UKC

We sent some questions to Helen Mort - acclaimed poet, writer and one of the collection's editors - to find out more about the project...

Looks like it could be a good read. I was wondering, when is the men's anthology coming out for the other 50% of the human race? Good for them for putting it out there.

Just look back in time and you'll find plenty of them, look forward and no doubt you'll see plenty more.

Here's to a world of (thankfully) more diverse climbing and mountaineering literature.

If the writing is half as good as the pictures in the article, this'll be amazing. Good to see stuff like this being made.

I've seen plenty of books on adventure with people in them. Many of them are men on those adventures but I don't remember the books being specifically aimed at men. Once again it feels like gender is being put into something so simple when personally I just see adventure with people in it.

My post really wasn't to dregrade women but rather I don't see the difference in gender when it comes to writing this kind of literature. I guess I don't see any difference in the sexes, especially when my main climbing partner is female.

In all good taste it's great they're putting this material out there but it's a shame we bring gender into it.

Sounds like a great project, although I'm not sure what Nan Shepherd would think about your description of her work as "tales of conquering peaks"!

That's a great excuse for not having to think about the massive gender gap in climbing publications. 

So was it or wasn't it? Not the best thing to be ambiguous about. 

Clearly you do or you wouldn't be getting riled up about there not being a mens anthology (of which there are plenty). There are also plenty of differences between men/women/other which is why it's important and interesting to explore the world through these differing viewpoints.

No, it's important because it's an area that's classically dominated by men and the fact the balance is being readdressed is something to be celebrated. 

Equality isn't the same as saying "I think everybody is the same" because it's not true and is a poor excuse for embracing people for the diverse creatures they are and celebrating that fact. 

Equality is understanding that we are different but treating each other equally regardless of differences. 

I don't think he was being ambiguous. I just think that you don't understand the difference between "really wasn't" and "wasn't really"

The trouble with saying that we shouldn't "bring gender into it" is that gender is already "into it" whether we like it or not, so you're effectively saying that we should pretend it isn't...

Both of those are ambiguous statements. 

You misread it.

'The content follows the precedent set by Nan Shepherd and Gwen Moffat's work, in recognising sensations and emotions over tales of conquering peaks,' which means writing about these sensations rather than sharing 'tales of conquering peaks.' 

olddirtydoggy: I think you'll find - if you look for it - that a lot in society has historically been ‘specifically aimed at men’ without many people even realising.

I think the emphasis is on different words there, but not going to fall out about it.

My understanding, and having spoken to people researching 'women's writing about the outdoors' is that historically women wrote private letters and diaries about their experiences in the outdoors. Little of this was published for public consumption at the time - that may have been because the  women concerned preferred their writing to be for private consumption, didn't see the need to broadcast their activities, or they had no access to publishing it. Or elements of all three. 

Certainly the Lake District had numerous women climbing the hills and fells and writing about it, Dorothy Wordsworth being the most obvious. ( This year is the 200th anniversary of her ascent of Scafell ) 

In the talk about such things back in March in Leeds, I particularly liked the bit about how some Lakeland hills were strictly for men whilst other, more gentle peaks were suitable for ladies

:klaxon:

Ahhh, gotcha! So it's "over" in the sense of "in contrast to", which chimes much more with Nan's writing (I haven't read anything of Gwen's yet). Thanks for clarifying!

There's some really good posts here, we don't seem to be sinking to the level of personal attacks over this gender debate.

In the bubble I live in I climb with both sexes, with people of many nationalities and whilst we're out doing what we enjoy we don't really notice if somebody sits or stands when using the bathroom or what accent they speak with. It might be my post comes from a more innocent world where such inequalities don't exist. I just don't understand why the gender debate is thrust into the outdoors when we have so many female inspirations. I can only speak personally but when I read about Lynn hill or Shauna Coxey smashing something I don't really notice what gender they are, they're just great climbers. I find some of this gender material quite toxic.

Well, that's the crux of it really. But I think if you concede that this is your own personal experience then you must also concede that it may not be representative, and that the experiences of others may differ. I remember a while back a thread where a female climber enumerated all the ways in which she felt she had been poorly treated at the crag due to her gender, and I for one found it pretty illuminating.

To be honest, I always find these threads a bit uncomfortable - I'm very much aware that UKC demographics are massively skewed towards men, and this feels a bit like being on a panel of men discussing women's reproductive rights.

You'll be wanting votes for men next, and threatening to throw yourself under the Queens corgis if you don't get it

<pedant> The Queen doesn't have any  corgis.</pedant>

A quick Google confirms this.  Apparently superseded by the "Gas Safe Register" - about time frankly, why they thought stumpy legged pooches should be allowed to assess our flammable gas safety requirements is beyond me.  My grand-dad (Durham miner) always swore by canaries (and at most things, if I remember correctly).

I would really welcome more womens writing, and also writing about women in the outdoors. I dont think its tokenism, such a huge amount of outdoor writing features a largely all male world. I enjoy the wrting whether its about men or women, but at the same time I get the same feeling from it that I used to get as a kid when reading adventure stories ...I'd look for characters to identify with but find the ones doing all the exciting things were boys.  And there have been so many amazing outdoor women in the past that are aslo a part of our history, its a shame they are largely invisible.  

You write (type) "I find some of this gender material quite toxic."

#MeToo

I wonder if the pitch on these articles could be presented a little different. There's no doubt women write different to men and thats the great thing about it, we can enjoy a different style regardless of the readers gender. Nat Berry mentioned earlier that there's much male written outdoor material aimed at men but I wonder if it's more a case of men writing for whoever wants to read it.

Personally I'd just like to see the gender removed from how this material is presented and just have it offered as a first class piece of writing. Is true equality achieved when we all just do what we do and consume it without thinking about the gender of its origin? I honestly feel great about living in that headspace.

"Personally I'd just like to see the gender removed from how this material is presented and just have it offered as a first class piece of writing. Is true equality achieved when we all just do what we do and consume it without thinking about the gender of its origin? I honestly feel great about living in that headspace." Thus speaks the voice of privilege.

You know absolutely nothing about me, my background or what so called privilege I come from. For all you know I could be a girl.

I think you mean woman. But you're right, I don't know your gender, which is why I didn't write "male privilege." But let's go with the working assumption that you are male. You have repeatedly come to this thread, as a man, to diminish this project and the woman involved in it by explaining how, just because you don't "see" or "notice" gender (indeed, you even claim to live in a world in which such inequalities "don't exist"), gender is being wrongly and unnecessarily introduced, undermining the validity of the project. You even admit to being in a "bubble" and a "headspace" yet think its ok to pronounce from there on how others can talk about their own experiences, discussion of gender is even "toxic" to you. You've given a textbook display of male privilege throughout this thread (remember, its just a working assumption for now). 

Before I even clicked on this I just knew there would be some bloke moaning about it.  *sigh*