Vote: QR codes in guidebook for locating features

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 GarethSL 22 Jan 2018

Dead simple question to gauge how viable this could be for my guidebook...

If available, would you use QR codes in a guidebook to help find the location of suitable parking areas, crags and routes (in this case individual icefalls)?

I am considering this alongside co-ordinates as most people will likely have a smartphone with them as opposed to a map or GPS.

Like for yes, dislike for no.

Comments/ other feedback welcome!

Thanks in advance
 

32
 Brass Nipples 22 Jan 2018
In reply to GarethSL:

 

Just put a mini map where the QR code would go.

 

5
OP GarethSL 22 Jan 2018
In reply to Lion Bakes:

There are of course maps!

1
 Martin W 22 Jan 2018
In reply to GarethSL:

Not sure I understand quite how you envisage people using the QR code but AFAIK you need a data connection for a QR code to work, which might limit its usefulness in remote areas.

At least a printed map doesn't run out of battery or signal!

1
 Greasy Prusiks 22 Jan 2018
In reply to GarethSL:

I thought you were going to paint QR codes at the bottom of routes so climbers could scan them to find route names etc. 

I'm very disappointed, this won't be as entertaining a thread as I'd hoped. 

OP GarethSL 22 Jan 2018
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

Always an option

OP GarethSL 22 Jan 2018
In reply to Martin W:

The idea was first that, for example, the parking location could be scanned then google maps service used for directions whilst driving to the crag. That way you go to exactly where one needs to be. A useful addition I feel as as many places have quite bizarre parking locations which are not the most obvious.

With network its not so much of an issue as the guidebook is for the Trondheim area of Norway with essentially 100% coverage.

I know its not for everyone and the map is more than enough, but for tech-savvy types its a quick way of getting the right location into a device and going.

In reply to GarethSL:

We started using QR codes for parking areas in the 2013 Rockfax (North Wales Climbs) and have used them ever since. Initially we embedded the actual GPS location in the QR code, but we have since changed it to a short URL which we then redirect. This enabled us to make changes if the parking places moved, correct mistakes and make the QR code a little less complicated enabling it to be printed a bit smaller.

It also enabled us to get accurate stats on how often they were used and I was quite surprised that the usage figures were in the several hundreds for most of the guidebooks, particularly the non-UK ones like Mallorca and Dolomites. I can't find the page with these stats at the moment but I'll get Paul to find it so we can recheck.

We haven't done QR codes for the start of routes, and we are unlikely to, since that would be quite a lot of QR codes. We have now geo-located most of our maps on the app versions of our guides, so you can use these to locate yourself to the bottom of a crag from the parking using just a gps signal (which is way more reliable than a data signal). We just released new versions of the Mallorca and Clwyd maps yesterday for this.

Overall I'd say it is a very useful service in printed books for people who use their phones for navigation - scan the code and open it direct into Google Maps (or another navigation map) and it will take you direct to the car park. If you don't use it then at least gps figures are essential to give people the option to input them to their nav apps if they want. For the amount of space it takes up it would seem to me to be an easy decision to take.

Alan

OP GarethSL 22 Jan 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

That's brilliant feedback, thank you!

I was certain I had seen it done before but couldn't for the life of me remember where, hence the inspiration! It's nice to hear that they are actually used as well. the only thing I was really worried about is obsolescence of QR codes. 

Do you have any suggestions for good QR code makers? 

 oldie 22 Jan 2018
In reply to GarethSL:

QR used for "parking, access landmarks and a number of abseil points" in  CC Swanage 2014 guide. Don't have a smartphone myself so can't comment on usefulness and area does much problematic connectivity.

 TonyB 22 Jan 2018
In reply to GarethSL:

Writing the lat long coordinates is useful too. We can type it into our TomTom but cannot scan a QR code. Given the amount of space writing the coordinates would take you could easily do both. I also feel this is useful for visitors, who don't want to pay roaming charges. I guess this isn't a problem with Europeans visiting Norway, but might be useful for people coming from outside the EEA.

