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A group of walkers were rescued in the Lake District at the weekend when one of their number got too high on cannabis to come back down without assistance.Read more
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In reply to UKC/UKH News:
Is there ever a situation where mountain rescue should decide not to give assistance? e.g. in this case, the group was on easy terrain, not far from their 'base' and with night time weather forecast to be mild and dry. It would be a tough call to make and I suppose there are any number of 'what ifs' that end up with a call out being the only option in a lot of cases.
Is there ever a situation where mountain rescue should decide not to give assistance? e.g. in this case, the group was on easy terrain, not far from their 'base' and with night time weather forecast to be mild and dry. It would be a tough call to make and I suppose there are any number of 'what ifs' that end up with a call out being the only option in a lot of cases.
In reply to Jimbo C:
It does happen sometimes eg. Wasdale team incident report from August 23rd ...
Another lost-but-otherwise-okay group was directed off the hill by phone on the same day, which happens quite often when they can get GPS co-ords off the callers phone.
It does happen sometimes eg. Wasdale team incident report from August 23rd ...
> The team was alerted to a group of walkers reporting themselves lost in the Scafell Pike area. Without a clear location, difficulty recontacting them and a reasonable weather forecast it was decided to wait until the morning to see if they made their way off the mountain, which they did without team assistance.
Another lost-but-otherwise-okay group was directed off the hill by phone on the same day, which happens quite often when they can get GPS co-ords off the callers phone.
Post edited at 13:44
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In reply to UKC/UKH News:
Unbelievable..... the MRT have put themselves at risk to rescue these idiots, whilst other far more worthy cases are potentially missed - I hope they send them the bill for all costs incurred....
SP
Unbelievable..... the MRT have put themselves at risk to rescue these idiots, whilst other far more worthy cases are potentially missed - I hope they send them the bill for all costs incurred....
SP
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In reply to sweetpea:
you sound like the daily mail. intentionally climbing off the ground and placing yourself in danger on purpose for fun is a dumb idea as well- but its ok for you to be rescued because us climbers are in pursuit of some noble cause. MRT exist to get people to safety from the mountains and crags, and they volunteer to do it because they are good people sharing valuable skill and time. just because someones an idiot doesn't mean they should be ignored when in need. to reiterate- they are stupid, mountain rescue are an incredible thing, you sound like the daily mail.
you sound like the daily mail. intentionally climbing off the ground and placing yourself in danger on purpose for fun is a dumb idea as well- but its ok for you to be rescued because us climbers are in pursuit of some noble cause. MRT exist to get people to safety from the mountains and crags, and they volunteer to do it because they are good people sharing valuable skill and time. just because someones an idiot doesn't mean they should be ignored when in need. to reiterate- they are stupid, mountain rescue are an incredible thing, you sound like the daily mail.
Post edited at 14:02
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In reply to Doghouse:
Yes it started quite well with an accurate report from a local journalist then a very balanced response from a member of Wasdale MRT. He pointed out that like other first responders they do not judge the situation at the time they simply do what is necessary to get people to safety. A point reinforced by a Health worker later. Both suggested that education after the event might be better than charging people.
Unfortunately as soon as a few listeners come in with the extreme views Vine resorts to mockery & hyperbole and the article loses its seriousness. Not an uncommon event and why I don't usually listen to him.
Yes it started quite well with an accurate report from a local journalist then a very balanced response from a member of Wasdale MRT. He pointed out that like other first responders they do not judge the situation at the time they simply do what is necessary to get people to safety. A point reinforced by a Health worker later. Both suggested that education after the event might be better than charging people.
Unfortunately as soon as a few listeners come in with the extreme views Vine resorts to mockery & hyperbole and the article loses its seriousness. Not an uncommon event and why I don't usually listen to him.
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In reply to tom84:
Did somebody get out of bed on the wrong side today? seems I touched a nerve here?
Really - it was just an observation and I never once implied that anybody should be ignored when in need.
I was merely pointing out that because that groups irresponsible behaviour - other peoples lives could potentially have been put at risk.
I totally agree that in situations like this.... it is not appropriate to be casting blame as its neither the time or the place and they dealt with what information they had at the time.
I have nothing but praise and support for the work that the MRT do.... and it was never my intention to suggest otherwise.....
