UKH

Scenario - a late night walk with Frank for last poos & wees in the charming Peak District village of Chinley. Down a side street I watch a bloke hitting and dragging his dog, the sounds of the action being deadened, in a sinister fashion, by the snow. I approach and ask why he's hitting his dog, and am rebuffed with "Go away!" I continue my enquiries in a calm but forthright manner. Along the lines of "Why are you beating your dog?" and other reasonable questions. The only response I get is for me to go away, that it's none of my business and that I don't know what the dog did. I ask the old bloke for an explanation of his behaviour and he refuses point blank to do so while walking off. I follow. Apparently my dog is now upsetting his, because his dog doesn't like other dogs. I suggest there are no bad dogs, only bad owners. Felling righteous, I follow and persist with my questioning, suggesting he use the gift of language to explain his attack on his dog. He stonewalls and continues to walk away. I am aware of observers in bedroom windows. I follow and suggest his refusal to explain his assualt shows he has something to hide. I get nowhere, and the miserable old bastard carries on his way. I return home for Horlicks (can you still buy that stuff?)

Given my one-sided explanation, was I right to harangue him, and what should I do the next time I meet him, which will probably be very soon?

 

 

 

In reply to Frank the Husky:

I suppose you could ring the RSPCA but I doubt they will do much

 

In reply to Frank the Husky:

You were right to challenge him but not to persist. Quite often people actually change their behaviour when they know other people disapprove of it  - but they are less likely to if they feel totally put upon - and they need time to think.  Thats my tuppence but I wasn't there.

There is such a thing as a bad dog - I have two dogs - Archie is as good as gold in the house but when he feel challenged by another dog he shoots first and asks questions later.  Luna is a sweet little thing and has never been any trouble.  With Archie I have been sworn at for putting him on a lead (when he can feel more threatened)  and letting him off a lead (usually after he's had a go at another dog) Either way he's high maintenance.  His behaviour is only slightly better now he's nearly eleven!  

 

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Not the main point you are interested in, but a dog not liking other dogs does not make them a bad dog and it is not always anything to do with the owner. My dog is reactive to other dogs when on short lead and we train him with entirely positive methods (although we had a mini breakthrough tonight when he didn't react nearly so much to one that came close! Getting there slowly!)

In terms of how to deal with the guy, I get that you were upset by what you saw, but it sounds like your approach with the guy was maybe a bit confrontational. This will never get anyone onside and willing to change their attitudes. Maybe try and have general dog chat next time (what breed is he, how old etc), build a bit of a friendship, and then when he says something about the dogs habits that annoy him or the dog does something when you are there, suggest an alternative way of dealing with it in a friendly way. 

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Thanks for your replies so far. I should add that his first & only explanation for beating his dog was that he was doing it "to make her behave".

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Sounds from your description that it was an old guy? People have only really started humane dog training recently, the mainstream for a long time was to hit it until it shut down in fear and we'll call that behaving. The guy might genuinely not know there's another way. Really sad for the dog, but if you can get the guy onside and show him some better methods in a friendly way then maybe his dog will have a better life

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Most dogs don't really get trained like a working dog would and it leads (sorry) to the infuriation of their owners, most just shout or get angry. It's cute when they're puppies, 8 years down the line not so much.

It really depends what you mean by hit, if I thought the dog was being physically abused I'd phone the police, if I didn't I'd leave them alone. I'm generally of the opinion that 90% of the dog owners I meet shouldn't have dogs but unless they're actually being harmed there's no point getting involved. People have different views on what is cruel, many people think having a couple of well trained gun dogs in a kennel is cruel and a pampered sofa dog that has taken the place of alpha will be happier. Each to their own I guess.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Sorry to hear you had to experience that and good on you for challenging him.

If you see him again, and he’s hitting his dog, I’d suggest you give him a taste of his own medicine. 

There’s no excuse for animal cruelty. 

In reply to Frank the Husky:

I'd probably have a go like you did too.

There;s absolutely no need to hit/hurt a dog.  Positive re-enforcement works.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

You did the right thing.

The old guy is probably use to beating children as well and deserves to be challenged.

 

In reply to Frank the Husky:

My terrier, for no apparent reason, once bit a man on his bare leg completely out of the blue. The man was shocked and hurt. I beat the dog in front of him. I wanted to make sure she never did it again. I didn't want to have to put her down you see. She's sixteen now and she's had a good life. 

I agree that kindness is best in training a dog, but sometimes you have to learn from dogs' behaviour. A member of the pack who steps out of line will be killed by the leader. Dogs are wolves, all of them, best never forget   

In reply to Frank the Husky:

On meeting him again, I might start off vaguely apologising for pestering him, and try and strike up a conversation about dogs and ways of training them?