 Dr Toph 22 Jan 2018
In reply to HakanT:

we introduced qr codes in conjunction with maps and printed lat-long coordinates in the 2012 7aMax Scottish sport guide (ahead of the curve as usual )

Haven't heard that they are a particular selling point, but they take so little room, there's little lost, and do make it easy for getting navigation to parking spots, where there is more likely to be data coverage.

Found this to be the most convenient tool:

https://gridreferencefinder.com/

Just drop the pin on the map and it will spit out coordinates in various formats and a QR code of your desired size. Easy!

 Stone Muppet 22 Jan 2018

If you do put the coords directly into the URL does that make it possible to use offline? that would be preferred presumably

If you want to make one trackable just pick a popular crag with good coverage for the tracking

In reply to GarethSL:

> Do you have any suggestions for good QR code makers? 

Ours is all done by self-built widgets in InDesign but the one Dr Toph links to looks good.

Be careful of not printing them too small or too near the spine of the book where the pages bend more and the code is difficult to hold flat. Some of our early codes are not very easy to use because of this.

Test them all before you publish by scanning your screen but make sure they are only 100% size on your screen to test the size as well. If you do make a mistake then bouncing them off a server URL is a safer way of doing it but this requires quite a bit of technical know-how to set the system up but well worth it if you can do it.

Alan

In reply to Stone Muppet:

> If you do put the coords directly into the URL does that make it possible to use offline? that would be preferred presumably

This is true. Our system does require you to get a (very small) data connection to bounce the URL off and return the coordinates.

The app version doesn't since the map is in the app so all you need there is the location gps signal.

Alan

 duchessofmalfi 22 Jan 2018

Will guide books still take 8-track cassettes in 10 years?

postcode / GPS coordinates please, QR no thanks

7
 Robert Durran 22 Jan 2018
In reply to GarethSL:

I've absolutely no idea what a QR code is, but if I did, I'm pretty sure I would steer well clear of them.

14
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I've absolutely no idea what a QR code is, but if I did, I'm pretty sure I would steer well clear of them.

Quite right. It's numbers trapped inside a picture, a bit like the villains at the start of the Superman movie.

 Stone Muppet 23 Jan 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm not a big fan of QR, but, I'm sure all our computers *would* take 8 track cassettes if it was just a matter of a software patch

 tehmarks 23 Jan 2018
In reply to GarethSL:

It's surprising how many dinosaurs are lurking without comment. As long as they're in addition to a mini map rather than as a replacement, I'm all for it.

 Robert Durran 23 Jan 2018
In reply to Stone Muppet:

> I'm not a big fan of QR, but, I'm sure all our computers *would* take 8 track cassettes if it was just a matter of a software patch

I thought computers moved on from cassettes to floppy discs about 40 years ago.

Or maybe I just have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Post edited at 13:43
1
 HeMa 23 Jan 2018
In reply to GarethSL:

> The idea was first that, for example, the parking location

^^^

This, as quite often the possible problems in with access in Scandinavia have nothing to do with climbing itself, but parking or approach.

And yes, a QR link to googlemaps location (for parking) would be perfect (together with WSG coordinates). If the approach is not evident and easily show on approach map (or verbally), perhaps a QR code for that is also useful.

Are you planning on also upkeeping the access notes & changes? If so, a QR link for each crag would be good as it will give people possibility to verify (a'la in BMC RAD) if there are any restrictions. If you don't already have a place for this info, 27crags 'might' be a viable option. You don't need to include more info there than list the routes and preferebly parking & access notes. After all, content online is a heck of a lot easier to update than paper copies. And this should not really cannibalize on the book sales that much (where as if you were to place all the nice route-pics there, it might). Or you could also utilize the material produced for the book and also "publish" the content as a premium crag in 27crags. Access notes, list of routes and maps are available to everyone, but the detailed topos are not. 

 

OP GarethSL 23 Jan 2018
In reply to HeMa:

> Are you planning on also upkeeping the access notes & changes? 

Fortunatley everything is here on UKC too

In reply to HeMa:

> Or you could also utilize the material produced for the book and also "publish" the content as a premium crag in 27crags. 

