Avalanche in Nethermost Gully, Cumbria + Lost axe

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 EllieWoods 18 Jan 2018

For anyone interested, 4 of us were caught in an avalanche today, just as we were about to start up Nethermost Gully. Luckily all ok, but it was reasonably substantial, with one of us going around 100m. We are suitably chastened and will hopefully make a better route choice next time.

In the process we lost 4 axes - we did a scan of the area but no sign on the surface. It was too big an area and to risky to try and dig the whole lot. They should emerge when the snow melts - if anyone comes across one or more of them, please get in touch ????

 Phil Scott 18 Jan 2018
In reply to EllieWoods:

Glad to hear everyone was OK - hope you get the axes back!

 Jim Lancs 18 Jan 2018
In reply to EllieWoods:

Yes, glad everyone was okay and hope you get your gear back.

I know you probably want to put the day behind you, but you do have an ideal opportunity to put together an 'avalanche case study' from which you and the rest of us might learn some more. The Fell Top Assessor's report from yesterday is still on the Met Office website along with recent weather reports from St Bees and Shap weather stations, the trace of the last week's temperatures on the Red Tarn face of Helvellyn are on the BMC website and Patterdale MRT would happily give details of all the other avalanches there's been over the years in Nethermost Gully, many of which had a much worse outcome.

Might as well try and make the most of what has probably been a shitty day.

 

 GrahamUney 18 Jan 2018
In reply to EllieWoods:

Glad you're all OK. I'd be interested to know if you just didn't know about the Fell Top Assessor reports that me and my colleagues compile, or if you just didn't get around to checking the report yesterday? This isn't a 'told you so' as I realise that you can't have read the report or you wouldn't have gone anywhere near a gully climb today, but it would be good to know if you just aren't aware of the service so that we can try to get the word out there more. 

Hope this hasn't put you off the winter hills Ellie. Take care.

Graham Uney

Fell Top Assessor.

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 AJM79 18 Jan 2018
In reply to GrahamUney:

Nicely put Graham, plenty of folk seem to think that if it's white then it's bound to be fine for climbing on. I think peoples self sufficiency and ability to make sensible decisions for themselves in the hills is diminishing, it used to be mainly walkers in trainers but I have seen many climbers making just as foolish decisions in the hills recently. Thanks for the reports they are an invaluable resource for anyone venturing into the hills.

On a different note I'm glad everyone involved is o.k

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OP EllieWoods 18 Jan 2018
In reply to GrahamUney:

Hi Graham,

Now that it's mentioned, I was vaguely aware of fell top assessors reports, but had forgotten about them and hadn't consulted them (I very rarely winter climb in the lakes). I had focused on watching the weather over the last couple of weeks, the Sais forecast and watching which routes had been logged on UKC in the last couple of weeks and reading any comments (although I did of course realise that the fresh snow changed all this). 

The UKC conditions page has been great for that. Now that I click on the Met Office link, I can see that it takes you to the fell top assessors report. However, I had previously just assumed it took you to the standard met office app, which I was already checking separately. One thing which would have helped me personally is if that icon on the UKC conditions page looked different from the standard met office icon - or even a separate icon for fell top assessors report. I will certainly be reading it now that I'm aware of it - great service.

Thanks

Ellie

 

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 GrahamUney 18 Jan 2018
In reply to EllieWoods:

No worries Ellie. Just glad you're all safe. The Fell Top Assessor report is on our own website www.lakedistrictweatherline.co.uk 

OP EllieWoods 18 Jan 2018
In reply to Jim Lancs:

Hi Jim,

Thanks - we are counting ourselves lucky we got off so lightly - getting our gear back would just be a bonus.

As you can imagine, it has certainly prompted plenty of post-event analysis and discussion amongst ourselves (involving plenty of self-chastisement...).  We'd all be open to anything we can share with others and collectively learn from. One of the things we had wondered about was if there was somewhere that avalanche events get centrally logged and are accessible publicly - we weren't aware of anything. I will contact Patterdale MRT and see what they suggest.

See also my response to Graham about the fell top assessors report.

