviously I go up there a lot so it makes a difference.

I believe you can get an annual pass for £25 and if you happen to have ski pass then it's free. 

Mehmet 

 Andy Nisbet 24 Jun 2018
In reply to Mehmet Karatay:

No, just seasonal pass, without saying how long the season is. The car park used to be part of the public road system; that's why they couldn't charge. And my taxes paid for that.

2
 Robert Durran 24 Jun 2018
In reply to jonnie3430:

> It, and the bottom car park would be there for the two or three days a year that Cairngorm is at full capacity. That they don't maintain it is there own issue, not members of the public.

Sorry, not at all sure what your point is.

 Robert Durran 24 Jun 2018
In reply to rif:

So, been at the carpark today. There is a real human being taking real money and giving change. He said they can't enforce buying a ticket, so effectively nothing has changed except that non payers have to ignore a person hovering around rather than a machine about a hundred metres away. Awesome day to be on the Shelter stone crag

Edit: We paid. 50p each.......

Post edited at 21:14
1
Removed User 24 Jun 2018
In reply to MarkJH:

Not according to CAB Scotland who, is may be assumed, are better informed than you or I.

MarkJH 24 Jun 2018
In reply to Removed Userrabthecairnterrier:

> Not according to CAB Scotland who, is may be assumed, are better informed than you or I.

 

According to their website: "You do not have to identify who the person that parked the car was. It is still possible that a parking company may try to make you pay the parking charge by taking you to court. You can defend any court action"

 

That is exactly what I said.  If you are the registered keeper and get taken to court then you will have to state that you were not driving in order to counter the claim and may be asked to back this up (named drivers etc).  As above, you will probably get away with not buying a ticket, but I would not be racking up more penalty charges than I could afford to pay.  I would certainly not make it worthwhile for any one landowner to take me to court.

 

Removed User 25 Jun 2018
In reply to MarkJH:

I shall await the outcome of the first court case with bated breath.

PS ... you don't work for ParkingEye do you?

7
MarkJH 25 Jun 2018
In reply to Removed Userrabthecairnterrier:

> PS ... you don't work for ParkingEye do you?

 

No, I just think that telling people that it is OK to get into (potentially) large amounts of debt on the basis that they cannot be made to pay is really poor advice when it is far from clear that that is the case.

 

Removed User 26 Jun 2018
In reply to MarkJH:

Advice? Not my business to advise anyone - I was making a comment. People can (and will) make up their own minds as to the best course of action for themselves.

4
 Roberttaylor 31 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Nisbet:

I was up there recently, there was a cheerful guy in a hi-vis jacket standing by the sign as you enter the car park. I stopped and lowered my window.

Him "Hello, £2.50 for parking please."

Me "Is this legally enforceable yet?"

Him "It's entirely voluntary."

Me "With all due respect, I'll wait till it's mandatory. Have a good one."

Him "You too."

I'd recommend anyone heading up there do the same; that way you keep abreast of developments and make sure you're in the right. 

6
 Andy Nisbet 01 Aug 2018
In reply to Roberttaylor:

You can park in the lower car park and not have to speak to the mannie. 200m extra to walk.

 DaveHK 01 Aug 2018
In reply to rif:

Has anyone been up in a van and argued the toss? As I've said before I'd consider paying the same as a car for my van but not 4x.

Post edited at 07:49
 top cat 01 Aug 2018
In reply to DaveHK:

How do they define van?   Mine was a van, but has been converted and is now officially a motor caravan.  Not a commercial vehicle, not a car.....though it is car sized, being based on a Fiat Doblo Maxi.

 DaveHK 01 Aug 2018
In reply to top cat:

I think it's a catch all van / campervan / minibus thing.

 GarethSL 01 Aug 2018
In reply to Siward:

Shhh, this is UKC. Folks here like to live in the dark ages, with like real money and shit.

1
 rogerwebb 01 Aug 2018
In reply to DaveHK:

I asked one of the parking men about vans. He said if it was a van with a couple of people he would charge it as a car. The higher charge is intended for groups and large campervans.

There is more than one parking man though and I don't know if that was general or personal policy. 

 Grahame N 01 Aug 2018
In reply to Roberttaylor:

I was there last week and there was no 'high-viz' man at the entrance. We parked and I went to pay at one of the many new pay points around the car park. However you just put your money in a slot box and no ticket is issued. Therefore there is no way anyone can check if you've paid. So in effect payment is voluntary.

 DaveHK 01 Aug 2018
In reply to rogerwebb:

Thanks Roger.

 DaveHK 01 Aug 2018
In reply to jonnie3430:

The Cobbler car park is going up from £1 to £9.

3
 Fiona Reid 01 Aug 2018
In reply to DaveHK:

> The Cobbler car park is going up from £1 to £9.

Mountaineering Scotland are hopefully on the case: https://www.mountaineering.scot/news/800-per-cent-parking-increase-for-the-... 

£9 is out of order and if Argyll and Bute council get away with it I fear it may set a worrying precedent. 

In reply to top cat:

I was up in a renault Trafic last week and it was £2.

The guy there said they're taking a "pragmatic" approach whatever that means.

 Greylag 01 Aug 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I'd happily pay quite a bit more that £2 if it was to go towards the removal of the entire ski infrastructure including the car park!

Can I ask why?

Also if you feel this way as it's an eyesore (?) why did you use it recently? 

 

 Robert Durran 01 Aug 2018
In reply to Greylag:

> Can I ask why?

Because I believe the development of infrastructure which infringes deeply into the unique environment of the high Cairngorms providing easy access which has badly degraded the area was a terrible mistake.

> Also if you feel this way...... why did you use it recently? 

Because it's there. Obviously.

 

 nufkin 01 Aug 2018
In reply to Grahame N:

>  However you just put your money in a slot box and no ticket is issued. Therefore there is no way anyone can check if you've paid.

Seems like an opportunity for an enterprising individual with a high-vis jacket and a can-do attitude to do well for themselves of a busy weekend

 Tricadam 02 Aug 2018
In reply to rif:

24 hour toilets would at least be a reasonable use of the money. 

Speaking of payment for parking, I'd be happy to pay for the north face car park at Ben Nevis if it meant the road being in reasonable condition (2-4 quid being cheaper than a new exhaust) and there being a composting toilet or two and some bins. The lack of the latter two is certainly leading to environmental degradation! I can't recall visiting any world-famous place abroad (whether in South Asia, South America, Sub-Saharan Africa, North America or Europe) which lacked at least something approximating a toilet at the car park. 

 Gturner71 02 Aug 2018
In reply to rif:

Was up there yesterday, the man in hi viz starts at 9 so if you get there before then as we did you don't have to pay it seems, also there are a lot of people now parking along the side of the approach road.

 Andy Nisbet 02 Aug 2018
In reply to Gturner71:

As I said before, you can park in the lower car park and don't need to park on the roadside.


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