In reply to Pete Pozman:

Dogs don't bite out of the blue. They have a reason and if you are watching their body language carefully then they will show you that they are uncomfortable long before they reach the stage of biting. It could be fear, it could be prey drive, it could be guarding. If you are watching your dog then you should spot the signs and remove them from that situation.

If you beat a dog, they may associate the bearing with something other than your intention. So they might decide that they are being beaten because the man was wearing shorts, so then they become scared of men in shorts, and fear can result in biting so you develop a pattern!!

Please read up on modern dog training, it's much more science based than it used to be.

In reply to girlymonkey:

To be honest I'd be scared of men in shorts in this weather!

In reply to tehmarks:

Do you go round biting them too?

 

In reply to Frank the Husky:

If you're worried about the safety of the dog then report him to the RSPCA with whatever you know that could lead them to him. If it's more that you disapprove of his rough training method, want to communicate that and lead him to other options I think you've probably already burned your bridges but there's nothing stopping you trying again. A repeat of the past conversation is unlikely to get you anywhere.

jk

In reply to Frank the Husky:

local authority dog warden might know if this is isolated, or if it's a pattern of behaviour.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Taser the prick and re-home his dog?

In reply to Frank the Husky:

I guess you could subtly find out where he lives and report him following that?

In reply to Frank the Husky:

I think you were right to challenge him

There was a guy living round my area, who used to do similar stuff to his dog, a lot of people saw him and he was reported to the RSPCA and they came over and took the dog away from him, not fair on a dog to be treated that way.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

I think most dog owners / lovers would have done the same. Wish I could suggest what you should do if you meet him again but I'm not sure. I understand wingeing old gits but not miserable old bastards.

In reply to jasonC abroad:

 

Did you ever find out what happened to the dog once the charity who think they know best got hold of it ??

 

It may have been better off with it's owner

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Hey

we are Buxworth based, just down the road (bit nicer than chinley????). My wife, who is dog and most animals , mad, suggests you take a photo of him next time, send it to us(pm us for email) and we will happily post on FB, to hopefully shame the silly old fxxker and stop mistreatment of his dog.

good effort in challenging him in the first place, there are some crazy old folk in chinley, who are married to their own sisters.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Ive got about ten seconds with Archie!

 

In reply to chris wyatt:

10 seconds sounds like luxury! Benji has huge hackles and they go up in a nanosecond! He goes from calm to reactive very quickly, but he is improving. We are working on building tolerance to frustration and calmness which is starting to make him easier to work with. It can all be worked on, but it takes patience!

In reply to arch:

There's a lot which isn't right with the RSPCA, or there certainly has been, but I can't imagine that any dog which is regularly beaten is going to feel at ease and safe around it's owner? 

My friend's dog which was abused (to the point that her old next door neighbour couldn't stand hearing it anymore, and went round and took her off her ex-owners in a way which brooked no arguing)  can need quite a lot of reassurance, and always likes to lean against somebody who has any love for her, and if there's a loud bang, she'll turn into a quivering heap for the next half an hour and can shrink into herself. She's become her new owner's shadow and is very happy, but her abuse has definitely left a mark. I'm glad she was rescued even if it wasn't legally done.

To be an abused dog can be a fearful existence, Tess will whine in her dreams sometimes. 

In reply to Timmd:

Someone I know had his dogs taken by the police and left with an animal charity. No charges were ever placed on him. Seven dogs were taken, all were returned, eventually. One of them in a plastic bag, skinned, with its chip removed. They said it had been fighting and was in a bad way and PTS. He never did find out the whole story.

 

The rest of his dogs were in a terrible state. Had to go through a solicitor just to see his own dogs while they were kenneled with them.

In reply to Man city:

Bit nicer than Chinley? How rude!

OK, I'll do that as and when I see him again. He probably isn't on Facebook though...

 

 

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Someone who did this in Lancs was videoed and reported.  He was in court this week.  He got off lightly but thankfully the dog was taken off him.  (The video doesn't autoplay - it's a link to the story)

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/rossendale/haslingden/16055105.Sh...

In reply to girlymonkey:

I agree with all you said but The bloke was very angry, he had done absolutely nothing to deserve being bitten. He was determined to call the police. It was a close run thing for my dog. As I said, she's had a long and happy life ; she's 16 tomorrow.

I read every book in the library about dogs/wolves  in the first flush of my dog mania. I still maintain they are a lot tougher and more ruthless than people who treat  dogs like babies would prefer to believe. 

In reply to Pete Pozman:

It might depend upon the dog, and be a question of degree, too? The abused dog I know of hides if the remote falls off the sofa onto the floor with a bang, and does the shrinking quivering thing.

I dare say you hitting your dog once in it's lifetime wouldn't cause it lasting psychological harm...

 

In reply to Pete Pozman:

It would be unusual for a dog to be put down for biting once, particularly if it wasn't a mauling but a single bite. You may have got fined and told to see a dog behaviourist.