Ellie

 

 GrahamUney 18 Jan 2018
In reply to EllieWoods:

These reports and logged events are only any use if people read them though Ellie!

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 Trangia 18 Jan 2018
In reply to EllieWoods:

Glad to hear you are all ok.

So bugger the axes! It's you guys that matter

Post edited at 19:16
 Misha 18 Jan 2018
In reply to EllieWoods:

Good to hear there were not injuries. Lots of fresh unconsolidated snow = stay out of gullies.

 timjones 18 Jan 2018
In reply to GrahamUney:

> Glad you're all OK. I'd be interested to know if you just didn't know about the Fell Top Assessor reports that me and my colleagues compile, or if you just didn't get around to checking the report yesterday? This isn't a 'told you so' as I realise that you can't have read the report or you wouldn't have gone anywhere near a gully climb today, but it would be good to know if you just aren't aware of the service so that we can try to get the word out there more. 

 

That's a good question and one that prompted me to try and find the reports on google without any prior knowledge of their "Fell Top Assessor reports" title.

They aren't easy to find.

 

 

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 Mountain Llama 18 Jan 2018
In reply to GrahamUney:

Hi Graham

The fell top assessments were previously on the winter conditions pages on ukc as a direct link - this did take some badgering to get the site to do this.

Unfortunately,  they have now been replaced by the bmc turf links which seems a retrograde step.

Maybe both the links could be incorporated?

Cheers Davey

 

Post edited at 19:48
 John Ww 18 Jan 2018
In reply to timjones:

Indeed - it my be me being thick, but

a) I didn’t know about Fell Top Assessor reports

b) I can’t seem to find anywhere on UKC forums which links to the above.

As suggested above, an icon or some other easily-recognised and obvious way in to the website may be something to develop for dummies like me

 

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 Dark-Cloud 18 Jan 2018
In reply to John Ww:

It’s not really that difficult to find, first google hit when searching:

lakes fell conditions

lakes weather conditions

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 Crofty 18 Jan 2018
In reply to John Ww:  This is the link I use, the ground conditions runs through the winter. I had planned to go over on Wednesday with a friend. After reading the Fell Top Assessors report on Tuesday and a look at the forecast we went to Leeds Wall instead!

 

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/mountain-forecasts/lake-distric...

Post edited at 20:00
 Dave the Rave 18 Jan 2018
In reply to GrahamUney:

> These reports and logged events are only any use if people read them though Ellie!

Sanctimonious or sarcastic:

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 timjones 18 Jan 2018
In reply to Dark-Cloud:

It's not obvious when you search for lake district avalanche forecast which is what many climbers are going to do.

I'd also suggest that it isn't all that obvious where the conditions report is using either of your search terms, the results look more like weather forecasts than condition reports.

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 Dark-Cloud 18 Jan 2018
In reply to timjones:

Really ? Second search term and this is what google gives me:

A day of squally snow and hail showers, with fresh snow right down to valley level in many parts of Cumbria. On Helvellyn the snow has gathered on lee slopes, and the depth varies enormously. ... In sheltered places there is a dramatic build up of snow that is very poorly bonded to the layers beneath

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 timjones 18 Jan 2018
In reply to Dark-Cloud:

"Lakes weather forecast" is giving you that result?

I get a page of results and none of them look like they will lead to a conditions report rather than a weather forecast.

A few pounds spent on a domain name that sounded the part could really increase the uptake.

 Dark-Cloud 18 Jan 2018
In reply to timjones:

Actually “lakes fell forecast” my mistake but, that’s the result, the main domain is clear enough I think, anyway, we digress, glad they are all ok but gullies were not that place to be today, anybody should have been able to guess that, I expect I will get some dislikes for that comment but hey ho........

 Sophie G. 18 Jan 2018
In reply to GrahamUney:

Just to say (1) glad no one was hurt and (2) like others, I wasn't aware of the Fell Top Assessors' reports. I've never winter climbed in the Lakes (I live in Dundee) but if I was going to, and one of these days I hope I will, I'd do some meteo assessment first of course--but I wouldn't know to look for those.