> you sound like the daily mail. intentionally climbing off the ground and placing yourself in danger on purpose for fun is a dumb idea as well- but its ok for you to be rescued because us climbers are in pursuit of some noble cause. MRT exist to get people to safety from the mountains and crags, and they volunteer to do it because they are good people sharing valuable skill and time. just because someones an idiot doesn't mean they should be ignored when in need. to reiterate- they are stupid, mountain rescue are an incredible thing, you sound like the daily mail.
Did somebody get out of bed on the wrong side today? seems I touched a nerve here?
Really - it was just an observation and I never once implied that anybody should be ignored when in need.
I was merely pointing out that because that groups irresponsible behaviour - other peoples lives could potentially have been put at risk.
I totally agree that in situations like this.... it is not appropriate to be casting blame as its neither the time or the place and they dealt with what information they had at the time.
I have nothing but praise and support for the work that the MRT do.... and it was never my intention to suggest otherwise.....
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In reply to sweetpea:
You cannot have it both ways. Rescue from an environment where they could / should have easily escaped, or could have spent the night safely if a little cold, and MRT putting their own lives at risk are mutually exclusive.
That said, telling the idiots to sleep it off for a couple of hours and then walk out would probably have been the better approach.
CB
You cannot have it both ways. Rescue from an environment where they could / should have easily escaped, or could have spent the night safely if a little cold, and MRT putting their own lives at risk are mutually exclusive.
That said, telling the idiots to sleep it off for a couple of hours and then walk out would probably have been the better approach.
CB
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In reply to UKC/UKH News:
FWIW here is my contribution to the debate about the rise in apparently unnecessary callouts. I should stress that I am not a member of an MRT and have only passing acquaintance with their organisation. I am however a hill walker & climber who has as yet always got myself out of difficulty on the UK hills.
1. Sheer numbers - there are far more people visiting the hills nowadays - it is thus inevitable that some will be incompetent or unprepared and get into trouble.
2. Mobile phones are our Saviour & our Demon. When they work they can help people navigate the hills but only if they have some mountain skills as well - following the arrow on the GPS route is not navigation. When they fail they take away a prime source of information but route finding in the hills is the fundamental skill that can overcome the loss of map data. Also, a paper map never runs out of power. Finally the obvious point about mobiles is that they give the means of communication to get help and too many people seem to be quick to use it before sorting themselves out.
3. This latter point leads me onto the attitude to risk. I do believe that the way most organisations use Risk Assessments has taken away an individual responsibility to assess risks that we face. If group leaders were to involve clients in the process of RAs then those clients would learn to do it when they went out on their own. Perhaps there is also a developing culture in Society around the idea that 'If I take risks and it goes wrong then someone else will sort me out'
4. Finally I would be interested to know the criteria by which MRTs decide on their response to a call out. I think that 'not going out' is quite rare but is there a Triage system that enables them to make that decision? Perhaps it would help if there were a shared protocol amongst Teams to deal with this. They are highly trained & committed volunteers who currently respond selflessly to call outs and perhaps there is a feeling that 'We can't refuse'. Would a clear system help them deal with an increasing demand on their services?
I would welcome any dialogue on this topic.
FWIW here is my contribution to the debate about the rise in apparently unnecessary callouts. I should stress that I am not a member of an MRT and have only passing acquaintance with their organisation. I am however a hill walker & climber who has as yet always got myself out of difficulty on the UK hills.
1. Sheer numbers - there are far more people visiting the hills nowadays - it is thus inevitable that some will be incompetent or unprepared and get into trouble.
2. Mobile phones are our Saviour & our Demon. When they work they can help people navigate the hills but only if they have some mountain skills as well - following the arrow on the GPS route is not navigation. When they fail they take away a prime source of information but route finding in the hills is the fundamental skill that can overcome the loss of map data. Also, a paper map never runs out of power. Finally the obvious point about mobiles is that they give the means of communication to get help and too many people seem to be quick to use it before sorting themselves out.