Or you could do it via the UKC Logbooks and the Rockfax app and help contribute to the data and running of UKC at the same time.

Alan

 HeMa 23 Jan 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Indeed. But to be honest UKC isn’t that widely used platform in Norway. 

 

There is also the Norsk Klättreföringen db. Though I can’t remember If they are actually upkeeping a proper Access db, like BMC RAD. 

 HeMa 23 Jan 2018
In reply to GarethSL:

Good. 

 

Though  truth be told, neither UKC or 27Crags are proper Masterdata locations. But also utilizing an existing platform makes things easier. 

In reply to HeMa:

> Though  truth be told, neither UKC or 27Crags are proper Masterdata locations. But also utilizing an existing platform makes things easier. 

The Rockfax app certainly is and all the info on the app is linked to UKC, and it exists and is open for new areas from third party publishers.

Sorry for the advert-speak but we have created something pretty amazing with the Rockfax app which  I am keen to tell people about. (Before someone says it though - yes I know the Android version hasn't been finished. It is actually a measure of how sophisticated the iOS version is that it is taking this long).

Alan

 HeMa 23 Jan 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Prolly not, as one factor for master data is that you fully control and own it. Generally the full control is limited on all these options. 

OP GarethSL 23 Jan 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

With that in mind, would it be possible to create a rockfax app that supports my area? 

 Mr. Lee 24 Jan 2018
In reply to Martin W:

> Not sure I understand quite how you envisage people using the QR code but AFAIK you need a data connection for a QR code to work, which might limit its usefulness in remote areas.

> At least a printed map doesn't run out of battery or signal!

Given that it's a Norwegian guide I think you'll be hard pressed to find a significant mobile data black spot. I've never needed to resort to a paper map in the car due to complete loss of signal. In fact I don't even own one. Google Maps doesn't even need data once the route is cached. Also I don't see how running out of battery should be an issue since navigation is done in the morning after presumably any phone has been recharged. Plus I'm sure most people have a charger in their car anyway.

Gareth, I've been using QR codes (I've always just called them barcodes) in a couple of guidebooks and it has definitely made things simpler than manually entering coordinates. A map showing the route between the car park and route would still be helpful I reckon if the approach is vaguely complicated. Even if you know where A and B are you still need to know the way between them. This is basically the same as the Gudbrandsdalen ice guide. I'd still want some sort of map overview of the whole area as well so that I have a rough idea about locality of climbs. 

 steve taylor 24 Jan 2018
In reply to oldie:

> QR used for "parking, access landmarks and a number of abseil points" in  CC Swanage 2014 guide. Don't have a smartphone myself so can't comment on usefulness and area does much problematic connectivity.

They were pretty easy to integrate into the guide and a few people have commented on their usefulness. As Alan has said, make sure they are tested thoroughly prior to going to print.

They are only a supplement to Don Sargeant's excellent maps though!

 

Post edited at 08:57
In reply to GarethSL:

> With that in mind, would it be possible to create a rockfax app that supports my area? 

Which area?

We can turn most guidebooks into packages on our app now as long as they aren't too text based and have good quality crag photos. For us to actually go to the area an write a guide(book) is obviously a much bigger job.

Alan

In reply to HeMa:

> Prolly not, as one factor for master data is that you fully control and own it. Generally the full control is limited on all these options. 

'Fully control' and 'fully own' are different things. Why would your 'control and own' master data situation be desirable?

We don't claim to own all of our data since so much of it comes from external sources - UKC readers, previous guidebooks, local feedback. When you buy a climbing guidebook, or app package, all you are really buying is the presentation of some well researched and up-to-date data, data that should really belong to everyone. 

Alan

 HeMa 24 Jan 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

> 'Fully control' and 'fully own' are different things. Why would your 'control and own' master data situation be desirable?

Because full control gives you the full control to it. Owner ship does not.