 Jim Lancs 18 Jan 2018
In reply to EllieWoods:

I certainly think a map that compiles a record of all the sites in the Lakes that have been known to avalanche in living memory would help a) highlight repeat offending sites and b) reinforce the message that avalanches in the Lakes are far from un-common. Snow is snow and there's no reason that there are any less avalanches in the Lakes than elsewhere in the UK when adjusted for both the limited number of 'snowy' days and the limited area where avalanches might occur. I don't suppose you'll ever now forget one avalanche 'hot spot', but when you come back to climb here, at least remember that amongst a myriad of other places, Central Gully on Great End is equalling notorious. Skew Ghyll would also get an honourable mention as the place we all got avalanched on an avalanche training awareness day back in the 70s. You are not alone!

Whilst others have highlighted some improvements that could be made to links to various safety and information websites, it's probably more important to continue to hone your own personal avalanche nous. A few days monitoring wind directions, strengths, temperatures, snowfall etc will allow you to avoid those slope aspects most at risk. Even without seeing Graham's Fell Top Assessment, our recent strong winds, significant snowfall, hard packed base and continuous cold conditions would flag Nethermost Gully as a scary prospect.

 

 AJM79 18 Jan 2018

In reply to

Forecasts, whether avalanche, weather or just reports of conditions found on the ground should only be part of a climbers decision on where is safe to approach/climb. They should also be able to make an assessment of weather and snow conditions themselves while on the hill and change their plans accordingly. Surely this is part of being a good climber. It doesn't matter if you can climb grade VI with your right hand tied behind your back if you get avalanched on the approach. Plus you can't put the blame on the fell top assessors report being tricky to find, although it is linked on the conditions page on the met office weather report.

 

 bonebag 18 Jan 2018
In reply to EllieWoods:

Sorry to hear that and glad everyone is ok. I bet it was a very scary experience. Hopefully you will get your axes back. But as an earlier post said the axes aren't so important most of all you are all safe and I expect it's an experience you'll never forget.

I've never been avalanched but have seen a few after the event including the Lakes in November 2016 which surprised me and even more surprising in the Peak on Kinder. It's easy to think they only happen in Scotland and be off your guard south of the boarder but like Jim Lancs says snow is snow and it can avalanche anywhere given the right conditions.

I saw the weatherline forecast yesterday and noticed the avalanche threat which rang a few alarm bells. Surprised me to see it for the Lakes myself. I have been planning a trip for several days but have been waiting to see how things develop. Was planning on tomorrow but will give it a miss now especially as more snow is forecast and the winds are still high. That next climb will be there another time even if it means waiting a while.

Have been watching weatherline for several years and find it very useful in helping to plan winter days out. They have great photos too to tempt you out.

Hopefully you're not put off by your experience today and will return for a successful  climb on another occasion having learned some good stuff today about what can happen.

Be safe and have fun.

In reply to Mountain Llama:

> The fell top assessments were previously on the winter conditions pages on ukc as a direct link - this did take some badgering to get the site to do this.

> Unfortunately,  they have now been replaced by the bmc turf links which seems a retrograde step.

> Maybe both the links could be incorporated?

I'll look at getting that back in there at the start of next week. Thanks for the feedback.

 

In reply to EllieWoods:

This tale defies belief, glad you survived!

See posting at 3pm today - https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/winter_climbing/lakes_easy_routes_avoidin...

DC

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 Brass Nipples 18 Jan 2018
In reply to GrahamUney:

 

I wonder if if it worth having Avalanche risk posted in key car parks like they do in Glen Coe?

 

3
In reply to EllieWoods:

> Hi Jim,

> Thanks - we are counting ourselves lucky we got off so lightly - getting our gear back would just be a bonus.

> As you can imagine, it has certainly prompted plenty of post-event analysis and discussion amongst ourselves (involving plenty of self-chastisement...).  We'd all be open to anything we can share with others and collectively learn from.

Very pleased you are all alive, but can't believe in the conditions today that you went to that place!!