3. This latter point leads me onto the attitude to risk. I do believe that the way most organisations use Risk Assessments has taken away an individual responsibility to assess risks that we face. If group leaders were to involve clients in the process of RAs then those clients would learn to do it when they went out on their own. Perhaps there is also a developing culture in Society around the idea that 'If I take risks and it goes wrong then someone else will sort me out'
4. Finally I would be interested to know the criteria by which MRTs decide on their response to a call out. I think that 'not going out' is quite rare but is there a Triage system that enables them to make that decision? Perhaps it would help if there were a shared protocol amongst Teams to deal with this. They are highly trained & committed volunteers who currently respond selflessly to call outs and perhaps there is a feeling that 'We can't refuse'. Would a clear system help them deal with an increasing demand on their services?
I would welcome any dialogue on this topic.
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In reply to UKC/UKH News:
Perhaps the National Park needs to consider the direction they are taking and the implications of striving to make the mountains “accessible to all”, their increasing path building and softening of our mountains is bound to have consequences.
I’m frequently surprised and even horrified to see people in the mountains with no equipment whatsoever, or carrying carrier bags and last weekend even wearing flip-flops!
Building paved paths with steps over any rocky or damp bits will definitely encourage more people into the mountains but it also helps to mask any danger and make people think the mountains are just like the local park.
Perhaps the National Park needs to consider the direction they are taking and the implications of striving to make the mountains “accessible to all”, their increasing path building and softening of our mountains is bound to have consequences.
I’m frequently surprised and even horrified to see people in the mountains with no equipment whatsoever, or carrying carrier bags and last weekend even wearing flip-flops!
Building paved paths with steps over any rocky or damp bits will definitely encourage more people into the mountains but it also helps to mask any danger and make people think the mountains are just like the local park.
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In reply to sweetpea:
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear here...... this is in no way a criticism of the MRT ......they have a job to do and dealt with it appropriately...... I was critisising the irresponsible behaviour of the group.... nothing more.
SP
> Unbelievable..... the MRT have put themselves at risk to rescue these idiots, whilst other far more worthy cases are potentially missed - I hope they send them the bill for all costs incurred....
> SP
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear here...... this is in no way a criticism of the MRT ......they have a job to do and dealt with it appropriately...... I was critisising the irresponsible behaviour of the group.... nothing more.
SP
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In reply to sweetpea:
Why are they idiots, they went on a jolly up the hill in high spirits, in retrospect a foolhardy thing to do, shit happens this is human nature and they needed assistance.
Nearby a couple of experienced climbers decide to climb a route in greasy conditions, it's wetter than they thought and they become cragfast by nightfall and call the MRT, irresponsible idiots or just unlucky, you decide.
Who really is the more worthy cause in this scenario, they are both equal in the eyes of the MRT and so they should be, i don't see a difference.
Why are they idiots, they went on a jolly up the hill in high spirits, in retrospect a foolhardy thing to do, shit happens this is human nature and they needed assistance.
Nearby a couple of experienced climbers decide to climb a route in greasy conditions, it's wetter than they thought and they become cragfast by nightfall and call the MRT, irresponsible idiots or just unlucky, you decide.
Who really is the more worthy cause in this scenario, they are both equal in the eyes of the MRT and so they should be, i don't see a difference.
Post edited at 20:32
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In reply to Andy Clarke1965:
If the climbers had been pissed then they were irresponsible idiots. If sober then bad decision making and judgement. In neither case unlucky.
If the walkers went up the mountain (in high spirits) with the intention of getting stoned but without suitable equipment for a "long stay", I would categorise them ( none of the collective appears to have engaged a brain cell) as idiots.
If the climbers had been pissed then they were irresponsible idiots. If sober then bad decision making and judgement. In neither case unlucky.
If the walkers went up the mountain (in high spirits) with the intention of getting stoned but without suitable equipment for a "long stay", I would categorise them ( none of the collective appears to have engaged a brain cell) as idiots.
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In reply to Moley:
So smokers/ heavy drinkers and the obese being treated at taxpayers expense by the NHS, are idiots for making poor lifestyle choices, should they be charged for their stupidity?
So smokers/ heavy drinkers and the obese being treated at taxpayers expense by the NHS, are idiots for making poor lifestyle choices, should they be charged for their stupidity?
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In reply to Andy Clarke1965:
Why are you so defensive of the climbers ? You are completely missing the point.
They were totally irresponsible full stop....... you almost seem to be promoting what they did as acceptable.