Some dogs are very resilient, others are not. My dog reacts to any kind of 'threat' (which last night was a sledge in someone's front garden!!) with hackles up, barking and snarling. Thankfully he has never bitten, but if he was to be beaten then I am sure he could.

We spend a lot of time working on calmness and developing resilience, and we are seeing a lot of improvements now. So it may seem to you like I am treating my dog like a baby, but actually taking him away from the scary sledge, calming him down and trying again with lots of reinforcement meant that we eventually got past it calmly and on the way back he didn't react. It's a case of changing his emotional state and building calmness in all situations. My dog never gets shouted at, even his 'leave' command is said in a  cheerful voice (and he responds well to it), and this has made a big difference too, scary voices and shouting make him worse. Of course he is on lead all the time so that he can't go after anything scary! It will be a long time until he is an offlead dog!

 

In reply to Frank the Husky:

A friend of mine intervened in similar circumstances last summer and received a headbutt and a broken nose for his troubles.... It can be a dangerous business. 

In reply to Pete Pozman:

With respect, reading every book about dogs/wolves in the library may have given you a slightly outdated view. Similar to the poster mentioning sofas/alpha alpha position and the person who said wolves who get out of line are killed.

Modern behaviour research recognises that dogs are NOT like wolves: feral dog packs do not work like wolf packs. Also older research on wolves was done on packs made by humans in captivity. More recent research on wild wolves has shown that they do not have the strict hirarchy and "alpha /omega status" found in the artificial captive groups.

 

To the op: report to RSPCA/local dog warden and hope the man questions his behaviour next time. 

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Hi Frank. Sorry to hear about this. Think you did the right thing to question the bloke though. Slightly unrelated, but I was glad to see a dog thread on here this morning, as I was going to post about something which really got to me yesterday and I need to vent/seek opinion about. I was out with my dog and had been over on some meadows, walking back you have to cross a small field in which a couple with an alsatian (sic?) were throwing a ball for him/her. I put ed (my dog) back on lead as we walked past. Their dog came charging over (no call back from owner) and after a couple of seconds sniffing then became very aggressive and put it jaws around my dog growling and trying to take him down. I grabbed the dog by the scruff of its neck and pulled it off mine. By this point the couple had come over, I was a bit upset and handed the dog to him and asked him to control his dog. His reaction was to tell me to f off in a laughy way, and that it was only playing. I know dogs reasonably well, it wasn't. My reaction was to tell the guy he shouldn't have a dog he couldn't control off the lead. They didn't care at all. It got me so wound up. As someone said above, so many dog owners shouldn't be allowed to have them. Maybe I was over reacting, but I honestly think that if you can't guarantee your dogs behaviour off the lead, they should go back on it as soon as they need to. Rant over. Phew....

In reply to Frank the Husky:an anecdote from a couple of weeks ago. I was working on a reserve that sees a lot of dog walkers and were passed by a guy with a BIG mastiff. This dog saw my dog tied down to a stake and went bananas- pulled this guy off his feet and went in for my dog. As it happens There were several of us there, but it was his reaction that was interesting. He kept shouting “kick him, kick him”. As it was someone got his harness and pulled it away. But it was scary. I told him to leave the site immediately - it’s public access and often has pre school groups etc, and he got REALLY SWEARY. It was a really aggressive dog, and he obviously had no solution with that dog other than violence. It wouldn’t be my choice of pet, but it didn’t deserve that. 

And yes, I did report it because of the safety issues

In reply to ceri:

This article popped up in a group I am in, ties in nicely with your point about the behaviour research.

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

In reply to Frank the Husky:

I have an issue with owners who use their dogs as a vehicle for their own diminished personalities . The ones who get angry with me if their dog jumps up and rakes my chest with its claws and I tell it to get off. I know the dog isn't trying to dominate me but it hurts. Dogs have no morality . A dog cannot be wicked. But it can be a vehicle for its owners wickedness.

Dogs are single minded in the pursuit of their own needs. The trick in training them is to convince them that their needs are the same as yours  

In reply to girlymonkey:

This is very interesting, and something I have explained endlessly to people who castigate me for e.g.allowing Frank to sleep on my bed or eat before I do. The whole idea of dominance and being the alpha in domestic dogs is nonsense and, like the article says, there is zero evidence to back it up.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Yes, it's sad that it's taking so long for the mainstream to catch up and start actually working with dogs in a better way. Thankfully it is improving.

I don't allow Benji in bedrooms or on furniture, not due to dominance but due to hair and being accepted in other people's houses! Much easier to ask someone to dog sit if they know he's  downstairs and on the floor dog. I sit on the floor with him if we are doing snuggles.

As long as the rules are consistent and are enforced in a kind manner, then what the actual rules are doesn't matter! You make the rules to suit your own house and lifestyle!