DC

 

 

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 Mountain Llama 19 Jan 2018
In reply to Martin McKenna - Rockfax:

Thanks Martin 

 GrahamUney 19 Jan 2018
In reply to EllieWoods:

Thanks for all the comments about Weatherline and our role as Fell Top Assessors. For those who aren't aware, www.lakedistrictweatherline.co.uk is a year round weather forecast service run by the Lake District National Park Authority. During the winter months they employ a small team of Fell Top Assessors, (Graham Uney, Jon Bennett and Zac Poulton) to climb Helvellyn every day and to write a ground conditions report. This report is published on the Weatherline website (above) above the daily weather forecast. Hope that helps.

 

Graham Uney. Fell Top Assessor.

 wercat 19 Jan 2018
In reply to GrahamUney:

Hi Graham,

 

as a frequenter of the Helvellyn area I've met the assessors quite often and I really value the service - even going back to the days when you had to use a public callbox to get the conditions!

The really surprising thing here seems to be a divide between those who know and use your service and those that have never heard of it.   Would it be an idea to try and get the many outdoor magazines to highlight its availability and value in the run up and during winter?

 

Apologies for suggesting something you may have already done.

 GrahamUney 19 Jan 2018
In reply to wercat:

Thanks. We get a mention in most ofbthe outdoor magazines at the start of every winter season, including a major feature in one of them this month. We also appear on TV four or five times each season promoting the service, and if course we have a loyal social media following too. The Weatherline website gets over a million unique visitors a year, so the service is very well used. 

I guess there will always be people who just don't know about us!

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

More snow this morning North Lakes. Temperature rise coming Saturday night/Sunday morning so the avalanche risk will be as high as it can be.

Stay safe and avoid the obvious death-traps. Biggest avalanche I have ever seen in these parts was by the roadside 200-400 metres above SL, very low level.

DC

 Mark Collins 19 Jan 2018
In reply to EllieWoods:

Glad you're all ok and thanks for posting.

Your findings correlate well with the Glencoe avalanche forecast for yesterday, which I'm currently using as very rough rule of thumb as to avalanche hazard in the Lake District:

https://www.sais.gov.uk/glencoe/

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 AJM79 19 Jan 2018
In reply to Mark Collins:

You might as well say i'm using the ingredients list on a box of shreddies as a very rough guide, different mountains, hundreds of miles apart which have experienced different weather over the last week. I fail to see how this can help anyone? 

 olddirtydoggy 19 Jan 2018
In reply to Mark Collins:

Better checking either ground conditions UK on Facebook or the assessors report on Helvelyn.

 Mark Collins 19 Jan 2018
In reply to AJM79:

Wind blowing in roughly the same direction over the same period of time in both locations causes snow to lie on roughly the same slope aspect. Haven't tried the Shreddies thing, will give it a go next time

 Joak 19 Jan 2018
In reply to AJM79:

Aye vert true. Despite the Glencoe, Lochaber and Creag Meagaidh forecast areas being next door neighbours, the avalanche risk for each of them can sometimes be poles apart. 

 Mark Collins 19 Jan 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

> Better checking either ground conditions UK on Facebook or the assessors report on Helvelyn.

Thanks I do, but love the conciseness of those pizza charts.

mick taylor 19 Jan 2018
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Totally agree.

All this discussion about how easy to find  (or not) the various forecasts are is a total red herring.  They are all excellent, and all exceptionally easy to find (weatherline was top of my search when i tried just then).

Anyone with an ounce of knowledge on such matters would have avoided the place (which know like the back of my hand).

Glad the folks are OK - they are lucky to be alive.

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mick taylor 19 Jan 2018
In reply to Mark Collin

Sorry but i think you are way off.  its not even a rough guide.  key aspect of avalanche forecasting is the weather/conditions history and make up of the snow pack and predicted events (temp,rise, snowfall predictions etc).  all these are likely to be VERY different between the two areas.

 

 olddirtydoggy 19 Jan 2018
In reply to Mark Collins:

Start one for the lake district.

 Mark Collins 20 Jan 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I would like to see one, but best left for the experts which clearly I am not.

 Jamie B 20 Jan 2018

Everyone likes gullies. This is a problem because avalanches also like gullies.