> So smokers/ heavy drinkers and the obese being treated at taxpayers expense by the NHS, are idiots for making poor lifestyle choices, should they be charged for their stupidity?
Why are you so defensive of the climbers ? You are completely missing the point.
They were totally irresponsible full stop....... you almost seem to be promoting what they did as acceptable.
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In reply to Andy Clarke1965:
Wasn't aware I mentioned charging them, please enlighten me where in my post I alluded to it. Yes, smokers, drinkers, obese are idiots for their poor lifestyle choices, but if they also climbed mountains when pissed, stoned or probably unable to get down again I would still call them idiots.
Wasn't aware I mentioned charging them, please enlighten me where in my post I alluded to it. Yes, smokers, drinkers, obese are idiots for their poor lifestyle choices, but if they also climbed mountains when pissed, stoned or probably unable to get down again I would still call them idiots.
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In reply to Moley:
I think this thread is getting a little out of hand and needs closing.
I think we all accept that what they did was foolish so let's just move on and accept that we share different views on the topic?
> Wasn't aware I mentioned charging them, please enlighten me where in my post I alluded to it. Yes, smokers, drinkers, obese are idiots for their poor lifestyle choices, but if they also climbed mountains when pissed, stoned or probably unable to get down again I would still call them idiots.
I think this thread is getting a little out of hand and needs closing.
I think we all accept that what they did was foolish so let's just move on and accept that we share different views on the topic?
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In reply to sweetpea:
You don't even know what the definition of a climber is, these guys were neither climbers or walkers, lets just say high spirited townies.
Besides the media originaly said they were all incapicitated due to canabis use, now it seems only one guy was smoking and the others drinking, who to believe.
This really is a non story working the Daily mail readers into a froth.
You don't even know what the definition of a climber is, these guys were neither climbers or walkers, lets just say high spirited townies.
Besides the media originaly said they were all incapicitated due to canabis use, now it seems only one guy was smoking and the others drinking, who to believe.
This really is a non story working the Daily mail readers into a froth.
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In reply to Moley:
You don't get it do you, in the eyes of non climbers/ Daily mail readers bonafide climbers are idiots! so whats the difference.
You don't get it do you, in the eyes of non climbers/ Daily mail readers bonafide climbers are idiots! so whats the difference.
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In reply to Andy Clarke1965:
You know nothing about me so let's not get into another argument. You are flogging a dead horse here... move on....only one person here "working the daily mail readers into a froth"
> You don't even know what the definition of a climber is, these guys were neither climbers or walkers, lets just say high spirited townies.
> Besides the media originaly said they were all incapicitated due to canabis use, now it seems only one guy was smoking and the others drinking, who to believe.
> This really is a non story working the Daily mail readers into a froth.
You know nothing about me so let's not get into another argument. You are flogging a dead horse here... move on....only one person here "working the daily mail readers into a froth"
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In reply to sweetpea:
Yawn so why refer to them as climbers, they went for a walk to see the sunset.
PS. i am not saying what they did or didn't do is acceptable, i'm not judging them full stop.
Yawn so why refer to them as climbers, they went for a walk to see the sunset.
PS. i am not saying what they did or didn't do is acceptable, i'm not judging them full stop.
Post edited at 21:54
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In reply to Andy Clarke1965:
Whatever....... you are splitting hairs now and avoiding the main issue.... let's just leave it there please move on.
> Yawn so why refer to them as climbers, they went for a walk to see the sunset.
Whatever....... you are splitting hairs now and avoiding the main issue.... let's just leave it there please move on.
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In reply to UKC/UKH News:
If they were at Burnmoor Tarn then why was the whole team deployed with ambulance, air support etc. (Assuming the report is correct)
Surely send one person up to assess, right lads, I'm from the mountain rescue, just follow me and we'll have you down in a jiffy. Or if that wasn't possible, then send more of the team up.
If they were at Burnmoor Tarn then why was the whole team deployed with ambulance, air support etc. (Assuming the report is correct)
Surely send one person up to assess, right lads, I'm from the mountain rescue, just follow me and we'll have you down in a jiffy. Or if that wasn't possible, then send more of the team up.