Hypotethically speaking, let's play that I wish to do and electronic guidebook (to support the paper one I'm doing). Generally I will need to contact the distribution channel (Rockfax) and since an agreement. Most likely as the content provider, I will own the content  while the distribution channel owns the system/channel/framework. Compensation on purchases will be defined in the agreement (I'll guess the content owne get between 50 and 70% of the income from said e-guide). Now what happens if for some reason I'm not happy how the distribuition channel works. I'm sure it is in the agreement, that as content owner I can ask for you to take down the material. There might be a penalty or not. So then I pick a new distribution channel, great... it works like a charm.... but too bad the QR codes point to the 1st distribution channel...

See the dilemma. This is the problem with any 'hosted' service (well, e-guidebook). 

Which is why for proper master data management you do have full control of everything... and that be also the place where the QR codes point.

That said, I'm thinking that in a few years more sales will start coming in from e-side of things rather than print... already happening with quickly developping aspects of our sport (like bouldering). In which the print is pretty much out of date already when its printed. But on some aspects, the status que will not change and printed books will remain strong... after all there's not really the feel to fiddle around with your tablet or phone than to sit by a bonfire and browse through a nice paper guidebook...

1
In reply to HeMa:

> So then I pick a new distribution channel, great... it works like a charm.... but too bad the QR codes point to the 1st distribution channel...

> See the dilemma. This is the problem with any 'hosted' service (well, e-guidebook). 

That would be a miniscule problem compared with the immense hassle of changing e-platform, which in turn is a tiny amount of work when compared with creating one for yourself.

In this thread most talk is of having the QR codes containing gps coords only, it is only me who suggested they bounce off a server, but that server could easily be an external hosted for the purpose of an agreement.

I don't think I really get what your point is here to be honest.

Alan

 

 Dave Flanagan 24 Jan 2018
In reply to HeMa:

> ... already happening with quickly developping aspects of our sport (like bouldering). In which the print is pretty much out of date already when its printed.

It's always a concern that just after you realise your guide that some massive new area will be discovered but does it ever really happen? I think most guidebook writers are savvy enough not to rush into producing a guide (it takes years anyway) to a quickly growing area, probably to a fault ie. delaying publication to make sure that every single area and problem is included (North Wales bouldering for example?).

 

 HeMa 24 Jan 2018
In reply to Dave Flanagan:

> It's always a concern that just after you realise your guide that some massive new area will be discovered but does it ever really happen? 

Yes, it does...

And it happens in even well established places like 'Bleau, Averstal and so on... And even at mere mortals grades (sub F7s).

'New' places are the worst, as prints... as they are rapidly developping. And for these community/crowd based approach is rather good (or it can be).

 HeMa 24 Jan 2018
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

> That would be a miniscule problem compared with the immense hassle of changing e-platform, which in turn is a tiny amount of work when compared with creating one for yourself.

Yes and now... it depend on how you wish to use it and which platform. Some are rather easy to create content. Now creating a new distribution system, yeah a few years of work.

But that was not the point. It was that there should be *one* master data location, which the author has has naturally full ownership, but also full control. And that data/location is then referred/linked in the real distribution channels. In this case it could indeed be simple a domain hosted somehere, where the QR codes point to, and then fro each code the reply would be the up-to-date coordinates.

> In this thread most talk is of having the QR codes containing gps coords only, it is only me who suggested they bounce off a server, but that server could easily be an external hosted for the purpose of an agreement.

Yes, I'm sure it would be... but situations do change, and you'd still be locked to service provider (ie.  no full control) thats main business isn't the Master Data Repository.

> I don't think I really get what your point is here to be honest.

Real IT governence, and segredation and protection of the content creator.

As said, RockfaxApp (with UKC logbook integration, or simply UKC Logbook) is one possible way of achieving this from the use point of view. But as said, creating printed links to a non governed/controlled (by the author) access-point can be problematic if for reason or another something changes. 27Crags is the same. Both are business, and they can change their way of work, change URL addresses or go bust. And all of these can render the QR links obsolete. Now, are the risks & problems worth the effort... depends on the costs and what they want.

For Gareths initial need a simple selection of hosted files in say the local clubs webserver might be the easiest way (as in include the coordinates of the parking, perhaps more info). It won't be a flashy as being a Rockfax App guide, but I'll get the job done, and to an extent give the author more (but not complete) control of the content and access.


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