 

 phizz4 20 Jan 2018
In reply to EllieWoods:

What did we (the older ones amongst us) do before the internet? We used our knowledge, our experience, common sense, maybe dug a snow pit, or just worked on the basis of keeping out of gullies after fresh snow fall. It seems to be that today we are looking for someone (SAIS, Weatherline etc) to tell us if it is or isn't safe, therefore taking the responsibility out of our own hands.

1
 olddirtydoggy 20 Jan 2018
In reply to phizz4:

There are some great vids up on youtube to educate yourself like the simple snowpack test.

 Simon Caldwell 20 Jan 2018
In reply to phizz4:

> What did we (the older ones amongst us) do before the internet?

In many cases, we made the same mistakes as Ellie and the others, but because there was no internet, nobody beyond our immediate friends ever knew about it.

 

redsonja 20 Jan 2018
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

That's very true. I'm amazed I'm still alive really when I think back!

 Luke90 20 Jan 2018
In reply to Dark-Cloud:

> It’s not really that difficult to find, first google hit when searching:

Perhaps it's worth mentioning that Google personalises search results a lot these days. If you already know about and visit the reports, Google is probably more likely to think you're looking for them. You certainly can't assume that the results you see for certain search terms match up with what others see. If I google "UKC", for example, I get the expected result but I'm pretty sure that my dog-obsessed neighbour would see results about the United Kennel Club.

For me, if I google "lake district avalanche reports", I do get lakedistrictweatherline.co.uk as the second result but if I didn't already know that was the right URL from this thread, the summary text that Google presents would have made me think it wasn't what I was looking for. The MWIS site in pole position looks much more promising, even though it actually only gives Scottish avalanche reports. Here's a screenshot of my results: https://i.imgur.com/K8mpDGM.png

A bit of SEO on the Lake District Weatherline might be worthwhile. The homepage doesn't mention a lot of search terms that I could imagine people using when searching for it. Even though the most recent report is warning that there is a risk of avalanches, it never actually uses the term avalanche, nor is that word anywhere else on the homepage. It's in the Twitter feed lots of times but I can't imagine that Google pays as much attention to that when spidering the site.

Post edited at 18:33
 smithaldo 20 Jan 2018
In reply to EllieWoods: If Norrie was still hear this thread would be amazingly frank at what you did.

Dave gives it a good go but he will never beat the master. 

 

 

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 Mountainz 21 Jan 2018
In reply to EllieWoods:

Hi Ellie. Glad you survived the experience. Have been compiling avalanche reports for the Lake District for the last few years so, if you're happy to give them, would be interested in anymore details you have?

Likewise anyone else who has avalanche reports that I haven't managed to track down, would be very interested to hear from you.

Current reports at http://www.mountainz.co.uk/lake-district-avalanche-reports

Cheers

Zac - another one of the Fell Top Assessors!

OP EllieWoods 21 Jan 2018
In reply to Mountainz:

Thanks Zac - I'll message you the details.

Ellie 

 Sean Kelly 21 Jan 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

There are some great vids up on youtube to educate yourself like the simple snowpack test.

This would have been of limited use as the actual avalanche was mostly snow from a collapsing cornice, which was a monster as far as the Lakes is concerned. I will post a piccy of it when I get a minute. Granted that a gully is not the best place to be after or during heavy snowfall. There was a considerably quantity of graupel within the snowpack, but the cornice did the real damage. Incidently the cornice is once again  a monster so considerable snow drifting off the summit plateau as this is mostly ice and wind-scoured. In conclusion the ridges were quite a safe option and provided wonderful sport, with Saturday providing a superb day on the hill with hardly any wind and brilliant afternoon sunshine. A day from the gods!

 

 

 Phil Scott 22 Jan 2018
In reply to Mountainz:

I'm sure Graham noted some avalanche debris in Mousthwaite Comb last week.

 francois 22 Jan 2018
In reply to EllieWoods:

Hi Ellie,

glad to hear you guys were ok despite the 100m accelerated descent. Have you ever had a chance to read this book: http://www.bmcshop.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=5477? It's quite an interesting read.

Francois

 

 

Post edited at 09:39
 olddirtydoggy 25 Jan 2018
In reply to EllieWoods:

Today we have recovered 2 of your lost axes. Check your messages please.


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