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In reply to Michael Hood:
Easy to say with hindsight in possesion of the facts, if the original information referred to a drug overdose then that could be a serious situation requiring some serious interventions and air evacuation, which a single team member would struggle to deliver. Initial information can often be very sketchy ("my friend has fallen off a route called Goliath". The "s'groove part" came much later) with the full seriousness (or not) of an incident only becoming apparent after an initial assessment by the first team member on scene.
> If they were at Burnmoor Tarn then why was the whole team deployed with ambulance, air support etc. (Assuming the report is correct)
> Surely send one person up to assess, right lads, I'm from the mountain rescue, just follow me and we'll have you down in a jiffy. Or if that wasn't possible, then send more of the team up.
Easy to say with hindsight in possesion of the facts, if the original information referred to a drug overdose then that could be a serious situation requiring some serious interventions and air evacuation, which a single team member would struggle to deliver. Initial information can often be very sketchy ("my friend has fallen off a route called Goliath". The "s'groove part" came much later) with the full seriousness (or not) of an incident only becoming apparent after an initial assessment by the first team member on scene.
Post edited at 08:11
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In reply to UKC/UKH News: Don't you think we might be missing the point a little bit, yes out was a pretty pointless call out but I'm sure they get quite a few pointless ones a year. Isn't it better that this has made national news and maybe educated people about staying safe on the hills and that it's probably not a smart idea to ingest intoxicants if you don't know where you are. But if nothing else it's raised awareness about the hard work Mountain Rescue do, and hopefully increased donations.
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In reply to super/frets:
The trouble is the number of silly call outs they get. And I'm not sure this particular case has better informed anyone!
The trouble is the number of silly call outs they get. And I'm not sure this particular case has better informed anyone!
In reply to UKC/UKH News:
>'After the joint operation, Cumbria Constabulary...."
Nicely snuck in there UKC, The Sun would be proud of that
>'After the joint operation, Cumbria Constabulary...."
Nicely snuck in there UKC, The Sun would be proud of that
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In reply to UKC/UKH News:
Look i dont know about you guys but i learnt an important skill when i was young.... i call it “find my way home”
No matter how drunk or stoned i was as a teenager or older, i always found my way home usually with my kebab intact
My point is why couldnt they just back track? Didnt we all learn that skill also?how did these guys ever find their way home even when playing out as kids or on the town ect?
Look i dont know about you guys but i learnt an important skill when i was young.... i call it “find my way home”
No matter how drunk or stoned i was as a teenager or older, i always found my way home usually with my kebab intact
My point is why couldnt they just back track? Didnt we all learn that skill also?how did these guys ever find their way home even when playing out as kids or on the town ect?
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In reply to Scallop:
I used to call it sleeping in a ditch
> Look i dont know about you guys but i learnt an important skill when i was young.... i call it “find my way home”
I used to call it sleeping in a ditch
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In reply to Scallop:
I think this hits the nail on the head.
One issue is whether or not they are idiots for getting themselves into such a situation - in my opinion no more so than in a case of misjudgement in any other situation, even in the case of bad luck. In this case the unpredicted weather was storms in their own mind.
But completely aside his how to react when one of you is unwillingly knocking on the door of the 16th dimension. Unless it was the first time they'd ever dabbled, any partaker knows that (unless you're brownied) you'll be good to go in an hour or so. Even if night was approaching - I would expect any budding psychonaut to be up for a (rather minor, at that) adventure: it's one and a half miles downhill to Boot pub, for god's sake.
So barring a medical emergency, I think they should have stuck it out. Which is true for an awful lot of rescues - good on the MRT for putting up with the lot of them.
> Look i dont know about you guys but i learnt an important skill when i was young.... i call it “find my way home”
I think this hits the nail on the head.
One issue is whether or not they are idiots for getting themselves into such a situation - in my opinion no more so than in a case of misjudgement in any other situation, even in the case of bad luck. In this case the unpredicted weather was storms in their own mind.
But completely aside his how to react when one of you is unwillingly knocking on the door of the 16th dimension. Unless it was the first time they'd ever dabbled, any partaker knows that (unless you're brownied) you'll be good to go in an hour or so. Even if night was approaching - I would expect any budding psychonaut to be up for a (rather minor, at that) adventure: it's one and a half miles downhill to Boot pub, for god's sake.
So barring a medical emergency, I think they should have stuck it out. Which is true for an awful lot of rescues - good on the MRT for putting up with the lot of them.
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